Kriegstanz in Post-Faction War

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eldersphinx's picture
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Kriegstanz in Post-Faction War

So following Anarch's and Rip's comments [url=/forums/ *** viewTopic.php?intTopicID=904]here[/url], I've begun wondering what a post-FW Planescape setting would look like in which the (now dispersed and somewhat de-powered) factions chose to continue the kriegstanz. Here are a few thoughts:

- The new kriegstanz is not confined to Sigil. It can take place across the planes, in gate-towns, citadels, divine realms, and anywhere or anytime the factions consider something worth fighting over. This means that it is more likely to glancingly touch on the lives of average planars, but less likely to interfere on a regular basis.
- The war is likely fought for much the same reasons - disagreements over belief, attempts to control the tools of influence, and personal disagreements and hatreds stemming from earlier conflicts. Having faction higher-ups spread across the planes (and so not screaming directly in each others' faces) reduces this, but as the factions settle into their new homes and begin spreading webs of communications and influence the old rivalries start to stir once more.
- The new kriegstanz is likely to be more liable to erupt into open bloodshed than the old war. Since face-to-face encounters are shorter and sharper than in the past, the temptation to gain an advantage with bared steel or spell is that much greater. The more dispersed nature of the conflict also reduces inhibitions - in Sigil, you had to worry that the people of the street you brawled on would denounce you a week later, but when the entirety of the planes is your battlefield, why care?
- The main aggressors in the new conflict include the Harmonium, the Fated, the Athar, the Merkhants, and possibly the Dustmen and the Doomguard. Ragers, Sodkillers, and some Sensates, Xaositects and Ciphers also intervene in a more individual and disorganized manner.
- In addition to faction conflicts, the new kriegstanz also features a fair amount of outside intervention, as exemplar beings and divine powers seek to use the widening battling to their own ends. Deities like Loki, Hermes and Set get involved almost immediately, as do the yugoloths; Primus, the archons of the Mount, and the baatezu and tanar'ri take longer, but choose to meddle as well. Eventually, even the archomentals get involved. And while the rilmani are suspected of playing, nobody is ever quite confident enough to say so openly.

I think this has some possible promise. Anyone else interested in nailing down some specifics of what makes a post-FW kriegstanz tick, the terms on which it's fought, and the fallout on the planes as a whole?

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Kriegstanz in Post-Faction War

Part of the thing that makes the kriegstanz the, well, kriegstanz is precisely that it can't ever escalate to open war because of the nature of Sigil and the Lady. [Or at least, so people think/thought.] In order to encapsulate the feeling of the kriegstanz, then, you'd have to arrange for this kind of hostile peace/Cold War mentality to break out in the planes and I don't see how that would come about. To me, the other Outer Planes are about not only the incarnation of particular moral and ethical philosophies but, by and large, taking them to such an extreme (an "exemplification", if you will) as to find other philosophies intolerable. As long as the Blood War rages, then, outright conflict between the various philosophies seems inevitable -- and, from a design standpoint, desirable.

Put another way, the only way a kriegstanz/Cold War type scenario can unfold is by either internal or external pressure, and the existence of exemplar philosophies pretty much eliminates the former possibility. [Although see below.] As for external pressure, absent The Lady or some other overpower-esque being dictating what can and cannot be done, I don't see that happening either.

Now, the one possibility that occurs to me isn't so much the battles of the exemplars and other paramortals as it is the kriegstanz of the gods. This meets my criterion above by the simple virtue of the fact that, as near as we can tell, the gods are frightened of death and are possessed of the means to destroy one another. If something like this were to emerge and the Planes weren't rife with the kind of lunatic warmongers who'd cheerfully nuke all of existence rather than let One Of THEM live another moment... then, I could see a kriegstanz emerging.

With all that said, I eagerly await those more knowledgeable and devious than I to show me the error of my ways Smiling

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Kriegstanz in Post-Faction War

Well, I can see a number of reasons for the kriegstanz to continue after the Faction War. One (though admittedly a relatively weak one) is simple inertia; the factions aren't used to open fighting, and may take a while to gear up to it. Besides, the factions are still getting used to settling into their new places; they may not be too eager to go at each other head-to-head till they've built up their own bases.

Another possible scenario: With the Faction War, the factions have seen how destructive an all-out conflict between them can be. Yes, the Lady eventually stepped in and took a hand, but even before that the Faction War was taking a serious toll on pretty much all the factions. Probably none of the factions, or at least the most level-headed factions, want to risk something like that happening again. And the more reactionary factions, who otherwise might want to escalate things into open warfare, might be given pause by the prospect of the other factions uniting to try to quash any one faction that tries to get open conflict going again.

Then, of course, if you want to go farther afield, there's always that old standby of the real-world Cold War: "mutually assured destruction". Maybe two or three of the factions have developed some sort of ultimate weapon, and now no one wants to take them on for fear of falling victim to those weapons, or start fights with each other for fear the heavily armed factions will choose sides? This isn't an option I'd use, myself, but it may be one to consider.

