Limbo: Renovating the Residents

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Kobold Avenger's picture
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Limbo: Renovating the Residents

I certainly have my issues with the Slaad being to limited as exemplars of pure chaos, and being rather one-sided with their bias towards Evil. I know that they're described as being locked in that form by the Slaad lords because they were possibly too chaotic (Tales of the Infinite Staircase), or that they are possibly beings from multiple realities (4e, looks like something Cordell wrote).

Still they aren't exactly what I imagine for beings from a plane of Chaos, that's very good by itself as a plane of chaos. There's those monsters that were introduced in an issue of Dragon, shortly after the 3e MotP was released that I felt were interesting. But some were non-outsiders or things with alignments other than CN.

There's also the Proteans mainly covered in the Pathfinder Bestiary 2, and introduced as a (non-IP restricted) replacement for the Slaad in Pathfinder's Golarion Campaign. Who have some interesting ideas, even if they're mostly based around a snake-like form with some varieties. They at least have differing motivations.

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Re: Limbo: Renovating the Residents

I think Shemmy described the proteans as "slaadi on crack." Really, I'm happy with considering the proteans and slaadi as part of the same squamous race.

The Ogdoad in Egyptian mythology variously took the form of snakes, toads, or baboons.

My view, though, is that a froglike form is pretty much ideal for ever-shifting terrain of Limbo. Equally capable of walking on chunks of solid matter, swimming through liquid matter, leaping across chasms of gaseous matter, and hopping toward higher or lower islands of solidity, they're more appropriate than fishlike, humanlike, or avian creatures would be. Frogs have long been symbols of chaos; slaadi manage to be both creepy and more full of personality than a purely amorphous blob or indiscriminate shapeshifter with no fixed form of its own would be. Slaadi are likable, which ultimately matters more than the high concept.

I do thoroughly ignore any intimation that they might be more evil than good, though. They're chaotic, full of whims and caprice. They're equally likely to aid stranded travelers, guiding them to safety like batrachian dolphins,as they are to devour tasty-looking sapient morsels or lay eggs in their stomachs. To me that's a crucial part of their character; if they were merely ravenous monsters, they'd be boring.

The additional detail on slaadi background and personality in The Plane Below for fourth edition is very good, though. There's much in that book that can be adapted to Limbo. "...one controversial theory claims that all the stories are true because many alternate realities exist... Perhaps multiple universes collapsed into a single cosmos, and only slaads still remember the infinite possibilities of other timelines. Now trapped in a single reality, they rebel against its strictures and embrace chaos as a way of breaking free into the wider multiverse... slaads rail against order because it is their prison, and they embrace chaos as the key to freedom." This is pretty much explicitly tied to the idea of the True Slaadi from Tales from the Infinite Staircase - instead of infinite possibilities of slaadi being compressed into frogs, infinite possibilities of reality, in which the slaadi may have been any number of things, were compressed into one reality in which they were froglike beings, and the Spawning Stone might be the physical anchor that binds them.

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Re: Limbo: Renovating the Residents

Here's the list of Limbo inhabitants from my Outer Planes index (hadn't noticed how short it is)

--Anarchic creature template (Planar)
--Archdragon template (Dragon 321)
--Arucha (EN World Converted Monsters)
--Beast of Chaos template (EN World Creature Catalogue Converted Monsters)
--Bloodthorn (Fiend Folio; invasive)
--Chaos Beast (MM/SRD)
--Cranium Rat Swarm (Fiend Folio; probably not native)
--Dragon, Chaos (Draconomicon)
--Energon, Xax-Yau (Planar)
--Entropic Reaper (Libris Mortis)
--Gith Dog, Szarkel (EN World Creature Catalogue Converted Monsters)
--Gormeel (Dragon 306)
--Howler (MM/SRD not indigenous)
--Khaasta (Fiend Folio)
--Leomarh (EN World Creature Catalogue Converted Monsters)
--Limbo Stalker (Planar)
--Lomendur, Quark (EN World Converted Monsters)
--Poltergeist, Zwergeist (EN World Converted Monsters)
--Rummele (En World Converted)
--Slaad, Mud (Fiend Folio)
--Weaver (Dragon 352)
--Windrazor (Monster Manual 4)

