Kinks to be Worked Out.

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Duckluck's picture
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Kinks to be Worked Out.

Okay, I've been reading through the Ortho PDF and identifying problems that need to be worked out in order to make this setting shine. For the most part, I'm going to just ignore problems with spelling or grammar for now, in part because the sheer number of different misspellings for simple words like "mountain" would fill pages, never mind the hard to spell ones. Rather, this has to do with certain vagueries and errors of a more conceptual error. A few of these I touched on over at the To Do List, but many of these are just things I've noticed. Anyway, here goes:

We're supposed to be writing from a Prime point of view!

I know this is a Planescape board, and using words like "dark" instead of mysterious and "power" instead of "god" is second nature to most of us (hell it took me a hundred pages to notice), but Ortho isn't Planescape. Ortho is its own independent setting with its own feel and flavor, and the locals most certainly do not speak Planar Cant. Refering to the entire population of Ortho, or even just its government as "The Harmonium," is what a Planar would do. An actual citizen of Ortho would only ever use the word "Harmonium" to describe the millitary. Ortho will never feel like its own setting if we insist on treating it like just another part of Planescape.

The same goes for less obvious quirks of perspective. Using a passage from a Guvner guide to Ortho is a useful conceit, but, for the most part, the Campaign Setting should read like it was written on Ortho by actual Orthorians. At the very least we should include a more excepts from Orthorian literature and more "man on the street" type input from prominent and not so prominent Orthorians. Sort of like what we did with the quotes from various bloods in the later chapters of the PSCS. Why do we need to do this? Well, because...

Ortho feels empty!

Here and there we'll see a breif blurb about the students at the College of the Choir, or the plight of the poor Orthorian Dyers toiling away in dangerous but necessary work while the rest of society shuns them, but for the most part, Ortho seems like it's inhabited more by ideas and groups than actual people. Take the otherwise great write-up on Harmony's Glory, for instance. We are given the District's demographics, industries, and styles of architecture, but we are told very little about the beliefs, desires, and cultural quirks of the people who live there. The only people who are mentioned at all are various high ups, and they are only given brief descriptions. If I decided to start running an Ortho game today, I would have no idea what an ordinary barkeep in Harmony's Glory would act like. That's a problem. Of course, the biggest reason for this problem is...

Ortho needs more NPCs!

Finally we come to what may well be the heart of the matter. Ortho doesn't have nearly enough NPCs, and the ones it does have tend to be poorly defined. that's why the provinces seem empty and undefined, and it also may be why we've been having so much trouble getting into the Orthorian mindset. This is currently the only problem I'm actually doing anything about (although I did recruit a friend to help solve the Beholder problem -- more on that later). I'm currenly making slow progress down a simply massive list of NPCs that need to be described and/or statted. I'm chipping away at them, but it's really slow going and I could use all the help I can get. This, of course, has lead to me discovering another problem...

Beholders make lousy characters!

It's not so much that Beholders are hard to conceptualize and write personalities for (although there is a bit of that), so much as the fact that the race itself really unwieldy to use. I won't go into the nitty gritty of it, but suffice to say that Beholders are quite difficult to make and use as NPCs and next to impossible to use as PCs. Official attempts to make them usable, such as the unspeakably ill-concieved Beholder Mage in Lords of Madness, have simply made things harder and our own attempts to make them work haven't been terribly ambitious or well-executed. No offense, but the Beholder Monster Class we have now is a total mess and probably isn't even worth fixing.

I've recruited a friend of mine to come up with a way to make Beholders playable as PCs and he has come up with a clever -- if somewhat unorthodox way to fix the problem. Expect to hear from him soon. This of course creates its own problems in that the beholders we already have will need to be re-statted, but we don't actually have that many finished beholders, so it shouldn't be a huge deal. Anyway, let's move onto bigger fish.

We have a problem with terminology!

The following terms have been used incorrectly, overly-broadly, or inconsistently throughout the text: Hardhead, Harmonium, the state, and Knights of Harmony. This is probably an incomplete list.

What's the deal with the demographics?

