Influence of Pain

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Iavas's picture
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Influence of Pain

We all know that any sod addlecoved (or simply stupid) enough to be discussing the Lady's matters in Sigil will get himself mazed, flayed, or worse (see Rowan Darkwood as an example of the latter). However Sigil is just one spot, albeit a very important hublike one, on the Great Ring. Belief and knowledge hold just as much water on a farmstead in Bytopia as they do in the Hall of Speakers. So how does the allpowerful Lady stop berks from leaving her little ring and talking trash about her outside of her influence? I have a few ideas lurking in the old bonebox, and I'd like to hear both opinions on those (listed below) and especially new ideas that you come up with.

1) She doesn't. You can blabber on about her all you want, but she just seems to be immune to the changing beliefs of those outside her cage.
2) She has agents do her dirty work. Much like the dabus are her janitors, there is an enigmatic and poorly known race of assassins that targets only those who flap their bonebox too much on the wrong topic, and they are never seen in Sigil (not that they're seen too often anywhere else, but their work is).
3) Her influence is greater than people think, particularly when it comes to portals. Even if she doesn't flay you outside of Sigil, she can at least make you appear there after you walk through that next doorway.
4) Everyone is too paranoid to talk or listen to fluff about her Serenity, and only the vilest most powerful fiends dare plot against her, knowing that she cannot stop them outside of her domain.
5) The spiders... AAAAAHHHH! The spiders! *Pop..fizzle..hiss....*

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Influence of Pain

It's an interesting question. Can you worship the Lady while safely outside of Sigil? Could there be a cult that worships the Lady but never steps foot in the city? Is Sigil's design somehow insulated from belief?

One thing we know--belief does not tend to extend very far from the believer. Signers excluded, it's very hard to do something to a plane by gathering a bunch of believers on another plane and thinking about it really hard. You need to be there, in the thick of it, to make things happen. Otherwise, you're probably going to need a hell of a lot of people.

If you're going to modify the Lady of Pain from outside of Sigil with belief, you're going to need a hell of a lot of believers--because they're going to have to overcome the combined beliefs of the dabus and all those inside Sigil itself (who obviously believe the Lady of Pain isn't someone to worship). And since they're actually there, it's quite feasible that you won't be able to pull it off.

My general feeling on the matter is that she doesn't need to bother with people outside of Sigil, because no one would ever be able to gather enough believers together to have any effect on her. They'd have to overcome the dabus (which may explain why she's so fierce about keeping them loyal).

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Influence of Pain

* Spoiler for Harbinger House *

From what I remember of Harbinger House, there's no overt sign of The Lady's wrath outside the Cage for talking about or even worshipping her - although most folks hold a healthy fear of Her Serenity even when safely out of Sigil. I suppose the reason for this is two-fold: First, the belief that as the crossroads of the multiverse everyone passes through Sigil sooner or later (and then you'll be in trouble, berk!) Second, many people believe that she can and will get you in the end somehow. There was a consensus among our party for example that during the Harbinger House adventure, The Lady.... merely waited until all those foolish berks who might have wanted to worship her finally started doing so, then massacred them all at once. Things happen (coincidence or not) and somehow The Lady was responsible, so says the chant. That's a lot of ambient belief in The Lady's power from everywhere on the great ring. Part of that is the ambiguous nature of her powers too - it all adds to her aura of mystery.

On a related note, didn't I hear somewhere that when The Lady put Aoskar in the dead book, didn't all his priests and worshippers [apart from that famous one, you know who I mean] 'buy the farm' aswell, even outside Sigil? Not sure whether that was just a line someone told us in game or not.

Much like the Factol's Manifesto is 'banned in Sigil' but available elsewhere however, there's probably all sorts of speculation, scholarly texts, gossipy drivel, and legends (like say... a book called Pages fo Pain) discussing The Lady outside her domain. I can see it being the sort of conversation people have in taverns at 3am in the morning. So I don't think there's an instant "splat your dead" response out in the Planes at large.