I have yet to look up the 3rd party Chaos subtype creatures (though I know there aren't any Limbo creatures in the Violet Dawn books)

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Re: Limbo: Renovating the Residents

I am not a huge fan of much of the 3.5 ed. Planar Handbook content, but the Neraphim have struck me as a race with some potential to add a little substance to Limbo. Unlike the Githzerai they are genuine Limbo natives adapted to living in raw chaos. Unlike the Slaadi they have a low ECL, a tangible culture and society, and much greater ability to relate to other beings of the planes. Neraphim are a slightly more accessible race that can provide a bridge between typical bashers and the really weird and inscrutable beings of Limbo... and their culture is closely bound to Chaos Beasts which is potentially quite interesting too.
Entropic Reapers are really cool too, and (though not explicitly stated as being so connected) open up some possibilities for using Ygorl a little more directly, as agents of His will.

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Re: Limbo: Renovating the Residents

One thing that occurred to me about the general form of the Proteans, all of them having a long serpentine body, is that they may somehow be related to Astral Dreadnoughts perhaps with the same ancestors.

I always pictured the ancient residents of Limbo as being really malleable in form, with lots of tentacles and constantly shifting features. But it's very possible at one point in time a bunch of them were taken at a certain moment, and they the Slaad and Proteans, with others being weakened and becoming Chaos Beasts.

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Re: Limbo: Renovating the Residents

The malleable, tentacled Limboites are chaos beasts. But there's a reason no one talks or thinks about chaos beasts very much. If a creature can look like anything, it averages out as unremarkable and plain. There's nothing memorable or iconic about them.

Everyone remembers slaadi. They're just more effective game design.

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Re: Limbo: Renovating the Residents

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I do thoroughly ignore any intimation that they might be more evil than good, though.

To be fair, IIRC that intimation's been around since first edition, in that while the lesser slaadi were all chaotic neutral, death slaadi were chaotic evil for some reason. The PSMC corrected that and made death slaadi chaotic neutral like the others, but then 3E made them chaotic evil again, and then of course 4E made all slaadi chaotic evil. But then, the 4E cosmology is so utterly different from the Planescape Great Wheel cosmology that for Planescape purposes 4E canon on slaadi can be safely ignored. (Which isn't to say you can't pull some stuff from 4E canon if you want to, of course.)

But yeah, anyway, in Planescape slaadi never had any bias towards evil in the first place. But even if you wanted to go the 1E/3E route and make death slaadi chaotic evil, that could be justified by making that not because of any inherent tendency in slaadi, but because of the corruption of some outside influence... maybe some long-dormant power of Pandemonium only able to affect the multiverse now through subtle nudging of what should be pure chaos into evil paths...

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Re: Limbo: Renovating the Residents

Even in the PSMC, the Slaadi come across more as opportunistic thugs out to continually prove they are the strongest, rather than something that feels chaotic. I always felt that the Slaadi, even under the direct influence of the Slaad Lords, shouldn't have been locked into their rigid castes. If ever there was a race that should have a table of random traits, it's them.

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Re: Limbo: Renovating the Residents

Personally I tend to think of Slaad as creatures that represent the idea of chaos rather than just beings that adapt to Limbo. Thus as what mortals perceive as chaos, they act with utter randomness and unpredictability. Of course then I tend to play it as comedic ("Where did you get that fishing rod?! And why is it on fire?!")

But basically should a mortals perception of chaos change, then the slaad change with it.

Slaad writing about the eladrins: http://www.oocities.org/ripvanwormer/eladrin2.html

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Re: Limbo: Renovating the Residents

Smeazel wrote:
Quote:
I do thoroughly ignore any intimation that they might be more evil than good, though.

To be fair, IIRC that intimation's been around since first edition, in that while the lesser slaadi were all chaotic neutral, death slaadi were chaotic evil for some reason.

This isn't true.

The death slaadi in the original Fiend Folio, like all slaadi in that book (including their rulers), were chaotic neutral. See page 81.

