Magic and Information Theory

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sciborg2's picture
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Magic and Information Theory

Pulling this out of the new settings thread:

I know Warren Ellis has called magic the cheat codes of the universe and attempted to relate it to information theory. This sort of does make sense to me, and supports the "laws of magic" such as part effects whole and like effects like.

Basically there would be common "bits" between certain objects/concepts/etc. Assume a sort of "conservation of information" so these bits that describe the universe minimize duplication. So the concept of, say, love is encoded once. All things in the universe that relate to love share at least some of the same love bits.

(For an example of how this works in programming, here's a piece on minimizing data duplication in functional programming languages:

http://blog.higher-order.net/2009/02/01/understanding-clojures-persisten...

)

So somewhere in total sum of information about a feather is information about flight. The magician then follows the links of the underlying data structures of the universe, and gets to the platonic concept of Flight. From this root, the magician can then add to the information in the universe by combining information about himself with the concept of Flight.

Later, other magicians will access the human flying bits, with the only edit being the edit/replace of themselves instead of the original magician or the info of themselves in a new space/time position.

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cromlich's picture
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Re: Magic and Information Theory

That could be a Guvner's view on magic, cheat codes of the universe seems like finding loopholes and hacking reality.

nijineko's picture
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Re: Magic and Information Theory

one wonders just how much information transfer is involved in quantum entanglement. does the information of a collision forever remain upon the particles that collided? what about when one of the particles from the first collision impact another particle? is the memory of the first collision transferred to the third particle? if so, how long does the information state remain? is there degradation of the memory over time? or does the information persist indefinitely? can that information be reliably extracted from the third particle? from the 42 particle? is there a relative strength to the information and/or informational layers? conversely, does there exist a delicate enough sensitivity to detect and decode said information? is there a direction of transfer of information? does an impacted particle give an equal/complete/incomplete amount of information to the impacting particle?

just some related thoughts.

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sciborg2's picture
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Re: Magic and Information Theory

Hmmm, well degradation of the information could explain why spells often have limited duration.

What interesting is the idea that things that valuable touch on the idea of sacrifice. So gold and diamonds might be held to be worthless in certain worlds and so perhaps wouldn't be valuable spell components.

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nijineko's picture
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Re: Magic and Information Theory

did you want a history on how sacrifice came to be included as a concept in magical theory?

or an analysis of how components seems to use not much more than the law of attraction and the law of similarity as opposed to any intrinsic value. value seems to be placed on certain spells, perhaps more of an attempt to limit the usage of certain spells than any real associative laws or framework of concepts in d&d's magical system?

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sciborg2's picture
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Re: Magic and Information Theory

nijineko wrote:
did you want a history on how sacrifice came to be included as a concept in magical theory?

or an analysis of how components seems to use not much more than the law of attraction and the law of similarity as opposed to any intrinsic value. value seems to be placed on certain spells, perhaps more of an attempt to limit the usage of certain spells than any real associative laws or framework of concepts in d&d's magical system?

Oh, I'd love both if you want to share!

Also, translation of your sig would be great. Smiling

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nijineko's picture
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Re: Magic and Information Theory

here's a comment i made in another thread that you might find interesting:

nijineko wrote:
a magilogical society based on hidden technology would likely have some sort of user access method to restrict, meter, and/or control access. if the demise of the original users or coders was foreseen, or even perceived quickly enough before said demise became endemic, then a default access system could have been enacted - indeed, may have existed prior without any special enactment need. the material, somatic, and verbal components could represent the symbolic access keys coded into the system for granting access rights. the destruction of the material components is represents those forms of access that are time delimited or single-sign-on.

the exact components may be based on a logic, or database structure completely alien to our forms of logic and association. the laws of similarity, opposition, and so forth which are commonly ascribed to 'real life magic' may have no basis for logic, association, or reason in the mentalities responsible for enacting the system in the first place.

furthermore, database corruption may have occurred over time, leading to oddball quirks, loopholes, and similar hackable points. discovery of backdoor passwords may constitute epic seeds and related levels of expression of power.

