Klarifikationz please!

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Mick's picture
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Joined: 2005-05-26
Klarifikationz please!

First of all, hello everybody. This is my first post here, I hope I placed it in the right forum, as I found the descriptions a bit confusing (i am no native english-speaking either, that might help).
I have been playing a lot with 1st and 2nd edition D&D but i dropped it a bit before the 3rd edition was released, and fell in oblivion for a few years; luckily I have found a new, fresh group to play with and now I have been playing for months without interruptions, it's great to be back in shape.

However my short story follows: I have been following the planes and planar adventures before the Planescape setting was released, and when it hit the stores, I was fast grabbing everything that came out, from the dragon artciles, blood war cards, ps conspectus on, I had a totally complete Planescape library, but I couldnt access it becouse another player in my group wanted to dm a campaign, so I just kept them safe in my bookshelf for years without reading them much. After the campaign fell apart, I entered a bitter economical period and I had to sell 90% of my planescape collection, which left me with a Monster Manual 2, Faces of Sigil, The Great modron March, the campaign settings, and little more.
Now I am reading everything I can manage to master a decent play, and I just finished the 3rd edition rules and I read The Planescape Campaign Setting cover to cover, but now I am left with a lot of "holes", I am sure someone here might help me with these questions:

Petitioners: Okay, a body on the prime material or any of the outer planes dies (that means elemental creatures do not have souls? I had a character once which was a Fire Elemental plane version of a human, I think I read an article or somewhere on a monstrous compendium that every inner plane has its elemental variant of normal fauna, human included, does he drift to an outer plane or it melds in its inner plane of origin?) and drifts to the plane closest to his alignment, he forgets everything about his former life and starts a new life (unless he is from the Chinese pantheon in which case he has to pass through the palace of judgement first).

In Baator, he turns into a soul shell.
In Mount Celestia, he turns into a Lantern Archon.
In the Beastlands he turns into an animal etc.
So where do the Larvae fit? Are they petitioners of hades? If so why are they said to found in all the lower planes? Does a soul shell evolve into larva and then into lemure and nupperibo and so on?

Has anybody made a list of petitioners of the outlands and how they look like?

Monsters: The Sword Archon is described as cat-headed in the orginal manual of the planes and MC8, but in the Great modrom march she looks like human with wings instead of arms, and in the Book of Exalted Deeds, it becomes a muscular human with flaming swords tha replace its forearms, what's the official version? I usually adhere to the first.

the Outlands: If there are no stars or suns in the sky, are there no shadows either? How do common people describe time if there is no revolution of planets or atomic clocks? I guess they can't speak of hours since this is a earthly measurement. Do they adopt the peak/antipeak timing of Sigil?

Factions: - exactly how many people of sigil belong to a faction or another? It seems from the CS that you either belong to a faction, or you're a clueless prime, but can one planar hold a shop in Sigil and belong to no faction, not even the indeps?
Those who belong to a faction hold a pin, a paper or something to testify they belong to a faction or another, like politic party cards? How can one tell an harmonium from a mercykiller from an anarchist, if not by the speak? they wear some kind of uniforms and if so what are they like? A namer of the harmonium can arrest someone just becouse he slip a few coins to the faction? A player of my group plans to become an harmonium, what's the exact process to become one?

- Guvners are said to enforce laws, they do not make them, but exactly how they know what they are? Do the dabus confer with guvners on behalf of the Lady of Pain every now and then to dictate them what the rules of the city are? Seems a bit against the concept of the uncarig Lady, but then again who wrote the City laws first then?

I have some more but these are a little bit more "urgent".

Thanks in advance for your help!

Nemui's picture
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Joined: 2004-08-30
Re: Klarifikationz please!

"Mick" wrote:
Petitioners: Okay, a body on the prime material or any of the outer planes dies (that means elemental creatures do not have souls?

Basically yes, but the jury is still out on this one. Elemental creatures and other Inner Planars are very diverse. It's quite possible for some of them to have "souls".

Quote:
So where do the Larvae fit?

Long story short, all the Lower Planar petitioners first turn into larvae. The fiends harvest them, and bioengineer them into dretches, manes, lemures, etc.

The thing to remember about petitioners is that each deity/pantheon has its own rules. For example, LE souls that end up in Baator are usually not turned into baatezu if they were devout worshipers of a LE deity - they go to its divine realm and from there on, it's up to the deity...

Quote:
The Sword Archon is described as cat-headed in the orginal manual of the planes and MC8, but in the Great modrom march she looks like human with wings instead of arms, and in the Book of Exalted Deeds, it becomes a muscular human with flaming swords tha replace its forearms, what's the official version? I usually adhere to the first.