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Re: Limbo: Renovating the Residents

I had this idea about Chaos Missionaries. They are smooth ovals of varied kinds of stone with veins and splotches and other chaotic mishmash. Occasionally these non-patterns shift, sometimes taking on imprints of runes or the true names of unknown beings. They have a single mouth, like a magic mouth, on their surfaces.

These missionaries leave Limbo and go around hoping to convert others to the side of Chaos. Their arguments vary, either spouting the Chaosman creed that all things are already Chaos so go with your whims or warning people that Order will lock all into stasis for without Chaos there is no change. Sometimes they will get tired of arguing and use their control over illusions and enchantments to induce madness.

Their origins are unclear - some scholars connect them with broken off shards of the Spawning Stone, others claim they rose from the swirls of Pinwheel or were created by Zagyg on a lark from the fossilized bones of coyotes caught in a volcanic eruption on some distant prime world.

=-=-=

Regarding Slaad:

Slaad don't make sense, because chaos should be mutable.

Slaad do make sense, because they represent adaptability in the face of shifting environments - they are like the Platonic ideal of amphibians. Not to mention there are Lawful Slaad which rose from Chaos.

Slaad don't make sense, because they represent anarchy but have a hierarchy.

Slaad do make sense, because they rise toward ever greater expressions of chaotic power.

This dichotomy, to me, is the essence of chaos. I also don't think something in one form is necessarily lawful, or even unchaotic. Let's say Limbo spat out Slaad as a whim - their shape, their society, the Spawning Stone, the Lords. That's like making random strokes on canvas. The canvas is "scarred", if you will, by Chaos. That is why Order hates Chaos so much, it ruins *everything* even when it's up and left.

Chaos, well, part of it hates Order as an opposing principle, part of it thinks Order rises and falls into Chaos and thus is a part of Meta-Chaos, and part of it thinks Order and it are dance partners if not lovers like salt water and fresh water are lovers.

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Re: Limbo: Renovating the Residents

Painter Sprites - Servants of Rennbuu, these sprites seem to be halfling sized fey made out of wet paint. Sometimes their forms are stripes of color, other times they are swirls, dots of one color on another, humanoid frescoes depicting Ygorl's glory, or some other motley. They have no eyes or mouths and have a rough approximation to humans.

Painter Sprites can temporarily (ranging from moments to weeks) change the color of certain beings, though not those whose color confers some actual power - for example, unlike their Lord they cannot shift the races of chromatic dragons. To change the colors of others diminishes them, and can even result in their deaths. The larger the space they change the more they shrink in size and the longer they need to wait to regenerate.

Entropy Hounds - Entropy hounds are scavenging jackals made of black fire that radiates cold. They seem to subsist on entropy, following Ygorl in massive packs or suddenly shifting across the planes to where a Sinker is bringing down a kingdom or inciting a slave rebellion. Once they've come to a site ripe with entropy, they simply frolic, breathe deeply and wag their tails in joy.

While it is clear that these canine spirits can traverse the planes between sites of heavy entropy, and greater entropy allows more to planeshift to that location, no one knows how they choose their meals. Note that if one could drastically reduce the entropy in an area before the hounds could leave they would be trapped until they found another entropic location or could create such a place through excessive violence.

Time Snatchers - Time Snatchers are squat, hooded figures whose chubby forms float serenely above the ground, their paunches floating before them in their aura of low gravity. Their robes shift between red, black, grey, and indigo but this change seems to always occur between moments. Time Snatchers wear elaborate masks bearing likenesses to gods and goddesses of time, Ygorl or , Chourst, races like time dragons that have some relation to the Demiplane of Time, (in)famous chronomancers, or even artifacts that allow users to time travel.

Time Snatchers attempt to steal snatches of time, literally attacking the time stream whenever possible though usually in the safety of Limbo's depths where Chaos softens the nature of linear time. Though it takes much to bribe them, they will aid PCs who want to pull time tricks while avoiding paradox. (Time Snatchers somehow circumvent temporal paradox, though not always successfully. They are a desperate gambit for sure and their services should never be lightly sought.) When powerful energy is unleashed such as during a Cataclysm or a Time of Troubles, Time Snatchers can even throw the unsuspecting into the past or future. Quaruts slaughter any Time Snatcher on sight, though since the corpse always vanishes into the winds of the Temporal Prime one wonders if they've been killing the same Time Snatchers for untold eons.

