Infinite Digression

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Infinite Digression

It appears that my best (or worst, depending on whom you ask) ideas come to me around the time of exams... probably because my mind is trying to think of something, anything, that would prevent it from committing seppuku with ol' Willy's metaphorical razor out of sheer boredom. Anyway, this particular thread, artistically entitled "Infinite Digression" as both a pun and an apt description of its likely fate, is one of the outcomes of this particular midterm's more productive deviations.

Here I hope to collect the Planescape related questions (and proposed answers) that people always wonder about but are too shy to ask... and rightly so, since those questions are patently useless for any but the oddest games. So, instead of filling up precious forum space with multiple absurd posts, I propose we gather them all in one place. Here, you can inquire about such pressing issues as, for example, what exactly the timber-starved Sigilians use for toilet paper.

There are a few rules that I would propose:
1) No trite questions (eg. What are The Lady's stats?)
2) No silly but inane questions (eg. Why did the vrock cross the road?)
3) No overly serious questions (if it is covered in canon or might actually be useful to know in a game, it probably deserves its own topic).

Oh, and since this thread will (hopefully) have multiple questions going at once, quote the question that you are answering. With that, let's see if this thread takes off or plummets like a bag of earth mephits.

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Infinite Digression

To start us off, here is the first question:

How prude are the planes? If we logically look at the everyday lives of planars (rather than subconsciously applying western standards), how would they react if a human strolled through Sigil wearing nothing but a smile? What if it was a male Bariaur (or some other non-humanoid) instead? Are there nudist resorts on the outer planes or is nudity just another form of dress that people can choose to adopt? Certainly the fine folks in Ysgard would have the traditional steam baths, but what about the rest of the planes and our favorite torus shaped hub?

Discuss...

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To expand on the above, are there anti-nudity laws of any kind in Sigil? (Not to mention that the naughty bits of some species would be nigh-unrecognizable to most humanoids.)

Is prostitution legal in Sigil? If legal, how is it regulated?

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'Iavas' wrote:
what exactly the timber-starved Sigilians use for toilet paper.

I propose a variation on the ancient Roman "sponge-on-a-stick." No telling where Sigilians would get sponges from, but I'm sure they'd figure out something. The 'stick' part wouldn't necessarily have to be made from wood, I suppose.

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'Zimrazim' wrote:
Is prostitution legal in Sigil? If legal, how is it regulated?

With my post I was rather inquiring about the non-sexual sort of nudity, so I'll answer yours as a separate question.

According to PS:T, at least, prostitution is rampant in the poor sections of Sigil. In fact, judging from that game, it is one of the most popular career paths next to assaulting passerbys and walking around aimlessly while flinching from amnesiac immortals. I'm guessing that there's no real regulation, as it mostly occurs in the cess pit that is the Hive. It's a risky venture, no doubt, with the occasional Jack the Ripper wannabe thinning the ranks, but I'm guessing that more than a few of the less affluent Sensates make a bit of extra jink in that way rather than hauling bodies to the Mortuary.

Also, back to my question, the outfits on some of the upper class citizens in PS:T certainly support the idea of a more liberal view of undress among some of the humanoid populace, at least as far as females are concerned. Then again, I'm pretty sure that the artist was male. Puzzled

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Infinite Digression

Quote:
How prude are the planes? If we logically look at the everyday lives of planars (rather than subconsciously applying western standards), how would they react if a human strolled through Sigil wearing nothing but a smile? What if it was a male Bariaur (or some other non-humanoid) instead? Are there nudist resorts on the outer planes or is nudity just another form of dress that people can choose to adopt? Certainly the fine folks in Ysgard would have the traditional steam baths, but what about the rest of the planes and our favorite torus shaped hub?

I doubt that the authorities could regulate it, and if they did, theye'd offend someone. (If a succubus walked through a street in the Lady's Ward, what's the Harmonium grunt going to do? He certainly won't shout: "Hey! Put some clothes on, public nudity is illegal!" That won't bother a fiend in the least. He's going to stare, like everyone else.)

Individual cultural and social pressures would probably influence people, regardless of the law, and those would vary.

Common sense is annother factor. I'd personally wear something heavy and grew or brown with a scarf to cover my mouth. The possibility of acid rain would also play a role in my decision. Unless you can afford a bath every day to wash off the grime (or you don't care), or are resistant to acid, clothes are smart, if not strictly speaking required.

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I'd imagine that public decency laws in Sigil are fairly lax, considering Sigil's famous 'been there, done that' attitude.