420
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Influence of Pain

'Armoury99' wrote:
On a related note, didn't I hear somewhere that when The Lady put Aoskar in the dead book, didn't all his priests and worshippers [apart from that famous one, you know who I mean] 'buy the farm' aswell, even outside Sigil? Not sure whether that was just a line someone told us in game or not.
I've heard this before, still trying to locate the source.

However, some official Planescape sources definitely say that many dabus were Aoskar worshipers and that his worshipers simply stopped worshiping him after his destruction.

The difference is that Fell became a full fledged priest of Aoskar and that was unacceptable to Her Serenity. And at least one other priest survived. Aola from Torment.

-420

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Influence of Pain

'The Great Hippo' wrote:
It's an interesting question. Can you worship the Lady while safely outside of Sigil? Could there be a cult that worships the Lady but never steps foot in the city?

That's just too good of an idea to not run with.

The thought of a small community of devoted, mildly masochistic, mute Lady of Pain worshipers living in some remote corner of the planes. They all live outside in a carefully planned out blade-ringed clearing designed so as to have no bound spaces. They have removed their tongues to emulate Her silence, and bound blades to their frames to live Her suffering. Rumors say that one of their most devouted leaders can even cast a spell or two of devotion. . .

I'm not very good with expanding on ideas in writing, but someone needs to turn that into a plot hook or something. I know my PCs would immediately abandon any task that required their entering the grove of blades.

[Edit] 100 posts. Woo.

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Influence of Pain

'Hymneth' wrote:
The thought of a small community of devoted, mildly masochistic, mute Lady of Pain worshipers living in some remote corner of the planes. They all live outside in a carefully planned out blade-ringed clearing designed so as to have no bound spaces. They have removed their tongues to emulate Her silence, and bound blades to their frames to live Her suffering. Rumors say that one of their most devouted leaders can even cast a spell or two of devotion. . .

Ohoho! Kind of the Lady of Pain fanclub, the most terrifying organization in all of Sigil. Except with a higher life-expectancy!

I like the idea a lot, although I don't immediately see where you could go with it (beyond them terrifying the bejeezus out of most people).

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Influence of Pain

Well, strange people might have strange knowledge. The Lady of Pain is the ultimate ruler of Sigil, she knows *everything* that goes on there, and as the saying goes, everyone passes through Sigil sooner or later...

Perhaps these slightly crazed worshippers have just a glimmer of her ethereal and unimaginable knowledge, or perhaps someone *things* they do? Or even without a connection to the Lady of Pain, they might be compulsive record keepers, writing down a true history of Sigil for the length of their existence, going back however many eons... the Lady has been around for ages, whose to say her devotees haven't been too?

As a side note, the one notable power the Lady has that extends beyond Sigil is that of portals. If the Lady controls all the portals in Sigil, where they enter and exit, if someone annoys her, she can just arrange for a portal to scoop him up, deposit the berk in Sigil, and *then* flay him.

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Influence of Pain

I coulda sworn that it was punishable by mazing or flaying if any gods were even worshipped in the cage. Is this true or is it just something I pieced together from other fragments of knowledge in my mind?

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Influence of Pain

Can't be. There's a high priest of Hades building a temple to him on the site of the Shattered Temple. Garanis I think his name is.

Powers can't enter the Cage and no one can worship the Lady. That's as far as the prohibitions go, I'm pretty sure.

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Influence of Pain

'420' wrote:
'Armoury99' wrote:
On a related note, didn't I hear somewhere that when The Lady put Aoskar in the dead book, didn't all his priests and worshippers [apart from that famous one, you know who I mean] 'buy the farm' aswell, even outside Sigil? Not sure whether that was just a line someone told us in game or not.
I've heard this before, still trying to locate the source.

I'm pretty certain that that's a bunch of screed spread by a certain well-known 'loth.

