Loth watching.

Submitted by Gerzel on Sat, 2005-09-03 23:28

RPG Discussion

I'm just curios to see all the different types of loths there are out there. Basically I'm using the term 'loth loosly to mean any NE exemplar; thus night hags are included, as are those exemplars that are constructs.

We have:
Baernaloths
Ultraloths
Arcanaloths'
Nycaloths
Piscaloths
Canoloths
Mezzoloths
...

Please help me named those that I missed and well any other races/creatures that coem to mind over carceri, the grey waste and gehenna.

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Sat, 2005-09-03 23:31

Gerzel

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Loth watching.

I am going to run a poll to see which loth type is in the greatest need and most deserving to have more stuff written about them.

Sat, 2005-09-03 23:42

(Reply to #2) #3

Smeazel

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You've left out gacholoths, which are possibly my favorite kind of yugoloth. (They first appeared in a Dungeon adventure, and later in one of the MC Annuals.)

Oh...also, marraenoloths. Ooh, and dergholoths. Can't forget them. And yagnoloths, of course. (And possibly others; I'm just going from memory here and there may be some more I'm forgetting.)

'Gerzel' wrote:

Basically I'm using the term 'loth loosly to mean any NE exemplar; thus night hags are included, as are those exemplars that are constructs.

Well, in that case, you can't forget hordlings and diakka, the two most common creatures on the Gray Wastes. (Neither of them is really necessarily an "exemplar", but they have at least as good a claim to the title as night hags do.)

Quote:

Please help me named those that I missed and well any other races/creatures that coem to mind over carceri, the grey waste and gehenna.

What, you're including Carceri and Gehenna? Well, if you're including Carceri, you certainly have to include the gehreleths. And...well, actually there are a whole lot of other creatures also inhabiting Carceri, the Gray Waste, and Gehenna (phiuls and vaporighu, to name just a few more); your best bet is to look in the encounter tables in the Planescape Monstrous Compendium II for a more complete (though still not exhaustive) list...

But I'd limit the poll to something a little less broad. Like I said, there are a whole lot of different types of creatures inhabiting those planes; maybe you should stick with just one of the planes for the poll, or even just with actual yugoloths.

Sun, 2005-09-04 09:21

(Reply to #3) #4

ripvanwormer

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Gehreleths: Farastu, Kelubar, Shator
Barghest
Canomorph, Vulvitor
Canomorph, Shadarakul
Diakk
Gautiere
Hordling
Nightmare
Night hag
Vaporighu
Yeth hound
Yugoloth, Arrow Battleloth (Dragon #306)
Yugoloth, Axe Battleloth (Dragon #306)
Yugoloth, Crossbow Battleloth (Dragon #306)
Yugoloth, Pick Battleloth (Dragon #306)
Yugoloth, Spiked Chain Battleloth (Dragon #306)
Yugoloth, Sword Battleloth (Dragon #306)
Yugoloth, Arcanaloth (MMII)
Yugoloth, Canoloth (MotP, MMIII)
Yugoloth, Dergholoth
Yugoloth, Echinoloth (Stormwrack)
Yugoloth, Gacholoth
Yugoloth, Hydroloth
Yugoloth, Marraenoloth (MMII)
Yugoloth, Mezzoloth (MotP, MMIII)
Yugoloth, Nycaloth (MotP, MMIII)
Yugoloth, Piscoloth (FF)
Yugoloth, Skeroloth (FF)
Yugoloth, Ultraloth (MotP, MMIII)
Yugoloth, Yagnoloth (MMII)
Baernaloth

Sun, 2005-09-04 11:07

(Reply to #4) #5

eldersphinx

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'ripvanwormer' wrote:

Yugoloth, Spiked Chain Battleloth (Dragon #306)

Is there anyone else who finds this deeply twisted, disturbing and wrong? Even moreso than the other 'battleloths', I mean.