i will keep my 'history' simple as i include among my sources things that others discard and disregard. first off, this will be from a creationist point of view, for a number of reasons i won't get into now. it started with adam and eve. they were the first (on this earth, anyway) to perform the practice of offering sacrifices, for certain reasons. this practice passed into magical tradition from religious tradition as a means of propitiating whatever power(s) and/or being(s) the practitioner was seeking to engage. i will not get into the mechanics of how such traditions survived the flood, but it is obvious that they both did. today, the roots of such traditions have been mostly forgotten, and/or rewritten, especially in light of the mutual attitudes of the more reactionary of the judeao-christian spectrum of believers with regards to most of the magical traditions and practitioners.

regarding d&d components, if you analyze what is involved, you will find that the laws of similarity and attraction are only spottily applied.

let us take fireball: bat guano and sulphur. bat guano is a potential source of saltpeter and taken with sulphur are two of the three components of gunpowder. why not the third? why not a lit candle, or the ash of a bonfire? in any case we have an application of both laws aforementioned, but only part way done.

looking at stoneskin: granite and 250gp worth of diamond dust. not even close to being covered by the cost of a component pouch. and not eligible for eschew materials. granite makes sense associatively, though diamond does not. sure, diamond is hard, but it is also frangible and can potentially be broken merely by dropping it on to a slab of concrete or with a sharp blow. (after all, they break diamonds into smaller pieces by using a metal blade and a bottle or tool to tap it. it will also react chemically with certain substances and dissolve or convert.) but stoneskin is an otherwise easy spell to subtract large amounts of damage from every blow. adamantine armor costs a lot, so "obviously" so should a spell which approaches its effects. and there is your real "law of association" in operation for that spell. ^^ they further limit it by how much damage it can take before discharging. to be honest, the armor is much cheaper in the long run.

look at mage armor: arguably superior to stoneskin in that it also affects incorporeal creatures, most of which would bypass stoneskin anyway due to the nature of their damage types. but it only requires a piece of cured leather. how is a piece of sun-dried skin in any way associated with a wall of force that is body shaped, jointed, and completely unimpeding? by comparison, wall of force needs a pinch of powder from a clear gem - but not even diamond, nor of any particular cost. what do either of these have to do with a force effect, which in essence is an area of exclusion or separation. if anything considering similarity, something that divides or separates should be used, as well as something clear, and something that is resistant to magic. a cold iron knife or plate with a clear gem set into it or at least included along with might be more appropriate material components for a force effect.

in conclusion, little thought has been given to the laws of attraction, repulsion, sacrifice, and similarity despite the Vancian origin of the d&d system of magic. and even then it is sporadic and inconsistent.

i think that in practice that most dms ignore material components or just handwave it. a few at least require you to subtract the gp value listed in the spell from your ongoing total of cash on hand. which, ironically, would be an application of the law of sacrifice. ^^

.

edit: almost forgot - my sig is a transliteration of "Does the walker choose the path, or the path choose the walker?"

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sciborg2's picture
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Re: Magic and Information Theory

First, thanks for the translation mate!

On the inclusion of Eden -> would you say that their invention/discovery of magical practices set the stage for how later magic would be done? So they are akin to an artistic movement. In theory there might be other ways to do magic but millennia of doing it this way has affected the underlying reality to make it easier?

I definitely agree that when it comes to D&D there isn't much adherence to any coherent application of the Laws of Similarity and Contagion. But my issue with trying to posit that technology - even SF pseduo-science tech - accounts for magic/psionics is how the system aligns with classes and divides psionics from magic, and magic into (at least) divine and arcane. That doesn't even get into planar travel and effects relating to alignment.

I think you've given the best explanation I've seen, noting the corrupted system leading to exploits in the form spell components and such corruption accounting for limitations of spells.

But there's still a lot of to try and justify. Mind you, I think there is room for the idea of technologically advanced civilizations providing the initial foundations of magic, I just think an attempt at trying to give a Hard SF explanation is fraught with problems.

Of course, trying to explain and conjecture how it might work is rather fun. Smiling

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nijineko's picture
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Re: Magic and Information Theory

sciborg2 wrote:
First, thanks for the translation mate!

On the inclusion of Eden -> would you say that their invention/discovery of magical practices set the stage for how later magic would be done? So they are akin to an artistic movement. In theory there might be other ways to do magic but millennia of doing it this way has affected the underlying reality to make it easier?

that's just the thing, it wasn't magic. we call it religion, but for them it was likely more science. after all, they spoke directly with the race/entities that indicated that there were good reasons for doing things that way. they entered into a covenant with those entities in the form of an exchange. they, and their descendants, do certain things, and in exchange receive certain things. it was those of adam and eve's descendants who decided not to buy into that system that invented magic as a replacement, and a renegade of the race/entities themselves who encouraged the break-away descendants in that path and incidentally provided somewhat of a basis for magical theory to diverge from the science originally presented.