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Influence of Pain

Armoury 99 wrote:

Quote:
On a related note, didn't I hear somewhere that when The Lady put Aoskar in the dead book, didn't all his priests and worshippers [apart from that famous one, you know who I mean] 'buy the farm' aswell, even outside Sigil? Not sure whether that was just a line someone told us in game or not.

I think that two things would happen:
One, by starting Lady´s cult outside of Sigil, sort of link with Lady would be established and through that link Lady would be able to influence the cult (to get rid of it that is), how big cult has to be to Lady take notice that is question.
So Planescape fans beware: dont worship Lady.

Two, if powerful person is devoted to Lady maybe he would be contacted by Lady´s agents who would warn that person to stop worshiping lady or even give him job offer (like in Blood wars novels), but to become Lady´s agent such person would have to be rare and special indeed.

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Influence of Pain

'Armoury99' wrote:
On a related note, didn't I hear somewhere that when The Lady put Aoskar in the dead book, didn't all his priests and worshippers [apart from that famous one, you know who I mean] 'buy the farm' aswell, even outside Sigil? Not sure whether that was just a line someone told us in game or not.

That's from an early draft of chapter 7 of the PSCS. It wasn't mentioned anywhere else.

There's no evidence the Lady of Pain can directly influence anything outside of Sigil, but if she has assassins, I'd nominate the dizantar from Spelljammer.

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Influence of Pain

Mechanically, there is nothing to suggest that the Lady of Pain cannot influence anything outside of Sigil. In the same vein, there is nothing to let the players think She cannot.

Just because the Arcane feel safer outside the cage, does not mean they are. I imagine that they probably attribute any bad luck to Her Serenity's influence. Whether that feeling is real or imagined is another story...

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If the Lady controls all the portals in Sigil, where they enter and exit, if someone annoys her, she can just arrange for a portal to scoop him up, deposit the berk in Sigil, and *then* flay him.

Or, potentially worse, she can just close Sigil's portals to the poor sod's use ... the inability to access Sigil's doors can make a berk's like a whole lot more difficult.

It really depends on how much someone upset the Lady.

That said, I don't believe her reach extends beyond Sigil, aside from influencing the portals and creating mazes. The Cage is just that, a cage, and part of its function seems to be keeping the Lady where she is. I can tell you that, considering the way she treats other gods, if she were to extend herself beyond the city it would stir up a whole hornet's nest of trouble. (I imagine more than one Power would love to set a reckoning for what her Serenity did to Aoskar ... it doesn't matter if they liked him, you just can't let others get away with killing gods as a matter of principal)

But, if she wanted, she could certainly make her displeasure known by redirecting a few traveling Demon's to the poor sod's home town, his location, or close down some of the City's most popular gates until some Blood pieces together who she's upset at and finishes the bugger off for her. (or drags him back to Sigil so she can do it)

As to the cult of Lady whorshippers ... while such a cult might exist, there is no way they should gain power from their whorship of the Lady ... unless, some angry Demon prince decided to step in and play the part, letting them think they were gaining power and thereby creating the rumor that whorship of the Lady outside of the Cage was a tollerable and profitable venture.

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Influence of Pain

'Jack of tears' wrote:
As to the cult of Lady whorshippers ... while such a cult might exist, there is no way they should gain power from their whorship of the Lady ... unless, some angry Demon prince decided to step in and play the part, letting them think they were gaining power and thereby creating the rumor that whorship of the Lady outside of the Cage was a tollerable and profitable venture.

That's what I was going for. Something is granting them some measure of divine power. Not The Lady, but something. And of course there will be someone interested in finding out just what is behind it and what its purpose is. I agree that even if She was hypothetically capable of granting spells, She never would.