Sun, 2005-09-04 13:59

(Reply to #5) #6

Smeazel

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Actually, I'd forgotten about this yesterday, but I actually have a very extensive (although not entirely complete) spreadsheet of planar creatures from canonical products, which I can sort by plane of origin to get just the ones native to those three planes. (It's actually a little out of date now--I last updated it in 2003--but Rip's probably listed all the ones from the most recent products anyway.) So here goes. In addition to the ones Rip listed:

From Carceri:
Abomination, Hecatoncheires (from the Epic Level Handbook--plane of origin not specified canonically, but I'm making an educated guess that Carceri's where they were imprisoned)
Abrian (originally appeared in the PSMC2; 3E stats in the Fiend Folio--actually, it's canonically said they "originated in Carceri or the Gray Waste and quickly spread to neighboring planes"; my choice to list them under Carceri rather than the Gray Waste was admittedly rather arbitrary)
Beast of Malar (from Monsters of Faerûn)
Dragon, Tarterian (from Dragon #300)
Hobyah (from Standing Stone)
Mara (from the 2E Monstrous Compendium Forgotten Realms Appendix II)
Monkey, Carceri (mentioned in In the Cage: A Guide to Sigil)
Terlen (originally appeared in the PSMC2; 3E stats in the Fiend Folio)
Titan (sort of--titans aren't _native_ to Carceri, per se, but a lot of powerful evil titans are imprisoned there)
Utukku (from Dragon #89)
Vaath (originally from the Planes of Chaos Monstrous Appendix, 3E stats in the Fiend Folio)
Vargouille (originally appeared in the 1E MM2; reappeared in the PSMC; 3E stats in the MM.)

Gehenna:
Batfly (mentioned in In the Cage: A Guide to Sigil)
Beast of Xvim (from Monsters of Faerûn)
Dragon, Pyroclastic (from Dragon #300)
Foulwing (originally from MCA1 (actually, almost certainly originally from a 2E adventure before that, but I'm not sure which one); 3E stats in the City of the Spider Queen Web Enhancement)
Linqua (from Planes of Conflict Monstrous Supplement)
The Maeldur Et Kavurik (from the Hellbound boxed set)
Phiuhl (originally from the Planes of Conflict Monstrous Supplement; 3E stats in the Fiend Folio)
Slasrath (originally from the Planes of Conflict Monstrous Supplement; 3E stats in the Fiend Folio)

From the Gray Waste:
Ammut (from the Monstrous Compendium Al Qadim Appendix)
Avari (from Dragon #101)
Elemental, Darkness (from Dragon #227)
Equar, Rosinante (from Dragon #243)
Skinrat (mentioned in In the Cage: A Guide to Sigil)
Skotos (from Dragon #162)
Wastrel (from the PSMC2)
Yugoloth, Baernoloth (from the Planes of Conflict Monstrous Appendix--yeah, you already mentioned baernoloths, but Rip didn't, so I thought I'd mention them again anyway)

Then, additional creatures found throughout the Lower Planes, with no particular plane of origin specified:

Abomination, Infernal (Epic Level Handbook)
Burzugdur (Dragon #86)
Burzugdur, Nalg (Dragon #86)
Darklore (Hellbound / MCA4)
Dragon, Styx (Dragon #300--probably identical with the Shadowdrake of PSMC2)
Fiendish Familiar (Fiend Folio)
Larva (originally from the 1E MM; reappeared in PSMC)
Yugoloth, Guardian, Greater/Least/Lesser (2E Monstrous Manual)

That's a heck of a lot of creatures, which is why, as I said, I recommend putting some tighter limits on your poll. Heck, even if you limit it only to true yugoloths, that's still more than twenty different creatures to choose between.

Sun, 2005-09-04 14:15

(Reply to #6) #7

Clueless

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If you want to maake that file available to everyone, we'd love to host it (much like we host the gods list)

As for the poll - that's actually a hard choice...hm. I think I'll go with Gehenna - I'd like to see a little more depth on those mountians.

Sun, 2005-09-04 14:26

(Reply to #7) #8

Smeazel

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Sure; I certainly don't have a problem with making the file available to everyone. As I said, I haven't updated it since 2003, and it's by no means complete, but it does still include over a thousand planar monsters from TSR/WotC products through the various editions.

So what exactly should I do to have the file hosted on planewalker.com? Would I just submit it as a "Misc. Article"?