Beholders reproduce slowly and infrequently, have long life-cyles, and have in the past participated in massive internal genocidal wars that brought the entire race to its knees. On top of that, they are insular, xenophobic, and not terribly fond of other races, so why are there so many in the other provinces? About a third of the the provinces with listed demographics are currenly listed as being five, ten, or even fifteen percent beholder. Keep in mind, most of thes provinces have populations numbering in the millions. That would mean that in provinces like Iirondia that are 15% beholder there are hundreds of thousands of Beholders floating around. I'm not sure there are supposed to be that many beholders in all of Kel'nin.

But while the Beholders are bizarrely numerous, other races, particularly dwarves, kobolds, and minor races that are hardly mentioned, are strangly under-populated. Combine these problems with the number of provinces that have no listed demographics at all, and its clear that more work needs to be done on that front.

We need more info on Ortho's government!

So far, we have nothing established as to how Octaves and Councilors are selected, whether Octaves can be impeached, what the various rules of discourse are, and a million other things. I plan to work on a full write-up on Ortho's government, as soon as I finish populating the Octave, but it may be a little while.

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*Thread touch so I get updates on it*

And yeah - you're pretty much right on the money here about the things missing. For some reason in the first round of development NPCS were like the red-headed step-child of design. They're a dire need. Eye-wink

And I've actually got an answer for you on the demographics issues - which is namely that the current numbers are at best, placeholders.

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The reluctance to imagine NPCs makes some sense, actually NPCs need a setting to be tied into. If they don't have a proper context, it's hard to make them seem like part of the world and not just this guy who happens to be living in this one place -- which is why I wish people would get around to describing Voll and Heka so I can do something with them. I have one of the Octaves as being tentatively from Voll, but I won't be able to incorporate that background until I know a little bit more about Voll.

Add to that the fact that Ortho has existed as a concept (the unified Harmonium homeword) for far longer than it has been a place where people actually lived, and the last piece falls into place. If the Ortho project had started with the NPCs, they would have wound up something like characters in the original Star Wars, all either devoted (but functionally identityless) servants of the evil empire, scoundrels supporting the winning side, or rag tag rebels. Which is why it was important to lay the the conceptual ground work. By having a setting before we populate it, we can craft the NPCs to fit the setting, rather than being forced to squeeze the setting around our NPCs.

That's my take on it, anyway.

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Okay, I've got a few more:

The gods are boring!
The Lords of Law rival Eberron's Sovereign Host for sheer blandness, and the Host is supposed to be generic. The gods are all a little bit too straightforward, and a little bit too simple.

The gods are too human!
Human dieties work fine for a setting like the Forgotten Realms, but I really think Ortho needs its gods to be a little bit more abstract and idea-based. For one thing, all the gods are currently portrayed as being humans. Does that mean the other races have to worship foreign gods or the dreaded racial dieties (which I really don't want for Ortho -- they reek of writer laziness)?

The gods have some strange histories.
I think the gods should be allowed to keep their general roles and identities, but their specific forms and much of their history should be tweaked to make them be a little more godly. The first thing I'd get rid of or at least change is Diurdin's rape of Alae. Not only does it make the gods feel just a little bit too human, but the absurd notion that he could attack her home and violently rape her and then repent and have her want to marry him is probably not the message we want to be sending. I know stuff like that happened in a lot of older myths, but this seems like a pretty extreme example, and, frankly, I find the whole thing vaguely offensive.

As for non-god-related ones:

Omospondia is too Greek!
I don't know when it was decided that Omospondia was going to be an obvious doppelganger for Greece, but it needs to stop. As it is, Omospondia really is just Hellenistic Greece with the names and a few other details changed. Iskandros is Alexander, Phemis is Athens, etc. It's unispired, derivitive, and, frankly, boring. A lot of it feels like it would be more appropiate in a history textbook or the introduction to Herodotus' Histories (which, by the way, is a great book that I highly recomend to those who haven't read it) than a fantasy world. The section about the importance of the Polis in Omospondian life, for instance, is totally out of place. For one thing, there is no reason to use the Greek word "Polis" when "City-State" means the same thing. Elsewhere, it refers to the "Drako" Sea despite the fact that everywhere else it is called the "Dragon" sea (which happens to be the same name as the central sea in Faerun, but that's a different problem). I mean why call it Drako in the first place? I get wanting to draw inspiration from greek culture, but this goes way beyond just borrowing themes. I think Omospondia needs a bit of a re-write.