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Influence of Pain

Can't you get spells from worshipping abstract concepts (or nonexistant powers, for that matter)? Take the Athar, for example, or the True Death worshippers on Faerun. It makes for a nice plot hook: barmy priest of the Lady of Pain actually begins to get spells, and everybody and their grandmother wants to find out from where without actually 'finding out'. Could it, with enough recruits, create a new deity, a distorted mirror of her Serenity through the eyes of a confused cult?

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Influence of Pain

The reason you worship something is either the might of that thing, or its benevolent philosophy. And since her religion kind of does not flourish in Sigil itself, she Lady has neither. Also, just immagine *you* had to worship her - no idea how to get started, right?
Its by far easier to pray to your local trusty fiend. *If* you want to have berks worshipping some Lady of Pain thingy, why don't you just take a powerful demon or career-devil who tricks these fools into worshipping him in disguise of her? After all the fiends want to take the Cage. Maybe it works the indirect way... Smiling

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Influence of Pain

'Calmar' wrote:
The reason you worship something is either the might of that thing, or its benevolent philosophy. And since her religion kind of does not flourish in Sigil itself, she Lady has neither. Also, just immagine *you* had to worship her - no idea how to get started, right? Its by far easier to pray to your local trusty fiend. *If* you want to have berks worshipping some Lady of Pain thingy, why don't you just take a powerful demon or career-devil who tricks these fools into worshipping him in disguise of her? After all the fiends want to take the Cage. Maybe it works the indirect way... Smiling

Note the reinforced 'barmy' aspect of my suggested worshippers.

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Influence of Pain

'Iavas' wrote:
Note the reinforced 'barmy' aspect of my suggested worshippers.
Yes, maybe. But there is still no 'philosophy' behind the LOP that is really worshipable in my eyes. Eye-wink

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If the lady can control all portals and not just the ones to sigil. If an army of demons invaded a town, by the ladys decree, then she'd control fate.

Also surely the continued worship of Aoskar, whilst he's dead, is continued then surely that'd tick her serenity off enough to maze or flay a sod?

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Influence of Pain

I actually included worshipers of the Lady of Pain as a major part of my version of Plague-Mort, based on a throwaway line in the Planescape Campaign Setting box that claimed some believed she had once ruled the city as arch-lictor.

Quote:
It's quite a testament to the power and variety of the Abyss that this city exists at all, but the planes hunger for the goods and services the Thousand and One Closets can offer, while the Abyss hungers for the stuff of the planes. Plaguemort is a hideous moil of razorvine, refuse, and disease. Those citizens who can't afford frequent curative magics are infested with parasites and bacteria, and rat-anthropy runs rampant; they say Squerrik himself walks the streets. An arch-lictor rules the city in the name of the demon princes, while in the midst of their anguish the people take solace in the cold Lady of Pain.

Unthinkable in Sigil, the cult of the Lady in Plaguemort is old and well established; her razor-sharp image appears in nearly every household shrine, and the architecture sports the same placatory blades that are seen everywhere in the Cage. Plaguemorters pray to the Lady of Pain as the bright beacon that alone is capable of delivering them from the squallor of their home in a way that mere drugs cannot. Legend says that she was once Arch-Lictor of Plaguemort herself and alone of the city's rulers failed to deliver it to the tanar'ri lords, instead causing it to slide all the way to its present position above the infinite Spire, where she rules it still. The people of Plaguemort pray that she will return to the crux between the Abyss and the Land, and do the same for their incarnation of the city.

In the caves Hinterward of town is a portal leading to Sigil. Located in within a deep pit, the key is devotion to the Lady of Pain - the bottom of the pit is littered with the bones of the faithless. The portal leads directly to one of the Lady's mazes, for, of course, Her Serenity does not tolerate worshippers. The idea of being transfigured, immortalized within the eternal moment of a Maze sounds wondrous to the typical Plaguemorter, however.

The Illuminated cult, with its talk of the vivid agony of revelation, shows token respect for the Lady of Pain, but it is far too ambitious to actually worship her.

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