Sun, 2005-09-04 14:28

(Reply to #8) #9

ripvanwormer

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We forgot about marrashi; the marrash is a winged, jackal-headed plague-bearing fiend originally described in the Al-Qadim Monstrous Compendium, and most recently found in the Monster Manual II.

That they come from the Outer Planes is not in doubt, but I don't think it's ever been revealed exactly where. Somebody suggested "They are relatively weak fiends, who were exiled to the Waste when the Yugoloths migrated to the marrash homeland."

Sun, 2005-09-04 14:33

(Reply to #9) #10

ripvanwormer

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This list might also be of help.

And this one.

Sun, 2005-09-04 14:36

(Reply to #10) #11

Smeazel

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Marrashi are listed in my spreadsheet as coming from Acheron, which is why I didn't list them, but I think that was just a noncanonical assumption on my part. (In my spreadsheet, I made such assumptions for many creatures that didn't have their planes of origin canonically specified.) They could just as easily come from Gehenna or Baator, yes. (The Gray Waste and Carceri strike me as much less likely given their lawful evil alignment.)

Sun, 2005-09-04 14:57

(Reply to #11) #12

Nemui

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Loth watching.

Since we're talking monster lists ... Clueless, what's the status of that initiative to get Rip's critter list up on PW as an active and separate sub-feature of the Creature Codex?

As the only surviving member of the Codex manager triumvirate, I asked you about this a while back, and you said you'd get back to me on that...

Sun, 2005-09-04 15:00

(Reply to #12) #13

ripvanwormer

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'Smeazel' wrote:

(The Gray Waste and Carceri strike me as much less likely given their lawful evil alignment.)

That's true; on the other hand, the Gray Waste has a heavy association with disease, which the marrashi might find welcoming. I like the idea that they're exiles there, however.

Mon, 2005-09-05 20:16

(Reply to #13) #14

Gerzel

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ok a quick rundown

The Yugoloths (Baernaloths + Other 'loths) originally hailed from the gray waste and the loths moved into gehena

The Gereleths come from carceri.

This leads me to wonder, what if there were a third race that comes from gehenna?

I think I'll write one up. Also including nice bits about a secret past war of conquest and extirmination wherebye the yugoloths took over gehenna, and possably are doing the same thing to there gereliths.

Mon, 2005-09-05 21:41

(Reply to #14) #15

Shemeska the Ma...

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'Gerzel' wrote:

The Gereleths come from carceri.

They were created on the Waste and either fled to Carceri or went there in voluntary exile with Apomps.

Quote:

This leads me to wonder, what if there were a third race that comes from gehenna?

It's possible that something was there before the 'loths overwhelmed Gehenna and linked themselves to the plane. It's also possible that the 'loths, or their creators, might have had a hand in the creation of the plane of Gehenna itself (much as the actions of Apomps might have led to the creation of Carceri), making any other races native to Gehenna an unintended byproduct of that act of creation, ones that they would then minimize or scour from the face of their new playground.

That they created Gehenna intentionally, or that it was acidentally ripped out of the Waste during the early days of the 'loths (possibly by infighting among the early Baern if they were not initially unified) is the route that I personally go with.

Mon, 2005-09-05 21:49

(Reply to #15) #16

ripvanwormer

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Barghests and vaporighus are both native to Gehenna (and the marrash are another possibility). And linquas and phiuls.

We don't know, of course, if any of these species were in Gehenna before the 'loths came (or, as Shemmy noted, if there even was a Gehenna before the 'loths came). This is my story of where vaporighus come from.

Mon, 2005-09-05 22:07

(Reply to #16) #17

Gerzel

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'ripvanwormer' wrote:

Barghests and vaporighus are both native to Gehenna (and the marrash are another possibility). And linquas and phiuls.

Perhaps the history is a lie, perhaps it is true.

Perhaps the Barghests and Vaporigus are lower forms of a species that simply never gets the chance to grow into the stronger forms.

Mon, 2005-09-05 23:06

(Reply to #17) #18

Smeazel

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'Gerzel' wrote:

This leads me to wonder, what if there were a third race that comes from gehenna?

Heck. the same thing could be asked of nearly all the "intermediate" planes (i.e. those that correspond to "in-between" alignments). Did (or do) they have their own exemplar races?

