Khagan; Because I like arguement more than you do.

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Dire Lemon's picture
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Khagan; Because I like arguement more than you do.

'Khagan' wrote:
'Dire Lemon' wrote:
I hope you didn't just join this forum to try to convince everyone that men and women are physically identical.

I never said anything about realism because I knew that someone would immediately make this tired and meaningless argument. Would you be happy with humans bleeding iced tea and sweating Gatorade then trading it to the elves for free movie tickets even though movies don't exist in the setting? No, because that's stupid and completely inconsistent. So are identical sexes in humans.


Obvious strawman is obvious. You've gotta be trying to troll me, there's no other explanation. (Which is funny, I have to love your attempt at irony.)

I don't quite follow how you got to that conclusion. I made up something unrealistic that was as unrealistic as magic but allot stupider considering the subject material to show that realism has nothing to do with it.

'Khagan' wrote:
*EDIT: Yes, I do realize that my first post was itself a strawman of epic proportions, but that was the point. It was an exaggeration of a viewpoint that is itself absurd. Kobold and Azure realized this at least, and I imagine that so do most people who read it.

Well I thought that was blatantly obvious. That's why we're arguing. Isn't it?

'Khagan' wrote:
But don't claim you didn't bring realism up. What's the word you used? Anachronistic? Well what's that but a fancy and specific way of saying unrealistic?

What it is, is this.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anachronism

'Khagan' wrote:
But it doesn't matter. You are trolling the troll, after all. But let me ask one question
Quote:
The whole physically identical sexes thing in D&D is just a misguided anachronistic concession to modern feminism. The game would likely be called sexist if it tried to differentiate between the abilities of men and women. Men and women should be equal, but they are no more identical than cocks and hens.
This is the quote that my "troll" post replied to. I took this quote to mean that you think that there should be stat differences between male and female PCs. Was I wrong?

If I was, sorry.

If I was right, well, you need to realize that we're talking about a game, something that's supposed to entertain people. An RPG whose purpose is to allow you to play someone who is the exception to the rule, someone who defies conventions and stereotypes, someone who is unique. If you can't atleast understand that, then you're the one with the problems, not me.

This last bit is hard to come up with a response to. It seems like it was just an overly drawn out way of saying "I don't care what you're trying to say or why. I'm right and you're wrong. Also, you're mentally unstable." Can't really argue with that kind of attitude.

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Khagan; Because I like arguement more than you do.

Two points:

1) starting a thread specifically to continue an arguement is probably not a good idea unless you can keep it civil.

2)

Quote:
If I was right, well, you need to realize that we're talking about a game, something that's supposed to entertain people. An RPG whose purpose is to allow you to play someone who is the exception to the rule, someone who defies conventions and stereotypes, someone who is unique. If you can't atleast understand that, then you're the one with the problems, not me.

This last bit is hard to come up with a response to. It seems like it was just an overly drawn out way of saying "I don't care what you're trying to say or why. I'm right and you're wrong. Also, you're mentally unstable." Can't really argue with that kind of attitude.

While the last sentence of his arguement was uncalled for, his arguement is sound. What he's saying isn't "I dont care." Instead, he's pointing out that the PCs are by their very nature supposed to be heroes, and therefor exceptional. Most people in Dnd settings are assumed to have few, if any, class levels in an NPC class. The PCs can become high-level warriors and mages capable of going toe-to-toe with hellspawn.

What I think Khagan is saying is that with such a noticeable difference between commoners and PCs of the male variety already in place, its not absurd to regard the same stating of the sexes in DnD as declaring that Female heroes are heroes too, and are exceptional examples of their gender. This allows them to be at least as capable as their male counterparts.

Is this an exception to the rule? Yes, but so are 4 out of 5 characters in any campaign.

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Khagan; Because I like arguement more than you do.

[mod]So you folks know, since this topic nearly got to flame war status in the other thread I will be keeping a close eye on it to keep it from boiling over much as I have for other tricky subjects.

Which is to say: keep it clean, and of a non-personal nature. Keep your arguments firmly on the source cited and sensible side of things and away from personal judgments about another's approach. When in doubt: review the rules. Please be good so I don't have to step in.[/mod]

Dire Lemon's picture
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Khagan; Because I like arguement more than you do.

Clueless: I promise that I'll try my best to keep it civil.

BERK:

1) Well Khagan started this arguement and hasn't made any posts so far since he joined the forum that haven't been part of it. So I don't think what I've done is so bad.

2) I think you need to think your argument over a bit more. What you're saying is that women need to be exactly the same as men so that they can be unique. 'We should make everyone the same so that they can all be unique.' Think about that.

Both of your arguments seem to assume that women would not be able to achieve anything without being artificially made identical to men, reality has constantly proven this wrong. The next US president is likely to be a woman. Denial of the differences of two groups means that they can never be equal because one will always be expected to do things that play to the other's strengths.

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Khagan; Because I like arguement more than you do.

Quote:
This allows them to be at least as capable as their male counterparts.

I am not saying that the sexes are identical, or even that they should be represented by the same stats. I am simply saying that, as heroes, both males and females are treated as being equally extraordinary.

As an aside: I only posted before because, during my morning browsing of the threads, I noticed that you seemed to ignore the point made during your last example and instead interpreted it as a childish taunt. I was simply pointing out that the point made was one valid for consideration. If not to be agreed with, at least noticed.

However, after your reply (and please do not take this as an attack, it is an emotionally neutral observation), I noticed that that title you chose for this thread might have more meaning than you originally intended. Impartially, and as my last words before I depart this topic forever, I merely warn that you gave the impression of having actively searched my post for something to contest and made assumptions on my part for me.

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