Hazkhan and Bafatai need histories!

It's one thing for the Harmonium to say that these savage lands or isolated backwaters have no history to speak of, but just try to tell the DM that. I'm pretty much figuring these are place-holders, as it would be foolish to say any place doesn't have a history, especially somewhere as complex as Hazhkan.

What's the deal with the Dwarfs?
In some places they're described as being insect-like (in one instance, they're even described as being "Chitinous," although I suspect the author misunderstood the meaning of the word), but other times they are treated as being normal like normal Dwarfs from every other setting. We need a good write-up on them and quickly.

What about all the other races?
We have the four core races on Ortho: Humans, Dwarves, Beholders, and Orcs. We have the less important races like Rakshasa and Kobolds. Then we have the dead races like Fay, elves, most halflings, goblins (and other Goblinoids?), and Gnomes (although why they would kill a Neutral Good race associated with a Good and Lawful plane is beyond me) have all been killed off. But what about the other races that haven't been mentioned?

Does Ortho have Minotaurs, Grimlocks, Gnolls, Lizardfolk, Troglodytes, Raptorans, Aaracokra, or whatever else? What about more exotic races such as Coatls or Aboleth? Ortho feels a little bland right now, and one way we can spice it up is with clever races

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Ortho's had a good start, but I think that while we've covered the "shallow end" of the setting (the basics), we're now heading for uncharted waters - I think people have been hesitant to post more in-depth writeups becuase although we have geography and basic cultural ideas down, what's currently lacking is how it feels to live on Ortho. To switch metaphors we've a decent list of ingredients but have yet to really taste the flavour. What's it really like to live under Harmonium rule, both inside the system and out of it?

People (myself included) are understandibly reluctant to go making decisions that are going to define the whole of Ortho - but someone has to do it or we'll never get more than the bare bones of a setting. Hopefully I'm going to start posting more cultural stuff but I think that should be the general aim of everyone at this point.

Just my two bits

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Of course, we also still need to lay down some more ground work. Particularly on empty provinces like Heka and Voll and on the government and military. I'm working on the government right now, but we really need someone to describe the inner workings of the Harmonium (which, remember, is just the military, although they have more responsibilities than your average army).

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'Duckluck' wrote:
What's the deal with the Dwarfs? In some places they're described as being insect-like (in one instance, they're even described as being "Chitinous," although I suspect the author misunderstood the meaning of the word), but other times they are treated as being normal like normal Dwarfs from every other setting. We need a good write-up on them and quickly.

They have several different cultures. Some of them are insect-like in culture, some aren't.

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That's about what I'd figured. Either way, it seems like our dwarfs still need a lot of work.

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One of the things I was looking at with the dwarves was playing up some dark history on them involving how that mix of culture and bloodline even with the beholders came about. There's something there to hang some nice PrClasses and cultural conflicts on.

re: the gods - I actually *like* the more humanized aspects of them, reserving the abstract for the elder ones. Though I can definately see your point with the rape. The reason I hadn't taken a tighter look at that though was because i very very much like the aspect of intense repentance in the character. It's something not seen often with powers and I think it's fitting for one like this. What crime can we replace that with that will still allow that intensity?

As for non-human races... we think of human as the default, but it may be worthwhile to emphasize the idea that these are cross-race. The Lords of Order rule this sphere and rather like it that way. They will present themselves to their worshipers in a form fitting - and the OCA certainly helps the spread. The cultural pantheons *are* weak writing and I'd like to avoid them.

I'd like leave the Lords (perhaps they avoid depiction of themselves in icons to avoid being too tied to a race?) as in charge, with the acceptable sub powers of certain of the races approved as well as sects or sanctioned cults. I don't recall what formal phrase we used for it - but there was an option essentially for outsiders like St. Cubreth, and other appropriate deities to become junior members or guest members of the pantheon. Not that they had to subsume themselves entirely to the pantheon, but that on Ortho itself, they were lesser.

