Layers and their borders/travel possibilities

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therisenevil's picture
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Layers and their borders/travel possibilities

Hi everyone.
I just started to ask myself many questions on how layers work.
If a layer is said to be infinite, how can it have a center (like the layers of the beastlands)?
And if a layer has a border, what happens if a body walks beyond the edge?
And finally, in what manner are different layers of one plane conncted with each other? Is it possible to walk from one layer to another, or does it take a portal? Somewhere in the setting, it is said, that layers can be connected by conduits, but 1. this would make two layers no less different from each other than two planes and 2. how can there be conduits when the astral plane touches only the first layer of a plane?
And one last question, is it right then, that spells that call upon the astral plane work only on the first layer of a plane?

Sorry for the brainstorm- like manner of my questions.

ripvanwormer's picture
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Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
Re: Layers and their borders/travel possibilities

Well, the Center of All tenet means that there aren't any true centers on the planes. That said, any point can be arbitrarily considered the center: Primus's gear in Regulus is often considered the center of Mechanus, and the Spire is often considered the center of the Outlands (and the Outer Planar ring in general). They aren't, not really, but their importance means they're often considered so by planars.

Generally, you get from layer to layer using portals, but sometimes there are borders as well (most significantly, in the sky between Dothion and Shurrock in Bytopia, where you can cross the border simply by flying/climbing/falling). In the 1st edition Manual of the Planes, all outer planar layers had overlapping border regions where one could cross from one layer to the next by an effort of will: for example, these borders were always in the lowest points of the Nine Hells and the highest peaks in the Seven Heavens, so that there was an illusion of descending or ascending as people climbed down or up to reach the next border (I mean, you were actually ascending or descending, but for example Mercuria wasn't "really" "above" Lunia, it just seemed that way because the border leading to Mercuria was only found in Lunia's highest peaks). You could also, if you chose, not cross the border, and stay in the plane you were in (which means someone could in theory keep flying into Dothion's sky instead of crossing over into Shurrock). In Planescape, this complexity was ignored in favor of generally just using portals.

Conduits can work too. The salient distinction here is between astral conduits and planar conduits. They're basically the same thing, but astral conduits only connect the Material Plane with the first layers of the Outer Planes. Planar conduits can connect any point in the Outer Planes with any other (except Sigil, of course), so they could for example cross from Thanatos in the Abyss directly to the Gray Waste, without crossing the Astral Plane. Planar conduits are thought to have started out as astral conduits that have since gone wild.

The first layer of a plane is the only layer that touches the Astral, yes, though I'd ignore that in cases like teleportation magic, or otherwise when it makes things more annoying than fun.

Mechalich's picture
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Re: Layers and their borders/travel possibilities

In a purely geometric sense it is of course possible for an object with a defined shape to have a center even if it is infinite in scope (a parabola is an obvious example).

So if you consider the Outlands ring a perfect circle, then yes the Spire being infinitely equidistant from all points on the edge, could be considered the 'center' of the plane. However, on the Outer Planes physical measurements of distance only matter as a concept of short-term travel, head out towards about anything further than a day's march away and the rules of distance break down completely.

For example: if a Modron walks from two points 100 kilometers apart on the Outlands, an infinite number of times, taking the exact same size step each time, it records an infinite number of different travel times (though they might vary only be rather small amounts)

Of course, on the Inner Planes the rules are different, belief doesn't bend reality in the way it does on the outer planes, and physical distance does matter. Of course these creates a paradox that the Inner Planes are supposedly infinite in size, and yet you can walk from one to the other, but it's probably best not to think about that too hard.

therisenevil's picture
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Re: Layers and their borders/travel possibilities

Thanks for the fast replies!
I think it is gonna work out for me now.

schpeelah's picture
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Re: Layers and their borders/travel possibilities

I have my own pet theory on the subject.