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Re: Limbo: Renovating the Residents

Was reading the bit about the Slaadi in the main Planes of Chaos book earlier today. The text suggests thinking about Slaadi as being like barbarian nomads. Thinking about them in that sort of context, I started wondering how well the Slaadi might work as a race of perpetual wanderers.

Slaadi as barbarian nomads might wander from place to place, following or driving a herd of livestock. These slaadi might be amenable to trading, or sharing news or other useful activities. Alternatively, the herd they might be driving could be slaves, and rather than trading, they'd raid towns and villages for new stock.

As nomadic hunters, they'd attach themselves to a group of migrating animals. Coming across a group of adventurers or a town, they'd take the opportunity to pursue the easier prey. Or they might decide to trade away bits and pieces of their kills, or trade away weapons, armor or other equipment taken from earlier unlucky victims.

As gypsy-like nomads, they could come to a town and perform useful jobs for the residents. Or, as much as I hate to play up the stereotype, they could descend on a town and steal everything not nailed down (or even stuff that was).

They might act in a way similar to displaced people or refugees, moving into new lands and settling down. Sometimes peacefully, sometimes not, but their presence would always put a strain on the group or town they settled near.

As a barbarian horde (a la the Mongols), they could be a conquering force, riding out and sacking any towns or villages that happen to be in their path. They might take on other races (orcs, goblins and the like) to act as shock-troops and occupying forces.

From a sociological standpoint, casting the Slaadi into a perpetual traveler role makes a lot of sense, and a lot of the chaotic behavior you'd expect from them seems to flow somewhat naturally from that. In a frontier wilderness, you're never quite going to be certain how the people you'll come across will act towards you.

Don't know if any of this is useful to you folks, but I think this has been really helpful for me in trying to get an idea of the social character of the slaad.

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Re: Limbo: Renovating the Residents

As nomadic hunters, they'd attach themselves to a group of migrating animals.
Animals? Slaadi don't have any qualms about eating sentient creatures. In fact, mephits rank among their favorites.

As gypsy-like nomads, they could come to a town and perform useful jobs for the residents. Or, as much as I hate to play up the stereotype, they could descend on a town and steal everything not nailed down (or even stuff that was).

Stealing isn't really a slaad's thing. They're more into eating peoples' pets and impregnating random unfortunates with their brood. Taking someone's stuff is more often something they do after the fact. In addition, when they do steal stuff, it's usually something edible or which they believe to be edible (IIRC, the Slaad Lords even have a problem with their subjects breaking into their strongholds and ransacking it of edibles-- IIRC there's even a slaad lord who has or tried to make his mansion out of food, but it regularly gets stormed by slaad who munch on it)

As a barbarian horde (a la the Mongols), they could be a conquering force
They're not organized enough for that. The only time you ever see Slaadi working in concert is when they all want to infect both sides of a blood war battle army with their brood or when they truly feel threatened, such as during an invasion of Limbo. While Slaadi do form towns, outposts, cities, etc., they very rarely form a community, as they tend to function as individuals and often do not get along with their neighbors. Most of all, slaadi do not trust one another, since beings of such chaos act on a whim and are unpredictable. Thus, you can never take a slaad's word. The ones living long-term in Sigil tend to be a tad different out of necessity and generally won't engage in activities that are likely to get them sent to the mazes or singled out by the Harmonium, though IIRC most tend to live in The Hive since that area is the most lawless.

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Re: Limbo: Renovating the Residents

Communities and societies emerge out of any group of creatures or beings that interact in large enough numbers. Groups of slaadi that are all hunting the same herd of animals (or adventuring party) are a hunting group, regardless of their individual motivations.

At no point would the slaadi lose their individuality. I'm reminded of the story talking about a sailing ship that, over the years, had bits and pieces of it replaced until, at one point, there were no pieces of the original ship left. The slaadi would be like the bits and pieces of the ship, joining and leaving a group as whatever fit their individuals whims, but the group itself could continue onwards indefinitely (or dissolve at a whim).