Adding a section on that to the religion part and adding some non-human myths may help in making them a generalized aspect to the world.

re:Omospondia. I agree actually. Shoehorning that section of the world into the rest was a little touchy, and while the basic idea of the cities is great - I'd like to spin it off a little further.

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Regarding the rape of Alae, the rape itself doesn't necessarilly need to be taken out (although we should definitely call it what it was instead the constant stream of euphemisms we have now), or the repentance, for that matter (I actually found the basic premise somewhat compelling). No, what really bothers me is that she would marry him afterwards. I can sort of see her forgiving him, eventually, but after what he put her through, I can't see her even wanting to stay in the same room with him for very long, much less fall in love with him.

If we want to keep that portion of the backstory, what I suggest is having her children be products of the rape, and, although she eventually forgives him, there is nothing more to their relationship, and they still don't get along so well.

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That sounds good - they can certainly be reluctant allies against greater foes and that adds a layer of complexity that we can use later. Ina's efforts would have been to heal her - getting her to marry, meh, an irrelevant side-effect to the need for getting the girl's head screwed on straight, as far as Ina is concerned.

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'Clueless' wrote:
I'd like leave the Lords (perhaps they avoid depiction of themselves in icons to avoid being too tied to a race?) as in charge, with the acceptable sub powers of certain of the races approved as well as sects or sanctioned cults.

Couldn't agree more. I envision the Lords of Order as presenting themselves as more like cosmic forces than the normal view of gods - a group dipicting themselves in abstract non-human forms that can be easily assimilated by local races and cultures - individual names and apperances are essentially devisive after all, and the Harmonium is striving for a single faith to be worshipped in the same way everywhere.

Within each region, traditional local gods are still named in prayers, but these are really just aspects of the great 'Lords of Order' and their single unified church. Its just that here most people call him St. Cuthbert, etc... overall however, I think that the Harmonium would prefer to see a faith built around the LG philosophy (say, the Seven Virtues and Seven Sins) that includes the Lawful Powers than a multi-deity "super-pantheon" of individual gods. That sounds a bit too chaotic given all the dogma involved...

And hey, in the end even the Gods are going to have to join the Harmonium and tow the line.

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'Armoury99' wrote:
And hey, in the end even the Gods are going to have to join the Harmonium and tow the line.

And some already have. Eye-wink

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I think a good model for Ortho's dieties would be like Eberron's Sovereign Host but less generic (and again, the Sovereign Host were supposed to be generic, so we don't want to emulate them totally). Here's just a preliminary write-up to get something on paper:

Secrets of Ortho:* The True Nature of the Lords
The Lords of Law and Chaos are abstract entities that can vary widely in how they are depicted from culture to culture. Alae, for instance is seen by the humans as the goddess of healing and self-sacrifice and is generally depicted as a beautiful young human woman in a flowing gown who is often cradling a child. The lizardfolk, by contrast, associate Alae with protectiveness and vigilance and prefer to depict her as an older lizardfolk woman wielding a barbed spear and watching over her young. From a historian's standpoint, it is impossible to determine which depiction is "right" -- people aren't even sure what race Alae was, but that doesn't stop theologians from arguing passionately over the subject. The same is true for all the other gods. The followers of the gods vary as well. The church of Saedunical, for instance, varies widely in its visciousness from brutal orc inquisitors to kind Merfolk knights. Sometimes different cultures argue over these differences, but for the most part they are suprisingly tolerant and accept that the gods are the imbodiments of ideas as much as tangible entities and can therefore be worshiped in many forms.