You have people popping out of holes in the universe, fiends, celestials, fiends and celestials, any number of races that technically are trying to genocide someone down the street, and a large number of creatures that are also people. There are places in Sigil that serve blood to vampires, and I would imagine that there is a brain-trade for the illithids. You think people will get upset if there is a bit too much skin showing? No. Does that mean people walk around naked? Are you crazy? Have you SEEN the people out there?

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Infinite Digression

Here's one I've always wondered. Assuming that marriage is a common sort of ritual throughout most cultures, what are Sigil's laws concerning it? At what age is marriage acceptible? Is it different for different species? Who can marry who? Who can marry what? Is there anything to prevent a Chaotic priest from legally marrying a Xaositect to a wheelbarrow? If not, does the wheelbarrow get tax benefits?

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'Hymneth' wrote:
Here's one I've always wondered. Assuming that marriage is a common sort of ritual throughout most cultures, what are Sigil's laws concerning it? At what age is marriage acceptible? Is it different for different species? Who can marry who? Who can marry what? Is there anything to prevent a Chaotic priest from legally marrying a Xaositect to a wheelbarrow? If not, does the wheelbarrow get tax benefits?

It might simply treat a marriage (and not all would be registered with the Sigil authorities -- the state doesn't get very involved in the institution of marriage in every culture) as a legal contract between two or more parties. To find out how a particular marriage works, you'd look at the terms stated in the contract. Different species, tribes, religious traditions, etc., would have very different expectations of marriage. In order to marry, the beings involved would have to prove to a Guvner that they are competent to enter into a contract (i.e., a demonstrably sentient wheelbarrow could marry, a normal wheelbarrow could not).

For convenience, a number of very common types of contracts may be found around the appropriate civil offices (i.e., a whole lot of dwarves who follow the 'standard' pantheon approach marriage in a particular way, etc.).

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Infinite Digression

First, regarding the nudity issue - Sigil's environment is admittedly unsuited for direct contact with anything pink and squishy that's not also covered in a generous coating of Mirror Will's patented SPF (Sigil Protection Factor) 100 Magic Lotion. It might even be a way for the elite to prove their wealth (being able to afford protective potions) or natural power (being able to resist the elements). I can see the likes of Shemeshka, Zadara, and Estavan walking around in nothing but jewelry to show off to the lesser creatures around them.
I must, however, disagree with your apparent concerns about being targeted by knights of the post. First of all, even if you were somehow carrying any substantial amount of jink, nobody would want to steal it after where its most probably been. Second of all, a savvy knight would likely go for the clueless looking sod fumbling in his pocket pocked robe than the self-assured fellow strolling naked through Sigil's elements.
EDIT: In response to weishan's comment - I would guess that a populace as diverse and experienced as Sigil's would not even stare (unless you count the clueless), much less prohibit it. Any reason you think otherwise?
Keep in mind, however, that my question was not only about Sigil. Outside the City of Doors, I imagine the habit to be more common, especially in the part of the ring between Elysium and Limbo. The Beastlands is obvious, Arborea favours freedoms of all sorts, and Ysgard is the home of the Scandinavians. 'nuff said. The Beastlands might even enforce it.

'Hymneth' wrote:
Here's one I've always wondered. Assuming that marriage is a common sort of ritual throughout most cultures, what are Sigil's laws concerning it? At what age is marriage acceptible? Is it different for different species? Who can marry who? Who can marry what? Is there anything to prevent a Chaotic priest from legally marrying a Xaositect to a wheelbarrow? If not, does the wheelbarrow get tax benefits?

I imagine that marriage is handled according to each couple(or more)'s belief system. Whether that belief is religious or secular, the proper ceremony can be arranged with enough jink. As for that Xaositect... he will probably balk at the idea of a formal contract binding him and his beloved wheelbarrow into lawful matrimony.
Socially (if not legally) acceptible age probably depends on the species. An elf is still a child by the time a human is ready for grandchildren. While the Guvners might try to keep a record of marriage contracts as best they can, the constant travel into and out of the city makes that a tricky proposition at best. They might even have laws for the proper, legal way to conduct an official marriage ceremony, but I doubt even the Hardheads would try to enforce it. As for taxes... I'm sure that the Takers will be just as happy to take the full amount of jink from each of a couple trying to raise ten kids as they would from a bachelor that lives at the gambling hall.

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Infinite Digression

I've seen Shemeska wander around in nothing but jewelry. It's not a pretty picture - and that bead thing? Totally not covering anything.

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'Clueless' wrote:
I've seen Shemeska wander around in nothing but jewelry. It's not a pretty picture - and that bead thing? Totally not covering anything.

