IMPORTANT DISCUSSION: What drives the Hordlings?

Fair enough. It is just that in some cases the official published canon acquired some slight changes over time, and this was one of those cases. Personally, I was not aware that the larvae appearing in herds anywhere other than the Gray Waste was used extensively in any product. However I am still rather iffy as to them just being 'normal' petitioners.

For myself, the natural appearance of the non-natural petitioner form of larvae was always something that needed to be reconciled. Only in 3.5e do the Baatorian petitioners begin appearing as actual humanoids before transformation, and that was WotC's attempt at replacing the larvae. More on this later...

'joyblood' wrote:

As far as I can see, that's kind of the only way of keeping all the different existing sources correct.

Not always entirely possible, ergo my suggestion. If we can make it work, though, sure.

Ah. And here we get down to my conflict about fiendish petitioners. It appears I have subconsciously accepted some fan-based canon (I'm guessing Shemmy's) as official. I am pretty sure that it has been stated somewhere officially that the Yugoloths, when cleansed of Law/Chaos by the General of Gehenna, discarded all the metaphysical 'bathwater' into the surrounding petitioners. I simply furthered that by suggesting that aside from just giving out 'dirt', the 'loths also took soul from the plane. Being the only fiendish race that is not born from petitioners, this is a logical conclusion. It can be surmised, therefore, that the weakened petitioners became larvae, rather than the hordes of hordlings, nupperibos, and manes.

Also, the particular difference between 'Dis' petitioners and your average Nupperibo (or default LE petitioner) was adequately explained as the Dis petitioners having a final regret for their misdeeds before death. Perhaps this was only in 3.5e, I'm not sure, but it was very fitting nevertheless. I would also mention that the more cardinal planes (Baator, Abyss, and I assumed the Wastes) have intrinsically fiendish petitioners. That is, the petitioners that did not belong to a deity were immediately set on the way of fiendish progression either as Nupperibos (later transformed into Lemures so that they become Baatezu rather than Baatorians), Manes, or Hordlings. The less cardinal planes (Carceri, Gehenna, Pandemonium, Acheron) had petitioners with particular psychological or spiritual traits but that did not undergo a specific change from their mortal forms. What I was trying to reconcile was where the larvae, which can be turned into any of the fiendish races and their kitty cats, actually came from. It is official that the Night Hags make them with their ability, but only through much effort and over a period of time. What about the rest? Why are they so common across all the three of the lowest planes? Basically, it boils down to whether or not the Yugoloth involvement in larvae creation was in any way even hinted at in the official canon. Because if it was, no radical changes to my theory are required. Simply say that they appear on all three planes rather than just the Waste. It could also be that the Baatorian larvae herds, as well as any on the other evil planes, were simply brought there through trade and lost or left to wander. After all, even with fiends not everyone finishes their food or fishes the change out from between the couch pillows.

Note: while transcribing this, I noticed I've been spelling 'hordlings' with an 'e' this entire time and nobody told me. I feel stupid.

"The second race of denizens are the hordlings, the misshapen bastard children of the Gray Waste. Like the mindless armies of lemures and nupperibos on Baator or the endless armies of dretches on the Abyss, the hordlings roam where they will, with little regard for boundaries and civilization.

It's thought that hordlings might actually be petitioners, their forms warped and twisted beyond recognition by the evil of the plane and their own twisted sense of self. Perhaps they refused to let the plane break them or to let go of their hatreds and their angers. That, it's thought, is why they're all individuals - because each had its own hostility, and each nursed it to a different end.

Of course, that would mean millions of berks had the strength to resist the Waste's influence. And that literally uncounted billions of petitioners on the Gray Waste. It's frightening to realize just how many souls have devoted their lives to the pursuit of evil." (Planes of Chaos - Liber Malevolantiae, pp49-50)

There is also, further down, an interesting passage that suggests that Night Hags are really evolved larvae (I believe this was later expanded upon in Dragon Magazine as having to use a larvae during 'reproduction', although don't quote me on that), which does two things. First, it explains their natural ability to turn people into larvae. Second, it leads to an interesting conclusion regarding the Hags' relationship with the 'loth, if indeed the Yugoloth origin of larvae is to be believed.

I meant the average hordeling to the average fiend of another race. I could very well be mistaken, but I never did figure just how tough the little buggers could get without jumping the shark and becoming Lords.

I don't really remember, but somewhere. It could be canon, fan material, or my own internal logic trying to sort it all out.