That's not to say that the gods of Ortho are totally intangible. They exist, certainly, and occasionally manifest themselves on Ortho (although such occurences are excedingly rare even among the faithful). They make themselves known through less direct means as well, such as granting spells to their worshippers and occasionally letting the faithful visit their divine realms.. It is true though that the Lords of Ortho are far less inclined to intercede directly in the lives of mortals than the gods of other worlds. Indeed, during the five hundred years of the Pax Harmonium there have only been six confirmed cases of Avatars of the Lords of Law manifesting on Ortho (the most recent one happened nearly two centuries ago), less than two dozen cases of direct divine intervention (the last one happened about five years ago when all two hundred Orthorian worshipers of the evil interloper deity Vecna were struck down at once), and, perhaps most tellingly, no cases of any of the Lords of Law taking a mortal as a consort. Some people have claimed that the Lords of Law are growing weak and complacent, but the faithful tend to see the gods' lack of intervention as a good thing and a sign that they've done something right.

*I'm advocating calling our out-of-character sections "Secrets of Ortho" because "DM's Darks" is just too Planescapey, and I want the setting to have it's own identity -- one that frowns on slang.

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'Duckluck' wrote:
Secrets of Ortho:* The True Nature of the Lords *I'm advocating calling our out-of-character sections "Secrets of Ortho" because "DM's Darks" is just too Planescapey, and I want the setting to have it's own identity -- one that frowns on slang.

"Secrets of Ortho" sounds good. But as it reads, it looks like this section would be knowledge that was available to PCs. This might be the Player's version, and the true Secrets of Ortho would go into much more detail, say how much of the rumor is true.

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Perhaps the DM's Dark's phrase could be : "Ina's Lore"?

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'Clueless' wrote:
Perhaps the DM's Dark's phrase could be : "Ina's Lore"?

Genius. I love it.

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Yay! I'm loved! Smiling

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Just to throw in a bit of thought...

* New Monsters: I've created a home for Dragons on Ortho, a Home for Hobgoblins, a place for Illithids, and also explained the genocide of the Gnomes.

So I've tried to rectify some of the setting blandness. If we get around to doing the Isles I think some other additions would be welcome like a secret Githyanki base or surviving pockets of Gnomes and Halflings.

Oddly, a race I'd like to use on Ortho would be the Giff (the Smokepowder wielding hippos from Spelljammer as they make perfect allies for the Harmonium.

* The Gods: I'd like to see someone (and by someone, I suspect people will look at me) doing some write ups for the Divine Realm of the Lords of Order. It'll, obviously, be in Mechanus (which makes the irony of the Harmonium's HQ in Arcadia all the moreso)

I like them as just another set of Planar Powers. I *HATE* the distance of the Sovereign Host and almost left the Ortho project because I saw people wanted that. Thankfully, they're portrayed as VERY human and VERY emotional with the HARMONIUM trying to make them distant.

The more people treat them as strongly individualist personalities and not abstract and the more the Harmoim tries to make them so, the more I like it.

I also wrote up Alzrius as an atypical Lord of the Abyss.

* NPCs: I think we have all the provinces detailed and its now time to start inserting them. We don't need to have TOO many write ups, just a few examples for each and major figures of government.

The book shouldn't be the size of War and Peace after all.

But what we really need now is commentary I think.

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Quote:
I like them as just another set of Planar Powers. I *HATE* the distance of the Sovereign Host and almost left the Ortho project because I saw people wanted that.

I think you might be referring to me there. Note that the first thing I did when discussing the Sovereign Host in this thread was mock them for being lame. The host is so boring it hurts, but it's also the best attempt I've seen to make gods that feel like gods. I hate how the gods in FR are more human than a lot of the humans in the setting (I'm looking at you Elminster) and get killed off and brought back more frequently than second-rate superheroes. The Host, at least, get to be gods all the time.

I don't want the Lords of Order to be boring and generic like the Host or straightforwardly human like the FR gods, I want them to be complex, multifaceted, and both human and inhuman (and dwarven and undwarven, and lizarfolkish, and unlizardfolkish, and orcish and unorcish, etc.). For starters, they shouldn't have one mythology, but many, nor one depiction.