So my main motivation in thinking about the slaadi is what groupings would they naturally fall into, given the canonical description of thinking of them as barbarian nomads. Hunting parties make sense, as would rampaging hordes. Slaadi taking slaves is also mentioned, groups of slavers make sense. Other groups that could spontaneously develop might simply be the inverse of the above. Hunting parties could be thwarted by savvy slaad guides. A town facing a horde of slaad invaders could suddenly discover their defenses bolstered by another group of slaad. Slaad slavers could face the wrath of slaad freedom fighters.

And yet, you couldn't trust that the freedom fighters wouldn't suddenly decide to keep the slaves for themselves (or make a snack out of them). Some of the defenders might join with the horde and some of the horde might start attacking other members of the horde.

Just because something is chaotic doesn't mean it's random. It just means that it's unpredictable. It also doesn't mean that you can't have far reaching plans, it just means that the chances of seeing those plans realized are pretty slim as they'll be subject to caprice.

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Re: Limbo: Renovating the Residents

Wicke wrote:
Just because something is chaotic doesn't mean it's random. It just means that it's unpredictable.

In the context of D&D, it doesn't even necessarily mean that. Keep in mind that in D&D, Law vs. Chaos is also about Authority vs. Self-Determination. It's Darkseid vs. Highfather. You don't have to be a fishmalk-type character at all in order to stand for Chaos, you can just stand for the ability of a person to choose their own way in life without having to deal with the restrictions put on them by other people.

Quote:
It also doesn't mean that you can't have far reaching plans, it just means that the chances of seeing those plans realized are pretty slim as they'll be subject to caprice.

My favorite example of CE planning comes from a quote from Angel, actually. Sticking out tongue

Quote:
  • [to Spike whilst fighting]
  • Angel: Is this your big strategy for gettin' the ring back?
  • Spike: I had a plan.
  • [Hurls Spike onto a car and pins him face first to the bonnet]
  • Angel: You, a plan?
  • Spike: A good plan, smart plan, carefully laid out. But, I got bored.
  • [Spike pushes Angel against a wall]
  • Spike: All that watching, waiting. My legs started to cramp.

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Re: Limbo: Renovating the Residents

I like the idea of various nomadic groups of Slaad, doing whatever strikes their fancy. Remember, Limbo even produced Lawful Slaad who fight against their brethren!

D&D has had a lot of problems with Chaos, first making it eviler than Law, then shoehorning different ideas of Chaos based on the authors' viewpoints. Slaad in particular came off as hungry beasts rather than truly chaotic creatures.

Really, what Chaos is should be something for the GM to decide, but to me it represents myriad possibilities and paradoxes - it generates rules and breaks them. Unlike Good and Evil, Law and Chaos are more abstract and should be debatable in game. Xaosiects believe that the whole Multiverse is Chaos, and that one should learn to accept this and attune to it to be enlightened. Guvners seems to think there are rules governing all things, and that even seeming Chaos has a Pattern.

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Re: Limbo: Renovating the Residents

Very interesting debate. I thought a little bit about the stuff that's been discussed here and I wanted to share some of them with you. I have to admit that I'm not very familar with most of official literature on the Slaad besides what I've read in the 3.5 Monster manual and on this page, so please excuse me if some of my thoughts on this topic might seem a little bit odd, non-canonical, or just plain obvious to you.

I thought the easiest way to characterise the Slaad would be to look at their lawful neutral counterparts (the Modrons) and just use the exact opposite attributes which usually are associated with them, to characterise the nature of the Slaad.
The Modrons have no idea of individuality and have no individual goals or even individual ambitions. They only exist to fulfill the orders which were given to them by their higher ranking peers and nothing else. Therefore the exact opposite of this creature would be a being that examplifies the ultimate ideal of individualism. A Slaad does not accept orders of other beings unless he is forced to do so and even if that happens, it's pretty likely that he will turn against whoever forced him to omit his individuality. Furthermore a Slaad doesn't constrict his ambitions with any kind morality since that would lead to a loss of personal freedom.