To tell the truth, I question the premise that the Lady was the main thing keeping the factions from entering into open warfare in the first place. Yes, she was responsible for limiting the number of factions, but I don't think there's anything in canon indicating that she took an active role in preventing the factions from fighting. If she were that concerned about that, she could have interfered in the events leading up to the Faction War long before she did. I think the main thing that kept the kriegstanz more or less stable was that the net of allegiances between the factions provided its own sort of checks and balances; any faction that really tried an open attack on another would find itself facing not only that faction, but its allies as well, while the aggressor's allies would be less likely to want to get involved in something that didn't directly concern them and was the attacking faction's fault in the first place. That would be all just as true after the Faction War as before. So honestly, I see the kriegstanz continuing after the Faction War not too differently from how it was before.

As far as the other thoughts:

'eldersphinx' wrote:
- The new kriegstanz is not confined to Sigil. It can take place across the planes, in gate-towns, citadels, divine realms, and anywhere or anytime the factions consider something worth fighting over. This means that it is more likely to glancingly touch on the lives of average planars, but less likely to interfere on a regular basis.

Agreed, essentially.

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The war is likely fought for much the same reasons...

Again, essentially agreed.

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- The new kriegstanz is likely to be more liable to erupt into open bloodshed than the old war...

I could see it going this way, but I don't think it's inevitable. In Sigil "the people of the street you brawled on would denounce you a week later", okay...but denounce you to whom? To...well, to the Harmonium. One of the factions. And you'd be tried by the Guvners, and the sentence executed by the Mercykillers...since the factions were the main ones responsible for justice in Sigil, I don't think it can really be said that Sigil's justice system kept the factions in check! If anything, now that they're around so many more beings that don't belong to a faction, the factions may be more subdued than before the War.

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- The main aggressors in the new conflict include the Harmonium, the Fated, the Athar, the Merkhants, and possibly the Dustmen and the Doomguard.

Okay, here I have some strong disagreements. The Fated? No way. They suffered too hard a hit in the Faction War; they got the brunt of the blame for it once Darkwood's machinations came out. It seems to me they'd be far too busy picking up the pieces of their own faction to be a major aggressor right away. Similar objections apply to the Doomguard; they took maybe the heaviest losses of any faction in the war, and after the Faction War, they're barely a faction at all, as much as they are four separate, small and weak factions that are only very loosely united. They're not in a position to present much aggression to anyone except themselves. The Athar? Still a bit scared of trying to extend themselves too far where they don't have the Lady to protect them from the gods.

If I had to make a list of the probable major players in the post-FW kriegstanz, I'd probably include the Fraternity of Order, the Harmonium, the Ring-Givers, the Society of Sensation, the Transcendent Order, and the Xaositects. But of course there's room for some contingencies and opinions here.

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In addition to faction conflicts, the new kriegstanz also features a fair amount of outside intervention, as exemplar beings and divine powers seek to use the widening battling to their own ends.

As far as exemplars go...heck, they were intervening before the Faction War. There were many exemplars that were faction members. As far as divine powers...yeah, sure, they'll use the conflict for their own ends if they can, but, again, I think they did that (indirectly) before the Faction War, too. Nothing really new here.

Honestly, I think there are two main things that distinguish the post-FW kriegstanz from the pre-FW: First, a wider "battlefield"; they're trying to influence large swaths of the planes now, and not focusing their attentions on Sigil. And second, a lot more players. Now that the pre-FW factions have lost their special status of being housed in Sigil, all the old factions and sects are on a more or less equal footing, and some former "sects" are just as much to be reckoned with as some of the pre-FW factions. There are a lot more players in the game now, and no "sect" can really be safely entirely ignored...

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Kriegstanz in Post-Faction War

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To tell the truth, I question the premise that the Lady was the main thing keeping the factions from entering into open warfare in the first place. Yes, she was responsible for limiting the number of factions, but I don't think there's anything in canon indicating that she took an active role in preventing the factions from fighting.

Not the factions, per se, but it's canon that the Lady prevents, sort of, outright fighting/open warfare in the streets. She's been known to give a fair amount of latitude in this regard (witness the Lower Ward or FW itself) but any faction -- and this includes sects or the exemplars, for that matter -- that wanted to conquer the Cage had to plan to do it immediately, a sort of Sigilian Schlieffen plan. [And we all know how that turned out ;)] That, to me, formed the crucible in which the Faction War was forged; the alliances of which you speak were the tools of their destruction.

[I'm now intrigued by the WWI parallels here, albeit substituting "trench warfare" for "complete evisceration by the Lady of Pain".]

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Kriegstanz in Post-Faction War

'Anarch' wrote:
Not the factions, per se, but it's canon that the Lady prevents, sort of, outright fighting/open warfare in the streets. She's been known to give a fair amount of latitude in this regard (witness the Lower Ward or FW itself) but any faction -- and this includes sects or the exemplars, for that matter -- that wanted to conquer the Cage had to plan to do it immediately, a sort of Sigilian Schlieffen plan. [And we all know how that turned out ;)]

Hm...all right; I'll concede you have a point there. Though I still don't think the Lady was the only thing keeping the factions from open warfare, and I still think a post-FW kriegstanz is very reasonable, under the other scenarios I outlined in my previous post.

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