For instance, Saeduenical is not just an zealous goddess out to get revenge for what happened to her mother, but in Motmurck she's also a vengeance spirit who punishes orc men who break pacts by keeping them from finding wives. In Urflheim she once carried the souls of dead warriors to paradise, but the great warrior Ulgor cut off her magical wings so she wouldn't take away his wife's spirit. Now she wanders Ortho punishing all those who would try to cheat death and the souls of the dead have to make their own way to paradise (which is where ghosts come from). Other Urflheimer legends have her be a goddess of the sea who will protect anyone with a righteous cause from storms (apparently punishing death cheaters is just a hobby). The Thaerans say The Trickster stole her heart and replaced it with ice while she was sleeping and that's why she's so mean. The Beholders tell stories about her (not that the Beholders see her as female) cruelty to frighten their young into following their orders... I think you get the idea.

What I want to see in the god write-ups is less history and more mythology. I mean, cool stories are half the point of having gods in the first place. The stories don't even have to agree with each other. In fact, I'd prefer it if some of them didn't. I'm also not sure if I like the idea of giving them a defined divine realm. It may suck some of the mystery out of them. Perhaps their realm is closed to the still living as part of an ancient pact with the faithful (I imagine the mythology surrounding the Lords is going to be be full of ancient pacts)? At the very least they'd want to keep the Department of Meta-physical Harmony from poking their head in or trying to fine them for petitioner abuse.

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Maybe.

I like to keep the fact that I don't want this divorced from Planescape either. It's a Prime Material setting and it's able to be played by non-Planescape fans but the Lords of Order should be as indefinable and mysterious as the Powers of PS but not necessarilly moreso.

Just my .02.

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* On the Gods

'Duckluck' wrote:
the Sovereign Host in this thread was mock them for being lame. The host is so boring it hurts, but it's also the best attempt I've seen to make gods that feel like gods. I hate how the gods in FR are more human than a lot of the humans in the setting

I agree completely with Duckluck.

99% of all the D&D gods are very poorly crafted and poorly detailed, following the 'supermen' stereotype but without the myth and wonder that actually made gods popular (indeed FR is particularly bad at this, but every setting is guilty to some extent - probably out of fear that anything that looked remotely like an actual real deity might offend someone and end up costing market share). I'm desperate for the Lords of Order (and their counterparts) to feel like the kind of divinity that PCs really could have faith in. Its generally easy to spot the well developped deities in D&D - they're the ones stolen directly from the real world.

The 'one unified religion' (basically Pantheon-worship, nothing new really) is an evolution of a process that started in Ortho's past: We know that Didairdin was an altogether less LG god in the old days, and that several other faiths were slowly amalgamated into his, and then the whole thing was slowly 'harmonised' into its current form - and that the same was done for the other Lords. The Harmonium is about Unity and ideally they'd like everyone to be worshipping exactly the same deities in exactly the same way. That's not to say its going to happen however.

In essence, the Pantheonist and anti-Pantheonist debate is ongoing in the conclaves and synods of Ortho right now and has been for generations with no sign of being resolved any time soon. I don't think we should come down too heavily on either side in design, but leave the question (and potential religious conflict) open for DMs to exploit of shift the balance in whichever direction suits them. I have to admit that I'd prefer Pantheon worship (its makes most sense as a Harmonium agenda), but each deity needs more colour individually anyway so I don't think you need to worry about us expunging individual deities from the setting... we just don't want 957 gods like the FR when we have a perfectly good set already.

As to how I think the churches should be presented 'in-character', pardon the egotism but I'm going to quote myself :oops: (from the Ortho's Gods thread, based on the PDF info):

Quote:
Over the years - by deliberate design - the Harmonium has managed to convert the worship of other deities into worship of the Lords, rather like the way Christianity infiltrated pagan europe and the 'Romanisation' of foreign gods into the Roman Empire's pantheon...

...The vast majority of people on Ortho worship the Lords of Order (its considered 'harmoniuous'). Since the Harmonium spread to other worlds and planes however, a number of other deities have been 'approved' for worship by devout Hardheads. The churches of Ortho would like these new gods to eventually be amalgamated into the 'Lords of Order' as others have been, but that's still a long way off - and its not certain to happen. Hieroneous and Cuthbert are unlikely to become mere 'aspects of Didairdin' for example, unless their homeworld of Oerth becomes a Harmonium Province for several hundred years... not that the Harmonium aren't trying; as far as they're concerned, everyone has to join the Harmonium and do what's best for Unity - and that includes the gods.