Official version of a creature's appearance? Does it matter?

Quote:
Outlands: If there are no stars or suns in the sky, are there no shadows either? How do common people describe time if there is no revolution of planets or atomic clocks? I guess they can't speak of hours since this is a earthly measurement. Do they adopt the peak/antipeak timing of Sigil?

Yes, AFAIK. Sky goes bright, sky goes dark.

Quote:
exactly how many people of sigil belong to a faction or another? It seems from the CS that you either belong to a faction, or you're a clueless prime, but can one planar hold a shop in Sigil and belong to no faction, not even the indeps?

The Cage has changed. Factions were banished, and some are slowly crawling back to power. Download the latest chant on Sigil here:
/products/released.php (it's Chapter 7)

Quote:
Do the dabus confer with guvners on behalf of the Lady of Pain every now and then to dictate them what the rules of the city are?

Er, no. Not in 2E, not in 3E.

ripvanwormer's picture
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Joined: 2004-10-05
Re: Klarifikationz please!

"Mick" wrote:
Petitioners: Okay, a body on the prime material or any of the outer planes dies [i](that means elemental creatures do not have souls?

Outsiders and elementals *are* souls. It's more accurate to say they don't have bodies.

Of course, they do have bodies in most cases, but their bodies are made out of the same stuff their souls are. Only, you know, solid.

Well, not elementals. Elementals animate earth, wind, fire, ooze, radiance or whatever and use that as a body, but it isn't *them*. The elemental itself is a spirit creature, associated with the elements but not truly the elements as such. Or... they're the sentience of the elements. The elements give birth to them and sustain them. It's complicated. Anyway, they can be thought of as souls capable of animating matter. Which is what mortals are, but elemental matter is rawer, purer.

Quote:
In Baator, he turns into a soul shell. In Mount Celestia, he turns into a Lantern Archon. In the Beastlands he turns into an animal etc. So where do the Larvae fit? Are they petitioners of hades? If so why are they said to found in all the lower planes? Does a soul shell evolve into larva and then into lemure and nupperibo and so on?

Like Nemui said: they appear everywhere and slowly evolve into manes (in the Abyss), nothing usually but sometimes hordlings (Gray Waste), or nupperibos (Baator). In Carceri, Pandemonium, Gehenna, and Acheron I'm not certain there are any larvae.

Quote:
Has anybody made a list of petitioners of the outlands and how they look like?

Like they did when they were alive, usually. I envision them with weird glowy eyes and distant voices, but that's just me. In Thoth's realm they often have ibis heads like their patron.

Quote:
Monsters: The Sword Archon is described as cat-headed in the orginal manual of the planes and MC8, but in the Great modrom march she looks like human with wings instead of arms, and in the Book of Exalted Deeds, it becomes a muscular human with flaming swords tha replace its forearms, what's the official version? I usually adhere to the first.

I prefer the flaming sword look, and I guess that's official for 3e. In Planescape, the no-arms form was official because DiTerlizzi decided to draw them that way. In your campaign, you can certainly give them cat heads if you want.

Quote:
ut can one planar hold a shop in Sigil and belong to no faction, not even the indeps?

I guess so, if he wants. But without a faction before the Faction War, the important people of Sigil don't care about you and won't protect you. There's no one to speak for you at the House of Speakers. The laws are set up for the benefit of the factions. Life is hard in the Cage without any faction support. The Free League loudly maintains that they aren't a real faction, so most people who don't want to join a faction join them.

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Those who belong to a faction hold a pin, a paper or something to testify they belong to a faction or another, like politic party cards?

Some do, some don't. The Anarchists certainly don't, since being an Anarchist is illegal and they're all pretending to belong to a different faction. The Free League doesn't - they're not a faction, they say. The Xaositects might occasionally, but they probably change what they consider to be the official "I'm a Xaositect" document every day - tomorrow it might be a pin, today it's a sandwich. Next week it might be a tattoo. Yesterday it was a cranium rat that every Xaositect was supposed to keep in their pocket even though most weren't stupid enough to bother. The Harmonium, the Guvners, the Mercykillers, the Fated, and probably even the Doomguard probably have various official objects recognizing their members - for the Sinkers it's probably a sword each member gets, usually with the Doomguard symbol on it but I imagine that's optional.

Quote:
they wear some kind of uniforms

Harmonium officers get uniforms - it's the red armor. Ordinary Namers who belong to the Harmonium but aren't officers don't have uniforms. Same thing with the Mercykillers - they get uniforms if they have a job as executioner, torturer, bounty-hunter or whatever, working for the faction directly, but ordinary Mercykillers who simply belong to the faction because they believe in justice don't have uniforms.

