http://p198.ezboard.com/fgameschat19968frm10.showMessageRange?topicID=1071.topic&start=1&stop=20
It's an interesting thread, especially if Collins is mining for information and/or interest in the topic. Plus it'd be good to have some more voices here involved in the talk.
Yes and no. They're created by the yugoloths, but they're not a part of the actual yugoloth hierarchy. Wether it'd be appropriate to give them yugoloth traits or the yugoloth subtype or not is up for debate. I'd say yes, but make it clear that they're not "true" yugoloths.
It can be explained as Upper Krust not knowing what the heck he's talking about in that thread. He doesn't seem to have a clue about any of the material from 2e or 3e, and what he isn't making up on the spot is largely derived from some post-TSR novels by Gary Gygax that aren't relevant to the topic.
It can be explained as Upper Krust not knowing what the heck he's talking about in that thread. He doesn't seem to have a clue about any of the material from 2e or 3e, and what he isn't making up on the spot is largely derived from some post-TSR novels by Gary Gygax that aren't relevant to the topic.
It can be explained as Upper Krust not knowing what the heck he's talking about in that thread. He doesn't seem to have a clue about any of the material from 2e or 3e, and what he isn't making up on the spot is largely derived from some post-TSR novels by Gary Gygax that aren't relevant to the topic.
Well, if the entire canonical nature of the yugoloths were up for discussion...
I would definitely use "Faces of Evil" as my baseline, but I would make a few changes. Later 2e Planescape material increasingly painted tanar'ri and baatezu as essentially dupes or saps of the yugoloth race. While I don't want to see yugoloths be "the kobolds of the planes" (as 3e often seems to portray them -- non-powerful, not very interesting fodder, in other words), I think it lessens the tanar'ri and baatezu to paint them only as cosmic pawns.
Personally, I see yugoloths as only one of three major players in the Blood War -- essentially neither more nor less dominant than either of the others. They might actually be the oldest (if there is actually any truth to their histories), the most manipulative and the most subtle of the fiends, but the Blood War is not solely their plaything, as much as they might like it to be so. If we follow this theory, the yugoloths became mercenaries and scheming betrayers by circumstance and necessity, not by desire. They have enough power to keep either side from conclusively winning the Blood War, but not enough to claim the prize for themselves.
If the tanar'ri won the Blood War, who'd be next on the chopping block? The loths. Same deal if the baatezu were to win. It is in the best interest of the loths to keep the tanar'ri and baatezu at each other's throats.
I think that 2e Planescape glorified yugoloths a tiny bit too much -- as Byzantine and pitiless as they are, even they have powerful enemies and even their schemes are defeated. Gehreleths and guardinals, in particular, cause problems for them.
Next up: their relationship to deities. I've read both the 2e stuff and the old Gord of Greyhawk series. Personally, I'm actually OK with the idea of one or more yugoloths having some mercenary relationship with a deity. Said loth would never become a priest, proxy, or 'loyal servant' -- they're either simply incapable of belief in and worship of a divine being, or are philosophically opposed to the entire concept of divinity. (Maybe both.) If a deity (or more likely, that deity's servants) approached one or more loths for some kind of mercenary transaction -- "I will give you 1000 souls if you will perform X task for me" -- the loth would regard said deity as merely another potential employer. The key here is that a loth would never become a worshipper or follower, but might consent to do some work on a temporary basis.
Lastly... their emotionlessness. I like the idea of yugoloths as cold, calculating, and merciless. I think Faces of Evil goes too far as painting them (especially at the higher caste levels) as being almost robotic (or Vulcan-like, or modron-like) in their total lack of emotion or passion. Characters who are totally without emotion are boring. The Marauder is much more interesting as a character if her occasional rages are real, not feigned. Even if a total modron-like state of being is a philosophical goal of the race, loths make more interesting villains if they fall short of this goal.
In fact only the yugoloth leaders (baernaloths, oinoloths) or other really powerful yugoloth are able to somewhat manipulate tanar'ri and baatezu, and they do. As long as i known beings such as Antraxus (an oinoloth) are really powerful and barneyloths are more powerful than oinoloths.
Interesting indeed.
But nobody has explained yet if guardian daemons are in fact yugoloths.
The relation between the 4 horsemen as yugoloths and Incabulos and Nerull seems somewhat difficult, forced and maybe broken for me.
As long as i understand Incabulos and Nerull are now gods, can you explain that?
Another thing is that all Oinoloths i remember his names related to disease such as Antraxus. (note that Antraxus in latin means Anthrax or something very similar as long as i known about latin, the same of the other Oinoloths i remember.)[i]