Im sorry, I didn't mean to seem rude.
Level adjustment confusion
I have a rule of three style problem.
For an online game, one of my characters is a half air elemental (from MOTP) The book itself says there is no level adjustment.
I send it to my dm( username), who tells me that the powers of a half elemental deserve a 3 level adjustment. Considering I had designed the character to have no level adjustment, this came as a shock to me.
I start working on creating a new character ( no way im starting at level 2.) When my old dm (Tenshi) comes in. I tell him what happened, and he tells me that there should be only a level one level adjustment, because the only thing they have is the spell like abilities (at least, thats the only thing they have that level adjustments care about)
So, what do the poeple of planewalker at large think the level adjustment of the Half elemetals are?
Sorry Username for doing this, I just though that with all the differant opinions are, I should check. I don't want to have to deal with a 3 level adjustment if I dont have to.
- 330 reads
Mon, 2005-02-07 11:56
#3
Level adjustment confusion
Mon, 2005-02-07 12:01
#4
Level adjustment confusion
I can understand why you would want to figure this out, but you probably should have dealt with this with Username via PM.
Mon, 2005-02-07 12:17
#5
Level adjustment confusion
I'd say your DM is correct. Even if he wasn't, it's your job to present logical arguments to persuade him. If you can't, his ruling automatically stands. Also, it would have been better to discuss this in private with your DM and/or group. The people on these forums are not a rules-adjudicating committee, and do not have power over other DMs to overrule their decisions.
Mon, 2005-02-07 12:55
#6
Level adjustment confusion
There is a problem with the choises persented here. The final choise is two diffrernt choises. I agree what the dm says goes as the dm's word is final in such matters but they might not warrent the level adjustment.
It would be like putting (Just an example) "Do you belive in cristianity/stopping abortions?" on a pollitical poll. There are many people who belive in one side or the other of that but do not belive in both.
Mon, 2005-02-07 14:16
#7
Level adjustment confusion
I don't actually mind, I'd be willing to reduce the LA to a +2 if he can get the other players in the campaign to agree. A poll does the trick just fine as well though.
Mon, 2005-02-07 17:18
#8
Level adjustment confusion
I just read back through my posts and have realized how amazingly stupid Ive been.
Im sorry for wasting all your time, I'll go with the 3 level adjustment.
When I made this forum thread, I never really meant to try and change anyones veiws, I just wanted to know what the people at large of planewalker though the stat was, considering that at the time it seemed to be a matter of opinion.
That question has been answered. Thank you.
Tue, 2005-02-08 09:34
#9
Level adjustment confusion
As fridrikon said I believe they should only have a level adjustment of plus one- for the reason of several references and that a Level adjustment is usually based on spell resistance wich is a +1, Spell like abilities, wich agian are a +1 no matter how many you have- although if they gain all of them at once I'd suggest a +2, but these are gradual, and thier abilities don't get powerful until around a a character level of 16 and if they don't have a wisdom of 8 or higher they don't gain any. and sorry but immunities can sometimes add to a level adjustment, but look at half-elves and elves, immune to magical sleep effects and if they're a half elf they're immune to magical sleep and other magical effects, and stat bonusus have never boosted acharacters LA due to the fact that it is a part of the race itself. Some special qualities that dramatically increase a characters effectiveness also boost a characters LA, such as a lizardfolk's Hold Breath ability that allows them to hold thier breath for up to twice thier constitution score longer than most characters, and a Minitors Natural Cunning, where they can never be lost or flanked- things like these boost thier LA... by going by this system they only have a plus one due to gradual spell-like abilities that they may or may not recieve, thier immunities are only to poison, and it makes common sense for them to be immune to attacks of thier element, and as for the +4 towards poison saves, a half-elf and elves get a +2 towards enchantments, and weapon proficiencies, 12 levels worth to be exact, and you want to know another races that should have a crapload of LA but doesn't Dwarves and Gnomes, especially Dwarves, but they don't becuase of the system that I just mentioned... so at most a +2 I'll agree at most that, but it should only be a +1, and this would also stack with the base creatures, so lets say you had a Tiefling wich has a +1 LA then with this template it would be a +2... and I disagree with what Primus said about LAs being usually higher than CRs, it's actually the other way around... sorry to argue, but I needed to put this in
I hope that this helps in some sort of way towards making the final decision 
Tue, 2005-02-08 10:12
#10
Level adjustment confusion
But tenshi, the descision's already been made. Its a plus three.
And I accept it, so please don't make a big deal out of this...
Tue, 2005-02-08 10:32
#11
Level adjustment confusion
but I'm not making a big deal outta it- I'm not upset, I'm just stating my opinion, and I thuaght you agreed to a +2 *scxratches his head in confusion*... meh, oh well, I'm gunna change my druid so that it isn't such a big deal, cuase we all know what happens when druids have LAs, both you and I know from experience...
I want to apologise to Primus becuase I just realized that he was right lol, most creatures don't have a level adjustment unless if they are some sort of humanoid, or can be used as a cohort, and in that sense the level adjustment usually is higher than the CR... Sorry Primus, I hope you accept my apology
Tue, 2005-02-08 15:40
#12
Level adjustment confusion
Spell like abilities, wich agian are a +1 no matter how many you have
So, a race that gets all the ninth-level spells as spell-like abilities, usable at will...
stat bonusus have never boosted acharacters LA due to the fact that it is a part of the race itself.