The other thought I had, and here it starts to get a little bit odd, was to look for other examples of purely chaotic neutral races in other games and what characterises them. For example, if you look how the Orks in the Warhammer Universe are characterised, especially in Warhammer 40k.
The only thing Orks are interested in are fights. They don't care about who they fight and why they're fighting, as long as they're fighting. Of course this doesn't mean that individual Orks are chaotic neutral, I think most of their leaders would be chaotic evil since they try to violently oppress any possible threat to their power, but as a race they appear to be mostly chaotic neutral. What's further interesting is that, at least in Warhammer 40k, Orks make up their own rules about how the Universe works. This might lead to some very strange conclusions (e.g. red vehicles are always faster then vehicles colored in other colors) but somehow these rules still seem to work, simply because the Orks believe that they work.

Allright, what does this stuff has to do with the Slaad? Imagine a race of complete individualists. Each Slaad has his(/her/its?) own goals and does not care about the means he has to use to achieve them. If there are some Slaadi who share the same goal, they might form some kind of alliance, although it's quite likely that the Slaad with the most power tries to force the other members of this alliance into his service, simply because it's the easiest way for him to get to his goal. Those goals by the way can be completely random and it's quite likely that most Slaad are not interested in dedicating their whole existence to the achievement of one personal goal. However I don't think that personal obesssion with a certain aspect of live qualifies as being "lawful", so it's also possible that some Slaadi will get obsessed about something.
Furhtermore when it comes to their view on the multiverse and how it works, it would be again highly depend on the individual Slaad you're talking to. Since they likely spend most of their time in Limbo where, at least as far as I know, the nature of the plane is highly volatile and depends on the will of an indiviudal to shape the Plane into a certain form. Therefore it might be safe to say, that the Slaad simply make up their own "laws" of nature and hold on to them as long as they want.
You can go further and try to define certain "interests" to the certain types of Slaad, e.g. Blue Slaad would only be interested in fighting stuff, green Slaad would only be interested in Magic, but I'm not sure if this wouldn't be a little bit to "orderly" for them.

And in the end: The good thing about Chaos is that it could mean almost everything. So I think it's ok to do with the Slaad and the other inhabitants of Limbo whatever you like, as long as you don't turn them into Modrons.

P.S.: Since this is my first post here: Hello everyone!

P.P.S.: I'm from Germany, so please excuse me if my english seems a little bit wonky. It's also pretty late overhere and I didn't do any kind of spellchecking on this post so it might be even more wonky then usual.

P.P.P.S.: At last: All of the stuff I wrote is completely based on my own thoughts about this topic, since I don't have any literature besides the basic books. So if I did any kind of huge mistake in regards to the canon, please let me know.

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Re: Limbo: Renovating the Residents

Welcome to the boards MOKKA! Always good to see a fresh face in here! And don't worry at all about your English, it's fine!

I never really thought about the ork connection before, as I'm only passingly familiar with the 40k universe. It makes a certain kind of sense though. I'd probably relegate most ork-like reality-altering beliefs a slaad might have to working just within Limbo.

As for the rest, you're not too far off from the broader canon. Slaad act as individuals for the most part, so I'd be leery about making an entire color caste act or behave in any one way.

I wanna write more, but the ideas are still percolating in my head.

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I thought the easiest way to characterise the Slaad would be to look at their lawful neutral counterparts (the Modrons) and just use the exact opposite attributes which usually are associated with them, to characterise the nature of the Slaad.
The Modrons have no idea of individuality and have no individual goals or even individual ambitions. They only exist to fulfill the orders which were given to them by their higher ranking peers and nothing else. Therefore the exact opposite of this creature would be a being that examplifies the ultimate ideal of individualism. A Slaad does not accept orders of other beings unless he is forced to do so and even if that happens, it's pretty likely that he will turn against whoever forced him to omit his individuality. Furthermore a Slaad doesn't constrict his ambitions with any kind morality since that would lead to a loss of personal freedom.
Allright, what does this stuff has to do with the Slaad? Imagine a race of complete individualists. Each Slaad has his(/her/its?) own goals and does not care about the means he has to use to achieve them. If there are some Slaadi who share the same goal, they might form some kind of alliance, although it's quite likely that the Slaad with the most power tries to force the other members of this alliance into his service, simply because it's the easiest way for him to get to his goal. Those goals by the way can be completely random and it's quite likely that most Slaad are not interested in dedicating their whole existence to the achievement of one personal goal. However I don't think that personal obesssion with a certain aspect of live qualifies as being "lawful", so it's also possible that some Slaadi will get obsessed about something.
Furhtermore when it comes to their view on the multiverse and how it works, it would be again highly depend on the individual Slaad you're talking to.