So.. that's one bit of evidence in support of the acceptance of nudity on the planes. Is that official Planewalker canon, coming from you? Sticking out tongue Although, I'm guessing you won't recommend including that particular sprite in the upcoming Planescape Online. :mrgreen: I assume that the game will be sidestepping this issue altogether, as per usual.

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Who implied that being nude would make you a target for cross traders?

I'm just curious because I remember discussing with Trias how it might be safer for my amnesiac character to wake up nude in the Hive than clothed, since if he was nude they'd know he didn't have anything worth stealing. For some reason I still don't understand Trias disagreed.

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Naw Eye-wink My only 'official' canon is the continuing hint that she and Akin are doing it nightly. Eye-wink
(Aka - I'm heckling, don't mind me.)

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'Dire Lemon' wrote:
Who implied that being nude would make you a target for cross traders?
I assumed that's what BERK meant when he said
'BERK' wrote:
Does that mean people walk around naked? Are you crazy? Have you SEEN the people out there?

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A lot of non-humanoids walk around Sigil's street naked. Yeah I know a naked fire elemental, isn't the same thing as a naked human.

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'Iavas' wrote:
what exactly the timber-starved Sigilians use for toilet paper. .

My BoG'r players already know what Sigilans use for firewood ...

... though as a slight digression, I don't buy into the "wood is rare" theory as much as some do. Sure, stone buildings last longer, blocks and stones can be re-used, and exposed wood would rot quickly in a humid environment like Sigil, but how hard is it to get a dozen berks in a line, the first one with a key, and pick up a log. If wood was really rare, that'd be big jink 'till the place was glutted with wood, then the market would stabilize.

Oops, forgot to ask a question ... (ahem) ...

Is Sigil like medieval cities where they just poured the chamberpot out the window? Has it ever become an issue in somebody's game, while the PCs were walking down the street? Dusties pick up the dead bodies, but who cleans the sh!t off the street, the Dabus? Do they even ever take a crap? Has anybody seen 'em eat? If not, how do they feel about having to constantly mop up the mortals' poop? Or, do they just let it all wash into Undersigil?

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'Azure' wrote:

Is Sigil like medieval cities where they just poured the chamberpot out the window? Has it ever become an issue in somebody's game, while the PCs were walking down the street? Dusties pick up the dead bodies, but who cleans the sh!t off the street, the Dabus? Do they even ever take a crap? Has anybody seen 'em eat? If not, how do they feel about having to constantly mop up the mortals' poop? Or, do they just let it all wash into Undersigil?

The Hive has a ton of portals to the plane of Ooze, where they're a nasty hazard. Don't step in the puddles.

There might be a system of portals (especially in rich areas) to handle some of the waste. Or a city-wide sewage system that has portals at the lowest locations (probably straight into Ooze or various icky planes).

I now have a mental image of Will, a la one of the Batman movies: ~You flush it. I flaunt it. Laughing out loud

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New question:

What does the back of The Lady of Pain's head look like? I mean, we've all seen her from the front, but the blades kind of get in the way of ever seeing anything behind the face. Does she have hair? A hood? Little chittering things from the Dungeon Dimensions?

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'Iavas' wrote:
What does the back of The Lady of Pain's head look like? I mean, we've all seen her from the front, but the blades kind of get in the way of ever seeing anything behind the face. Does she have hair? A hood? Little chittering things from the Dungeon Dimensions?
Something that will cast shadow in your direction. Sticking out tongue

Nah, I always figured it was more blades and that they sort of took the place of hair.

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The way I've always seen Sigil is that it doesn't really have laws per say. Beyond don't worship the lady or go into long winded conversations about her bra size.

Seeing as people don't really control the city per say. I mean the hard heads act as police, but only within the confines of their factions doctrine. They are more like mercenaries who see it is their right to arrest those they consider trouble makers. But beyond their grasp their really isn't much you'd classify as law. So I would see anything is perfectly legal in sigil provided you don't end up pissing off the wrong sort of people.

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Quote:
Seeing as people don't really control the city per say. I mean the hard heads act as police, but only within the confines of their factions doctrine. They are more like mercenaries who see it is their right to arrest those they consider trouble makers. But beyond their grasp their really isn't much you'd classify as law. So I would see anything is perfectly legal in sigil provided you don't end up pissing off the wrong sort of people.

That's my approach too, but I like keep the Hardheads, Mercykillers and Sons of Mercy/Sodkillers as powerful groups.