And this same theoretical race has a +24 to strength and constitution...
Tue, 2005-02-08 16:16
#13
Level adjustment confusion
CRs tend to be larger than LAs, but it's not what you're thinking of, Tenshi. What the statement should say is that CR adjustments are smaller than level adjustment. The reason for this is that level adjustment applies to ECL. Challenge rating indicates how tough a fight a creature is, assuming a one-encounter combat. That means that some abilities of a creature won't come into play, or not very often. It means that a creature won't get to use all of its powerful special abilities. Hence, a vampire has some paltry CR adjustment of +2 or so, while it has a huge LA of +8. CR is for monsters as ECL is for player characters (and cohorts and allies).
It's almost inconceivable for a LA to be smaller than a CR adjustment for a template.
Challenge Rating and Effective Character Level are analogous in the same way that Challenge Rating adjustment and Level Adjustment are analogous.
So to look at how a template adjusts challenge rating, look in the challenge rating section. It will say something like "CR +2" meaning that you add 2 to whatever the CR was before.
Wed, 2005-02-09 09:37
#14
Level adjustment confusion
So, a race that gets all the ninth-level spells as spell-like abilities, usable at will...
That's insane, I haven't eeen seen a creature with spell-like abilities (or psionics) that has that- but like I said before, I think that if it isn't gradual, or a restriction to the way they gain the spell-like abilities then it should be higher... and if they we're all level 9 spells and they weren't restricted in some way or gradual, there would most likely be a higher LA becuase it dramatically increases thier combat effectiveness
And this same theoretical race has a +24 to strength and constitution
Most creaturesthat can be used as PCs and have a level adjustment usually don't have bonuses that high- and those bonuses are actually derived from thier natural stats so that when they are used those mods are added to the original roll of the person creating the character to get a score that is simular to the base creatures actual natural stats, and if they did have a bonus that high then no DM should even allow that creature to be used... and creatures with stats that high also would have several special qualities and attacks to add to add to the level adjustment of that creature- All of the creatures I've seen with LA's don't have LA's becuase of thier stats for example, a Tiefling in the monster manual has a +1 LA becuase of thier ability to cast a spell-like ability (Darkness), and thier resistance 5 to fire,cold, and shock isn't really high enough to propose another LA (it doesn't improve thier combat effectiveness that much, but if it were 10 on the otherhand that would most definately propose another LA)...
I agree Ryhs...
Vampires have a level adjustment of +8 becuase of how many special abilities, special attacks, ect ect. this improves it's LA much more than CR becuase the modifier for a CR for the advancement of characters by giving them powerful abilities that increases the base creatures CR by +2 (it's in the back of the monster manual) but a creatures CR is also dependant on it's AC saves, base attack bonus, and even it's hit die, wich gives the creature a much higher CR than it's LA...
ok I gatta go lol, I wouldn't be suprised if all of you know this already
Wed, 2005-02-09 09:50
#15
Level adjustment confusion
A level 10 human wizard who's a vampire would have a CR of 12 and an ECL of 18. His extra abilities don't make him that much more threatening in a single fight, since he can't make use of all of them, but a PC vampire could turn gasseous to infiltrate lairs, dominate dozens of people per day, have random animal minions fight his combats, and regenerate after every battle, making those abilities much more valuable to a PC. You'll find that just about any ability that is useful to a monster is as useful if not more useful for a PC, meaning that it's worth more of a LA than of a CR adjustment.
Wed, 2005-02-09 10:28
#16
Level adjustment confusion
but isn't that... just what I... *brain explodes*...
>.<
Wed, 2005-02-09 10:55
#17
Level adjustment confusion
and I disagree with what Primus said about LAs being usually higher than CRs, it's actually the other way around... sorry to argue, but I needed to put this in
I probably went on for too long, but I felt the need to make sure that the topic of ECL versus CR is clear, because a lot of people confuse them and end up with PCs who are much too powerful.
Wed, 2005-02-09 11:04
#18
Level adjustment confusion
*nods* a good way of countering that is not allowing any creatures with an ECL of 3 or higher (that's what I usually do)...
Yeah I knew what you were trying to point out
Although Primus had me thinking there for a sec
They are not 0. That's ridiculous. The MotP is a 3.0 book, put out BEFORE they started publishing LAs, so it has no listed LA. Now, let's look at the Template...
The template increases the CR of a monster by 2, now, CR and LA are not linked, but usually the LA is higher than the CR.
A half Air Elemental has:
Immunity to Cold Effects
Immunity to Disease
+4 Fort save Bonus
+2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha
Spell-Like Abilities.
Now, before the spell-like abilities I'd be hard pressed to put this template at +1. Its a little more powerful than the genasi, aasimar, and tiefers... but not all the way up to +2. I'd say that +2 or +3 total is quite accurate. (in fact, if I remember properly WotC said that +3 was the proper LA somewhere or another).
Also, its rude to go onto the internet and air yer grievances when you do not agree with a ruling.