Quote:
I definitely agree that when it comes to D&D there isn't much adherence to any coherent application of the Laws of Similarity and Contagion. But my issue with trying to posit that technology - even SF pseduo-science tech - accounts for magic/psionics is how the system aligns with classes and divides psionics from magic, and magic into (at least) divine and arcane. That doesn't even get into planar travel and effects relating to alignment.

I think you've given the best explanation I've seen, noting the corrupted system leading to exploits in the form spell components and such corruption accounting for limitations of spells.

But there's still a lot of to try and justify. Mind you, I think there is room for the idea of technologically advanced civilizations providing the initial foundations of magic, I just think an attempt at trying to give a Hard SF explanation is fraught with problems.

Of course, trying to explain and conjecture how it might work is rather fun. Smiling

well, classes are pretty simply arranged in groups accounts to which individual accounts are assigned. each group has a series of access levels open to it, and groups themselves range from guest all the way up to root. as your access permissions progress, you are given more access based on the group policies that your group is restricted to. perhaps you eventually could be assigned to more than one access group.

for example, start off as a wizard - user access. achieve epic power - gain admin access. gain "divine" power - gain root access. but then even admin and root access may be restricted further by global policies as represented by epic seeds and divine portfolios.

as you may have guessed, i've already given this form of magic considerable thought, as it is, in fact, the precise system i use for one of my campaign / story settings. =D

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nijineko's picture
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Re: Magic and Information Theory

sciborg2 wrote:
First, thanks for the translation mate!

On the inclusion of Eden -> would you say that their invention/discovery of magical practices set the stage for how later magic would be done? So they are akin to an artistic movement. In theory there might be other ways to do magic but millennia of doing it this way has affected the underlying reality to make it easier?

that's just the thing. it wasn't magic. we may call it religion, but to them, it was probably more like science. after all, they directly and personally communicated face-to-face with the race / entities that laid out the proposal and explained the consequences and benefits in the first place. adam and eve knowingly entered into an agreement / covenant for themselves and on behalf of all of their descendants in the nature of an exchange. they would do certain things, and in return would receive certain things. it was only later when some of their descendants decided not to buy into the system that those descendants invented the idea of magic. furthermore they were led to that path by a renegade of the race / entities themselves who encouraged this departure from the original agreement.

Quote:
I definitely agree that when it comes to D&D there isn't much adherence to any coherent application of the Laws of Similarity and Contagion. But my issue with trying to posit that technology - even SF pseduo-science tech - accounts for magic/psionics is how the system aligns with classes and divides psionics from magic, and magic into (at least) divine and arcane. That doesn't even get into planar travel and effects relating to alignment.

I think you've given the best explanation I've seen, noting the corrupted system leading to exploits in the form spell components and such corruption accounting for limitations of spells.

But there's still a lot of to try and justify. Mind you, I think there is room for the idea of technologically advanced civilizations providing the initial foundations of magic, I just think an attempt at trying to give a Hard SF explanation is fraught with problems.

Of course, trying to explain and conjecture how it might work is rather fun. Smiling

well, the basic idea is that classes represent group accounts that your individual account has been assigned to. each group account has a series of permissions available to it. as you "progress" in the class, you gain more permissions up to the limit of the particular group you've been assigned to. it is equally possible to be assigned to more than one group. various groups exist from guest to user, from admin to root. spell-likes and supernaturals could be guest account or special limited user accounts. other classes would fall under user or in the case of things like wizards and erudites: power users. epic power and "divine" power would be represented by admin and root accounts. yet even those could be limited by global policies which delineate over what things the power applies to, such as epic seeds and "divine" portfolios.

as you may have guessed, i've given this particular form of magic considerable thought. after all, it is the precise system i use in one of my campaign / story settings. =D

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sciborg2's picture
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Re: Magic and Information Theory

I like this idea of accounts with various permission settings.

In your campaign is all magic granted by advanced technology or is it more that the universe's foundations are akin/analogous to a computer network?

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nijineko's picture
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Re: Magic and Information Theory

depends on the setting. i have more than one. both exists across the gamut of my settings.

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