There are indications in canon that Acheron did have such an exemplar race, namely the hassitor. What happened to them? Well, that's up to individual DMs, though I have my own ideas.

A good case could be made that the formians are the exemplar race of Arcadia (or were, though they're spreading into Mechanus now).

I designed my own extinct exemplar type from Pandemonium.

As a matter of fact, I also had my own type of exemplars from Gehenna--though I later decided they weren't originally from Gehenna after all...

(Actually, back before the guardinals were introduced, I'd designed my own neutral good exemplar type too...)

Exemplar races don't necessarily last forever. We know from canon that a race of Ancient Baatorians predated the baatezu. There are indications that something predated the slaadi on Limbo, as well (this is something I've developed a great deal for my own purposes). Could there be/have been an exemplar race on Gehenna? Absolutely; you're certainly not the first person to think of it. But if you want to develop that idea further, by all means go for it.

Mon, 2005-09-05 23:26

(Reply to #18) #19

Gerzel

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For exemplar of Pandemonium I would honestly say that the howlers fit the bill.

They are intelligent but insane so that their language simply cannot be understoot by anythign else.

Mon, 2005-09-05 23:41

(Reply to #19) #20

Smeazel

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'Gerzel' wrote:

For exemplar of Pandemonium I would honestly say that the howlers fit the bill.

But all the other exemplar types comprise multiple varieties. There are, for example, at least six kinds of slaad (not counting the ones from the Epic Level Handbook), fifteen kinds of modron (not counting Primus itself, or the rogue modrons that could be considered to form a separate kind), seven kinds of guardinal, seven kinds of archon, who knows how many kinds of tanar'ri (quite possibly infinitely many)...but only one kind of howler.

'Course, if you want howlers to be the exemplar race of Pandemonium, you don't have to let that stop you. Maybe you can decide there are other kinds of howler, but they're just not as well known (or have all gone extinct except for the remaining howler type we all know and love). Personally, I'm not particularly fond of the idea of howlers as the exemplars of Pandemonium, but that's just a personal preference; there's really no reason they can't be if you want them to.

Tue, 2005-09-06 00:01

(Reply to #20) #21

Bob the Efreet

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'Gerzel' wrote:

Perhaps the history is a lie, perhaps it is true.

And sometimes it is the lie that is truth. This does involve 'loths, after all.

__________________

Pants of the North!

Tue, 2005-09-06 21:35

(Reply to #21) #22

Surreal Personae

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Are some of those creatures mentioned, like the gehereleths, CE rather than NE?

Tue, 2005-09-06 22:06

(Reply to #22) #23

ripvanwormer

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'Surreal Personae' wrote:

Are some of those creatures mentioned, like the gehereleths, CE rather than NE?

Gehreleths were said to be chaotic evil in 2e, but they're listed as neutral evil in 3e.

The truth is that they're probably somewhere in between, as befits their plane.

Barghests are lawful evil, I believe.

Tue, 2005-09-06 22:30

(Reply to #23) #24

Gerzel

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Lets see,
Carceri is an embodyment of prisons and bondage as well as cruelty
The Waste is an embodyment of apathy, despair, and bleakness
What is Gehenna?

Wed, 2005-09-07 08:41

(Reply to #24) #25

Ailanreanter

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I would guess Gehenna is the embodiment of domination through sheer will and destruction.

Although I could be wrong:
"It's not that the ends justify the means on Gehenna, it's that on Gehenna there is no need to justify anything. Those who dream of justice do not truly understand what Gehenna means."

Wed, 2005-09-07 10:33

(Reply to #25) #26

ripvanwormer

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Carceri is betrayal and deception, primarily - betrayal that imprisons the betrayer in an ever-growing web of lies and deceit.

The Gray Waste is despair, suffering, apathy, hopelessness, disease, and the endless gnawing hunger of an evil determined to drain everything worthwhile of all that gave it meaning.

Gehenna is the exploitation of the weak for the benefit of the strong of will; it's manipulation and intrigue, hidden conspiracies who draw from the advantages of law but aren't afraid to break the rules when it suits them. It's capitalism at its worst and most corrupt, the opposite of Bytopia, which is trade and cooperation for the benefit of all concerned.

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