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'Iavas' wrote:
What does the back of The Lady of Pain's head look like? I mean, we've all seen her from the front, but the blades kind of get in the way of ever seeing anything behind the face. Does she have hair? A hood? Little chittering things from the Dungeon Dimensions?

The Lady only has a front.

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'Bob the Efreet' wrote:
The Lady only has a front.

That made my day.

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'Bob the Efreet' wrote:
'Iavas' wrote:
What does the back of The Lady of Pain's head look like? I mean, we've all seen her from the front, but the blades kind of get in the way of ever seeing anything behind the face. Does she have hair? A hood? Little chittering things from the Dungeon Dimensions?

The Lady only has a front.


Sir Mixalot disagrees.

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Even if she did, who'd dare tell her?

Now you got me looking through my books. Her outfit does have a back, her face protruding from a high, double collar surrounded in blades, so from the back you'd only see the outfit.

If she has a full head under that ... well, are we even sure she has a real body? I've heard a bit of scree which says she's really a suit run by a bunch of imps gone awol - all sitting on each other's shoulders and running the thing like a puppe .... ::vanishes in a blaze of blades and bite sized red chunks::

Edit: Though I can see it now ... an angry Bard having fun with some clueless .. "Hey berk, I wrote this song for that fair lady over there, but I just don't have the voice to sing it ... could you do me the honors? A bit of jink in it for ya ... yeah, thanks, song's called 'Lady Got Back' ... I'll be right here waitin' ta see how she likes it."

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'Dunamin' wrote:
'Bob the Efreet' wrote:
The Lady only has a front.
Sir Mixalot disagrees.

Laughing out loud

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'Jack of tears' wrote:
Now you got me looking through my books. Her outfit does have a back, her face protruding from a high, double collar surrounded in blades, so from the back you'd only see the outfit.

That sounds suspiciously like a certain race from Mechanus, doesn't it?

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How do Bladelings... yaknow?

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Oh sure, Bladelings just pop out of the ground like Dwarves! Sticking out tongue

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Presumably, they don't. Bladelings don't reproduce naturally, new bladelings simply crawl forth from the blood forest fully formed (at least, this is the interpretation Rip and I always went by, there isn't anything cannonical on bladeling ecology, and in my interpretation existing material strongly implies bladelings are naturally immortal and don't have the age categories presented in PS3E).

I personnally once specualted the Bladelings are derived from sentient constructs, specifically the Hellforged Devils known as Obsidian devils (see dragon #306) and thus their 'biology' is rudimentary at best.

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How do bariaur and centaurs and the like sleep?

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'Iavas' wrote:
How do bariaur and centaurs and the like sleep?
I presume they sleep standing up, like horses. Thier legs tend to fall asleep when they lie down. I bet they have strong humanoid torsos to be able to, I suppose.

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I always sort of tinkered with designing furniture and buildings to ideally suit sentient quadrupeds and other unusually suited critters in the game.

Minor things like describing chairs in an inn having a variety of sizes and room for a tail, you know?

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Is the lighting in Sigil enough to produce vitamin D? it's not really sunlight, right?

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There might not be a hot burning ball of gas in the sky, but technically, the light comes from the same place (i.e. the Plane of Radiance), so the effects should be the same. Now, whether or not Sigilians get enough vitamin production from it is a different matter. That all depends on how bad the smog is.

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Can person convince enough people to worship him or her and become a god?

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Wexquif Wrote:

Quote:
Can person convince enough people to worship him or her and become a god?

Why not?

In fact in 1ed Legends and Lore book were "oficial" rules how to become god:
1. You must have at least level 20+
2. You must have body of at least 200 worshipers.
3. You must have to be fanatical examplar of your aligment, no shifts or anything.
4. You cant be rised or resurected.
5. (optional) You have to petition for a place in specific pantheon and get mentor for your new job.

Sound simple. No! Smiling

EDIT: I forgot one more condition so I add that one:

6. You must have charisma of 18+ and at least one other atribute of 19+

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Well other than 3 and 4 that seems incrediblely easy. I could make a PC that becomes a god. Laughing out loud

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There are several examples of mortals becoming gods. Look at the pantheon of the celestial beuraucracy, for example. There is a god of beuaucratic testing who was a mortal who tested very well for a civil position, but was denied due to either corruption, and/or his hideous looks. When he leapt into the sea in despair, he was saved by a turtle and carried to shore. The higher official who denied him repented, and he eventually was deified. Not a powerful position in the celestial beuraucracy, not like being in charge of judgeing petitioners, nor as fun as being in charge of thunder, but every student who has to take a test gives him a little power. See, that's how they hook ya, bubbers. You give 'em a little hope, and they suck up yer soul. You listen to a story that's nine parts screed, and you keep some pencil-pusher immortal.