Again, could be. I always had the exact opposite impression, with humanoid petitioners only appearing in deific realms, Dis, and any gate-towns that might have slipped in. I have the exact same problem, I have a bunch of Planescape information rattling around inside the old brainbox and absolutely no idea where it all came from nor how valid it is. That's why I'm always amazed at ripvanwormer's encyclopedically referenced knowledge.

'joyblood' wrote:

Once more, an idea I really like - but one that I'd use as theory so we don't step on anyone's toes.

And the last one nails it! See, I consider pretty much everything that directly says "this is the way it is" about the planes as theory, even if its in official material. Canon, for me, is just widely accepted theory. When I say 'canon', what I really mean is official 2e material. All the stuff that I've been suggesting is not meant to say "Alright, all of you that wrote fan material that disagreed with this were wrong." Neither I, you, nor anybody else on this board is in any position to do so. Only the original designers of Planescape can say that, and even then, it is possible that their own creation is living out a life of its own now. The only problem, of course, is starting to elaborate on 'just theories'. Having a bunch of contradicting theories is fine, but choosing one to elaborate on almost canonizes it in a way. That's just something we're going to have to deal with. That is precisely why I started this topic - to decide on some foundation for the way the lower planes, and the Waste in particular, function. There is no 2e canon to fall back that doesn't contradict itself at some point. Plus, a lot of fan material expands upon it quite well and, in my opinion, should be included in the fundamental theory of 'The Darkest Gray'. Believe me, the last thing I want to do is push my opinions down other people's throats. All that I was suggesting was merely that, suggestions - something to get the conversation going in that direction. I was not entirely aware that we were building a new 'canon' in this thread, so perhaps all of this should be moved to a different one. Nevertheless, what do you think should be the official (that is to say, for this particular ebook that you're building) fundamental workings of the Gray Waste. Or, am I simply looking too deep? I have a tendency to want to model the last blade of grass when world building.

Canon by popular opinion - so it's worthwhile being careful because it *will* affect the views and opinion of everyone playing the game (look at the influence of Shemmy's game alone)... unfortunately we have no formal pull or sway with WotC at this time, though I know there have been writers in the past (lots of the Piazo guys) who were paying attention. So - call it a Horde Will-esque influence.

I'm not sure how it may tie in, but as far as larvae go, I'm pretty sure the PS2e adventure "In the Abyss" has the Tanar'ri and the Doomguard constructing the massive Ships of Chaos out of Abyss-spawned Larvae. I could be wrong though, as I don't have the booklet with me. I do know the thing was primarily a writhing mass of fused souls built around a few demons, and most of the framework was shaped larvae.

The only place that I know that mentions this is Fiend Codex II, and it is presented as 100% cannon (most things in that book are). The Fiend Codex explanation is that they experienced true regret just after they died. Those who feel true regret just before death become Hellbred.

I'm not amazingly (ie, at all) fond of the idea either.

By the way--there might be some interesting conjecture and darks to be had over the idea that a lot of Aberrations actually came from the Gray Wastes, spawned as a result of hordling unions between other hordlings or even mortals.

Some say that the whole illithid time-travel thing's just a big smokescreen, and the illithid--along with the aboleth, and a few other horrible aberrations--all got their start on the Gray Wastes...

To help support this dark, the Wastes might have a rather unusually high aberration population (and/or aberrations might have an automatic immunity to the Fade).

Zeniel, could you do me a favor and post a similar explanation here to liven that topic up? Thanks.

And I very much appreciate it. It seemed to spark the conversation just like I'd hoped.

Could you please clarify where the Bringer of Doom artifact came from. I am drawing a blank.

The 2e PS Monstrous Compendium I think. The details are copied out on another thread here

I imagine if the hordlings became too much of a problem the Oinoloth would just release a particularly nasty and targeted plague on the first layer to cull their numbers a bit.

Don't check too hard. I'm pretty sure that hordlings haven't been officially converted to 3e, nor are they likely to be now with 4e coming out. I am not sure if they've been detailed/converted in any Dragon article, though.

It would seem awfully odd for them to survive so long in such large numbers on a layer that is, essentially, the very essence of disease.

Maybe the hordelings are too biologiacally diferent to be significantly affected by any kind of disease targeted at 'all hordelings.'

For the 'loth? Because of their diversity? No offence, but that seems a bit far fetched.

Their diversity and proliferation would explain why diseases don't wipe them out entirely, however I still think it would be a handy tactic for wiping out large numbers of Hordlings. Besides even if a disease was able to wipe them all out on the first layer they'd still work their way up from the other layers, or failing that new ones would be spontaneously created from Larvae

This would also help explain why the control of disease is so important to the Loths of the first layer of the wastes.