That's precisely how they are in Planes of Chaos and other Planescape books, actually.

Another thing to bear in mind (as with all other elementals and outsiders) is that the inhabitants can, in the grand scheme of things, be viewed as part of the plane's immune system, if you will. Ecologically, they exist solely to keep their plane pure by spreading their element or alignment across their home plane and to destroy anything with foreign elemental or alignment components. The greatest problems arise when these creatures leave their indigenous habitat for different ecosystems, such as the Prime Material.
Planar Hazards also make up a major part of the plane's immune system, and as such, the hazards should be far more harmful to those of opposing elemental or alignment components. For the Spireward areas of the Outlands, you're likely to find hazards that are most dangerous to those lacking a neutral alignment component, for instance.

In the end, this means that in the case of Limbo, the elements and the churning chaos should be the most harmful to lawful creatures, to the point where the churning chaos almost seems like a sentient creature coming after the lawful PCs or NPCs, and when it comes to weather and other elemental forces, the lawful PCs seem to have really bad "luck" if you will.
Which, come to think of it, I think the luck system works well for all the chaotic planes, including Limbo-- luck modifiers may even be integral to using certain items or entering certain areas on Limbo.

Wicke's picture
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factotums
Joined: 2009-04-24
Re: Limbo: Renovating the Residents

A thought occurred to me about the Slaad. Without intervention from the Slaad Lords and how they prevent any new varieties of slaadi from forming, I could easily see the Slaad behaving almost like a cancer. Some breeds would likely consume everything they could and then budding or laying eggs or whatever and making more of themselves. In some cases the process may be disastrous. Think of the movie Gremlins, when the one jumped into the pool.

Ozymandias's picture
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Joined: 2011-10-04
Re: Limbo: Renovating the Residents

What if Mokka's idea about "making up their own rules" was made into an ability?

The great thing about the Slaad as a race is that they are supposed to embody Chaos. Or maybe they aren't, but this is how I've always viewed them. So any rules we uncover -- the relationship between their abilities and color; their desire to eat and spawn; etc. -- can and should be thrown out the window whenever the DM needs or wants to throw a little chaos into the mix. A planewalking party prepares for a jaunt into Limbo. Their resident scholar spends the better part of a month studying the Slaad. What's the single most important thing he learns? That everything written in these numerous tomes is probably wrong, because Chaos is Chaos and the Slaad you meet today may not be the one you met yesterday.

Long story short, I think it's safe to say that the Slaad can be everything that's be written about them; that they can have all the traits attributed to them on this website; and that they can be just about anything else, so long as they embody Chaos in your game. I wouldn't recommend creating a city of Slaad with a rigid caste system and code of laws -- not unless you plan to have it fall apart on a cyclopean scale while the PCs are visiting. Actually, that sounds like fun...

Anyway, returning to my first thought, what if some Slaad had the power to change reality around them wherever they went? I don't recall off-hand if any do have this ability (according to canon); regardless, a Slaad might carry a piece of Limbo when it leaves its home. The further it gets from Limbo, or the longer it is away, the weaker this "aura of chaos" becomes. At first it may be a literal halo of Limbo's soup. The Slaad could decide to "float" in a ball of acid, or to have the color of its personal sky change to pink. Later, as time and distance puts it further from Limbo, its power diminishes and it can only slow time for a few moments in the day, or change the nature of scent so that rotting meat smells like candy. In other words, some Slaad should have the power the change the rules of the universe whenever they leave Limbo; how long they can maintain this depends on how long they've been gone, and how powerful they are to begin with.

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