Most factions probably don't have uniforms, though a character's manner of dress might reflect their faction's ideals. Dustmen have standard-issue robes, but they don't have to wear them if they don't want to. Bleakers wouldn't bother with a uniform or dressing alike - what's the point? Life's too short to worry about such things.

Probably 90 - 99% of all faction members aren't very serious about their faction, remember. They're ordinary people who go to faction meetings once a week or once a month. They might have a jacket with their faction symbol on it but they hardly ever wear it. Their children might go to faction-sponsored schools. They have jobs that aren't related to their faction in any way.

Quote:
and if so what are they like? A namer of the harmonium can arrest someone just becouse he slip a few coins to the faction?

No, not unless he's an officer. Being a Hardhead doesn't make you a cop; it makes you someone who believes in the power of harmony. Being a cop is extra.

Quote:
A player of my group plans to become an harmonium, what's the exact process to become one?

It's exactly like joining the military. You sign up, and they take you to Arcadia and you stay in boot camp for a few months while they train you. Then you come back and you're an entry-level Harmonium officer.

But you don't have to be an officer. You can just be a regular person who wears the Harmonium symbol. You don't get any special powers or anything, but the Harmonium will look out for you, get you health care and school your children. And you're one more note in the coming symphony, doing your part to save the multiverse through mutual agreement.

Quote:
- Guvners are said to enforce laws, they do not make them, but exactly how they know what they are?

Pre-Faction War, the leaders of the factions (except the Free League and the Anarchists, since the Free League aren't a faction and the Anarchists are illegal) voted on what the laws should be. The Xaositects get the same vote as the Guvners, so laws in Sigil are pretty weird. The Guvners write down what everyone decides and they interpret and compile those laws; they judge whether or not people have broken them in the courts.

After the Faction War, there's a council made up of prominent members of the community. They vote on the laws, and the dabus act as judges with the help of former members of the Fraternity of Order - the dabus probably won't be doing this for long, since they're really not suited to it. It's more of an emergency post-war thing.

I wrote about an imaginary council session in this story.

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Do the dabus confer with guvners on behalf of the Lady of Pain every now and then to dictate them what the rules of the city are?

Definitely not. No one knows what the Lady of Pain wants for certain. She's given two edicts that I know of - there shall be no more than fifteen factions, and then after the war she said that certain factions were no longer welcome in the city. But how do you interpret them? She's given no clues, so some of the factions stayed with their names changed or in new forms, or without a formal leadership.

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who wrote the City laws first then?

Very first? I'm not sure - early Sigilian history is unclear. Maybe the guilds, or ancient factions, or the fiends and celestials meeting with the rilmani, slaadi, and modrons, or some planewalking nation. Maybe the Lady of Pain did, but it was so long ago no one remembers exactly what her laws were

Mick's picture
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Klarifikationz please!

Thanks a lot guys, you're really helping me out of this.

I assume then, that even Elemental planes have their own "petitioners", so if you destroy an earth elemental (well, its physical form) it basically rises up in another place in the same plane or something like that, after a period of recoil. As for intelligent elemental beings they probably also lose memory like outsider petitioners do, and they just reform in the same plane they died. It's like a body that is born in Arcadia and when it dies, it is reborn in arcadia as a petitioner.. might work?

Not sure where the soul shell fits in Baator then, if I got it right, if you pray to a god whose domain is in baator, you first turn into a larva and then evolve into a petitioner whose aspect reflects his god's domain, or a soul shell if you have no specific god. Then you move on to a higher form of evil, and become a baatezu. Correct?

Thanks ripwan for the Faction help, it helped a lot.

I still havent clear if shadows exists in the Outalnds tho, if light comes from every angle, it might look weird... that means all flora there is magical in some way.

Also this is mostly an historical question, how do you identify a person without an ID card? Say I buy an armor and paint a mercykiller symbol on it, and decapitate a person in the middle of the street, how could one say that I am not a Mercykiller? Maybe mercyckillers, harmonium and guvner names are recorded in the hall of records? So every time anything like this happens the harmonium are probably taking me to the guvenrs to ceritfy my id?

Clueless's picture
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Joined: 2008-06-30
Klarifikationz please!

"Mick" wrote:
I still havent clear if shadows exists in the Outalnds tho, if light comes from every angle, it might look weird... that means all flora there is magical in some way.
Mmmm - actually I'd think there *is* shadows. Think of it as if it were a permanently overcast day. (Or England 99% of the time) The light is diffused across the sky but it is there. So the shadows will be there just not so firm that you can pin a direction to things. I'd say if you *have* to pin down a light direction (for art purposes or the like), go with spireward. It's such a small detail it's not going to come up in most games.

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