So the fluff is as follows: most planes are infinite, but the setting seems not to be affected by the infinity; the way between two places (say, gate-towns) seems to change and, at least in the Outlands, geography doesn’t follow the laws of geometry; travel times further change depending on circumstances: doing Evil in Elysium means you’ll never get anywhere, for the good guys everything is just around the corner.
Explanation: every infinite plane is actually a Schrödinger planar pathway that doesn’t actually exist physically until observed, at which point it assumes a form based on who the traveler himself is (especially his deeds alignment-wise), where he is heading and the context of currently existing nearby terrain. Any actual place – town, divine realm – is a demiplane connected to the pathway (except the rules for interdimentional travel treat them as one plane).

Also, don't you think it'd be neat if doing Evil in the Outlands would pull you closer to the Lower Planes' gate-towns?

Hyena of Ice's picture
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factotums
Joined: 2009-09-25
Re: Layers and their borders/travel possibilities

My understanding is that the layers aren't REALLY infinite, it just seems that way if you're a non-native or the plane's powers don't want you to be there. Instead, they are vast, vast expanses. It's best not to think about this too hard. Sure, you could figure out in-depth physics/mechanics to explain the way travel is in the Outer and Inner Planes (giving the geographical dimensions of each plane and even going so far as to claim that natives and those willed by the powers have the innate ability towards dimensional folding or somesuch), but I think it is best to leave it as an enigma, or just have a paragraph or two of theories/speculation by sages.

BlackDaggr's picture
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Re: Layers and their borders/travel possibilities

Physically, each layer of each plane is infinite. This includes the layers of Baator, the Outlands, and Bytopia, all of which have some perceptual boundary.

In Baator's case, the layers seem to get smaller. Dis is smaller than Avernus, and Minauros is smaller still. This is either (A) an illusion fostered by the baatezu, or (B) a perception of the visitors to Baator, as comprehending an infinite expanse of evil may be unsettling to some, or (C) blatant misrepresentations of Baator. It is likely that the baatezu promote this limited-size concept to deceive tanar'ri, or to get visitors to arrive in the center of baatezu power.

Bytopia's layers are also infinite. However, they are also bounded on one side - basically, where Shurrock and Dothion meet. However, both layers are infinitely wide.

The Gray Waste has all three layers meeting in a single central city. Similarly, Graz'zt's three layers of the Abyss also co-mingle. I assume the layers still have some form of 'reality boundary'. This might be similar to the city of Cynosure in Grimjack, where you could change dimensions by crossing a street.

In most cases, the depictions of various planes has been simplified for planars and the clueless. For instance, Gehenna's four layers are sometimes thought of as four sides of a pyramid. This is simply a concept used to form a mental image of the plane. Perhaps it is easier to navigate toward Gehenna if you imagine a pyramid.

The Outlands is a special case. It does have a real center (the spire), though the properties of distance are funky. These properties degrade even more the farther one travels from the Spire - in the Hinterlands beyond the gate towns, distance really breaks down.

As far as travel between the layers, this depends on the edition of D&D you use. In the first edition, it was possible to travel from layer to layer using the spell Rope Trick Furthermore, there were frequent portals between the first layers of adjacent planes, so you could travel from Arborea to Ysgard by travelling through a portal (the Per frequently guard these). In second edition, the Rope Trick passage was largely dropped, in favor of the various Planescape travel methods. In 3rd edition, the methods of inter-layer (and inter-plane) travel has been largely omitted, to my knowledge. Portals would have to be rather rare (otherwise the Gatecrasher prestige class gets REALLY disgusting)

Bob the Efreet's picture
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Re: Layers and their borders/travel possibilities

BlackDaggr wrote:
In Baator's case, the layers seem to get smaller. Dis is smaller than Avernus, and Minauros is smaller still. This is either (A) an illusion fostered by the baatezu, or (B) a perception of the visitors to Baator, as comprehending an infinite expanse of evil may be unsettling to some, or (C) blatant misrepresentations of Baator.

Or (D) some infinities are larger/smaller than others.

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