- Athar street-crier, Horrus Torus.

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Sigil has a large variety of creatures wanding its streets and alleys. These range from superintelligent, to average, to not-the-sharpest-bulb-in-the-drawer. And yet, even the ones slightly on the slow side are treated as much like citizens as everyone else. So, are animals likewise treated like citizens? Could a really clever dog, for example, earn money for delivering people's papers (or slippers) and then spend it on a nice steak for dinner? Could a cow get paid for fertilizing an elf's personal garden and providing milk? For that matter, could humanoids be payed for providing milk? Uhm.. nevermind about that last one. That's going in the wrong direction.

Anyway, what level of intelligence actually gives a creature citizenship status in Sigil?

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I'd say that the ability to grasp the concept of currency would be a start.

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Someone could pass a "Sigil Citizenship Registration Act" and require to sign up or be hunted down by the Harmonium!

And then all the people that don't want to sign up could start an army and go to war with the pro-registration forces!

Ooooh, wait. I'm thinking of something else. Sticking out tongue

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'Iavas' wrote:
To start us off, here is the first question:

How prude are the planes? If we logically look at the everyday lives of planars (rather than subconsciously applying western standards), how would they react if a human strolled through Sigil wearing nothing but a smile? What if it was a male Bariaur (or some other non-humanoid) instead? Are there nudist resorts on the outer planes or is nudity just another form of dress that people can choose to adopt? Certainly the fine folks in Ysgard would have the traditional steam baths, but what about the rest of the planes and our favorite torus shaped hub?

Who knows what the Lady's name was prior to her assent?

Discuss...


IMHO - the possibility of non-prudent behavior is one reason for the endless revision process of editions. Divide and conquer. But what they don't know is that Sigil is real. The torus is a hermeneutical circle.

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Semioughticon, I'm not sure exactly what you're saying, but more importantly, why is there an extra sentence in my quote?

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'Semioughticon' wrote:
But what they don't know is that Sigil is real. The torus is a hermeneutical circle.

Hehe, you mentioned hermeneutics in the context of a roleplaying discussion. Someone has been taking too many post-modernist/literary analysis classes! Eye-wink

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'Archdukechocula' wrote:
'Semioughticon' wrote:
But what they don't know is that Sigil is real. The torus is a hermeneutical circle.

Hehe, you mentioned hermeneutics in the context of a roleplaying discussion. Someone has been taking too many post-modernist/literary analysis classes! Eye-wink

I've read too much Camus! Sticking out tongue

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'Iavas' wrote:
Semioughticon, I'm not sure exactly what you're saying, but more importantly, why is there an extra sentence in my quote?

I'm glad you mentioned this. I was in a hurry to go to class, and when I previewed my post it was gone from where I had intended it to be. Since I was short for time I didn't look for it and just posted. So I admit it is an addition to what was quoted from you post, and I apologize. I'm just a berkzerker.

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'Semioughticon' wrote:
'Archdukechocula' wrote:
'Semioughticon' wrote:
But what they don't know is that Sigil is real. The torus is a hermeneutical circle.

Hehe, you mentioned hermeneutics in the context of a roleplaying discussion. Someone has been taking too many post-modernist/literary analysis classes! Eye-wink

I've read too much Camus! Sticking out tongue

What do you call a dog with a talent for writing essays analyzing the deconstruction of gender?

Hermeneutered.

What do existenstialist epidimeologists study?

The myth of syphilis.

What do you call angry German road workers?

Die constructionists.

Zing

Don't worry, I probably won't be here all night.

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'Semioughticon' wrote:
'Iavas' wrote:
Semioughticon, I'm not sure exactly what you're saying, but more importantly, why is there an extra sentence in my quote?

I'm glad you mentioned this. I was in a hurry to go to class, and when I previewed my post it was gone from where I had intended it to be. Since I was short for time I didn't look for it and just posted. So I admit it is an addition to what was quoted from you post, and I apologize. I'm just a berkzerker.

Oh, I don't mind. I was just sort of hoping... *cough* it was a secret message leading to a veritable treasure hunt for your ultimate meaning. Puzzled

So, for those of us that couldn't stand and subsequently dropped their post-modernist literary classes, what exactly did you mean by your big words, Semioughticon?

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Joined: 2008-04-27
Infinite Digression

What do you call an organized dairy farmer?

Neat Cheese!

I couldn't help it.

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