Those are my thoughts anyway.

'Charles Phipps' wrote:
I'd like to see some write ups for the Divine Realm of the Lords of Order.

Frankly, I'm not bothered about the Planar Realms too much, becuase the more you detail them the less mysterious they'll be and because Ortho is a good old-fashioned Prime world and not about galavanting around the Outer Planes. There's a very good setting around for that already.

Obviously the heavens need detailing somewhat, and as long as they add to the mythology and are described in an appropriate Primer religious style, I'm all for it, but I don't think that we need too much info on Realms for this project (a Planescape article woudl be different).

I'm also worried about creating more complications than atmosphere. For example: We know that the original Lords of Order were somewhat different from their modern versions portrayed in OCA religion. Is Didairdin really the repentant LG god that the Harmonium scriptures now portray him as? If not, shouldn't his realm reflect his actual alignment? If he really is LG now, isn't he straying from the alignment of his Plane? I know that gods don't exactly have to match, but its just one example of a lot of strange settups that the Ortho Pantheon seem to have.

Its hard to put into words exactly what my problem with it is, but basically I think the Planescape setting's style is that "things don't really work like the Primes think they do" and I want to avoid writeups in that style and concentrate on the Prime prospective, at least for the first volume of the Ortho Project. I think that makes sense.

'Charles Phipps' wrote:
obviously, be in Mechanus (which makes the irony of the Harmonium's HQ in Arcadia all the moreso).

Do you mean some kind of 'celestial sorting room' where all worshippers of the Lords of Ortho go for judgement? Individual Realms would naturally be spread across the Planes of Law. Judging by their alignments however, I'd say that Arcadia really is the moral centre-point of the pantheon. Its even stated in the 2e material that Arcadia is the spiritual home of the Harmonium and the plane that most matches their philosophy.

* New Monsters

I think that all the iconic monsters need a section briefly describing how they fit into Ortho and her colonies, becuase if they were enemies the Harmonium basically beat them and if they were allies the Harmonium basically embraced them.

* NPCs

I agree about the NPCs, as most DMs will create such characters from scratch to match their needs anyway. You're right that a few quality examples will serve us best.

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Quote:
Obviously the heavens need detailing somewhat, and as long as they add to the mythology and are described in an appropriate Primer religious style, I'm all for it, but I don't think that we need too much info on Realms for this project (a Planescape article woudl be different).

I sort of want to emphasize what the Harmonium is trying to achieve. If you want to place it on Arcadia, that would be cool. Actually, what I think would be tremendously awesome is that the Realm of The Lords of Order should be placed on NEMAUSUS. That way we could emphasize that the Harmonium actually shifted the Layer of Arcadia because they made the Lords of Order into such a generic deity and countless Lawful Evil and Lawful Neutral souls started heading there.

Smiling

But yes, it would show the Harmonium ideal and why they're so desperate to get Nemausus back.

As for "Why Mechanus", I think it's important to also stick with the Olympian feel of things. The Gods of Olympus include many of wildly different alignments but they all inhabit Arborea. The same for the Gods of the Aesir whom all live on Ysgard. I think people would be somewhat confused if the Lords of Order weren't on the plane of Mechanus even if some of them are Good. Likewise, I tend to think that the Lords of Chaos should have their realm on Limbo.

But I'm very much for emphasizing the Order vs. Chaos struggle.

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'Charles Phipps' wrote:
[Actually, what I think would be tremendously awesome is that the Realm of The Lords of Order should be placed on NEMAUSUS.

That is an interesting idea. I don't think there's anywhere in the multiverse that better exemplifies the Harmonium. It shifted because the Harmonium philosophy in action turned out to be less good than Arcadia was.

Some gods have multiple realms. It's possible that some of the Lords of Order have realms on other planes, while Ortho's belief gave them a communal realm in Nemausus.

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It would make sense that the Harmonium set up its training camps at the heart of its planar influence - and make it even more desperate to get that layer back. The communal realm seems the most likely option, especially since you have various deities from outside the Ortho pantheon involved too.

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