Imagine that Lady of Pain would be killed...

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Theamus's picture
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Imagine that Lady of Pain would be killed...

Ok, now i need some help with this, it's quite important for me.

Imagine some Abyssal general opening portal to Sigil (this is hardly possible, i know, but try to survive it...=)), now hordes of Tanar'ri flowing to Sigil, killing'n'destroying everything how they're happy that they finally got there. Lady of Pain dies in attempt to stop them, baatezu got information about this all, so they concentrate all their forces to get to the portal, and at the end, they make it to Sigil too, so Blood War goes there...=)

now, i have two questions:

1. about layers sliding to another planes: what does this depend on? if i got e.g. Elysium, and i get a hordes of baatezu / whoever there and get all the native Elysium people killed (or most of them), then ruling belief on the plane would be lawful evil, so the plane itself should slide into baator...or am i wrong? does only native people's belief matter?

2. now, which power would be able to defeat both baatezu & tanar'ri & hold sigil, and then, would be willing to leave it as soon as it's "fortified" again? probably no... i thought that General of Gehenna could, maybe, for xchange of something? & there are those "prophecies" that tells that he'd be able to finally end Blood War...
or, i thought about Apomps...? he's evil, yes, but... i don't think, that he would let the yougoloths to have the city, and i doubt that yougoloths would still remain "neutral"... i think that they would try to get the city for themselves, as it would seem to them, that they're loosing control of baatezu&tanar'ri...? or am i wrong? i think, as soon as city's defences would be breached, and rumour about it would spread, everybody would want the city for himself... so now what? the Greatest Battle of All Good against All Evil? i'd like to avoid that...

any ideas & fabulations & informations warmly welcomed...

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Imagine that Lady of Pain would be killed...

With regards killing The Lady of Pain... I'm not sure that it is possible short of destroying the city of Sigil. She's a mystery, enigma an unknown basically. Entire libraries are filled with tomes speculating on who and what she is... and pretty much all of that information is irrelevant and baseless guess-work.

All that we know about her is that the Dabus are her servants, when she appears her shadow flays to death anyone it passes over. As well as the fact that hose who grow to sufficient strength in the City to threaten her - they get Mazed in to a mini-prison-demiplane on the Ethereal. She also controls the portals to Sigil and is believed to be the reason why Deities and Powers are unable to enter.

So the question is... how do you kill her? There have never been any stats published, she does not adhere to the rules of a Deity (in fact she flays any that attempt to worship her).

With regards to the Baatezu and Tanar'ri bringing the Blood War to Sigil - it's happened in the past (at least once). After several weeks of fighting all that remains is an area of the Hive ward called The Slags that is still dangerous to travel through.

If The Lady of Pain controls the portals - then any invasion is thwarted by her simply shutting down specific portals or in fact all of them. The only way in or out of the city is through Portals, gating in reinforcements or other means of entry simply do not work.

With regards to killing all the natives of Elysium... the plane has a property called Traveller's Travail (if I remember correctly) that basically means that the length of any journey is determined by how much good a person does along the way. If you help a woman find her lost son - your journey will go faster. Ignore her plight or commit an evil act and you'll not be going anywhere soon.

Then there is the fact that the plane is infinite to take in to consideration and that it has more than one layer. On the other hand the number of fiends is also infinite and so it is conceivable that the fiends could spend an eternity in an organised search (the Baatezu at least) trying to kill of every native of Elysium.

Planes or portions there-of generally shift when large groups of people residing in those locations shift in their alignment and how they behave. Gate-Towns are a good example, but there are also others.

The criteria or threshold that needs to be reached before a slide occurs is entirely up to the GM. So is killing off The Lady of Pain if you wanted to. However, in my opinion it removes one of the fundamental parts of the campaign setting.

Those are my thoughts.

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Imagine that Lady of Pain would be killed...

Having said all that though...

A city without The Lady of Pain would simply make it like any other planar location. Fought over by numerous groups, most likely including Deities and the situation could well escalate out of control until the city is destroyed or it turns in to a Waterdeep- or Ptolus-like city.

So what would you have at the end of it? A really tall spire and a doughnut shaped city in ruins sticking out of the Dwarven Mountain :oops:

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Imagine that Lady of Pain would be killed...

Im sure there is a website out there that explains what happens after Sigil falls. It shouldn't be too hard to find on a search engine. If I find it before you ill post again. I just remember a picture of a shattered Sigil lying at the bottom the spire, almost sundered in two.

Good news though! The xaositects survived it Laughing out loud hehe

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Imagine that Lady of Pain would be killed...

This one http://www.harlekin-maus.com/postsigil/postsigil.html?

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Imagine that Lady of Pain would be killed...

Aye, that'll be it Smiling

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Imagine that Lady of Pain would be killed...

I played in a game once where something happened to Sigil. The Lady of Pain had disappeared, and most of the portals in the multiverse had stopped working. We had to use the Plane of Mirrors to get around. Unfortunately, the game fell apart before we got to find out what was going on.

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Ok, details...

1. How i would kill the lady of pain... remember the Nameless One from Torment? so i took the end where he joined his mortality and went to abyss or where to pay for his deeds in blood war...

my campaign continues:
he remained immortal, cause his "mortality" evolved in something very powerful while it was apart of him, and he quickly got promoted to quite inlfuent general, and he made up plan how to conquer Sigil (he's still loosing part of his memories & personality when he dies...), and he did it... somehow he got to Sigil, and made Lady of Pain try to imprison him, but instead of it, he turned the spell, so SHE got imprisoned, and then he went to place where she was, and killed her... i'll have to think over details, but generally, i think this will do...
& i presumed, that portals will be still working, but those in Sigil will get uncontrolled, so abyssan army could enter... now why i asked about sliding... i wanted Sigil to be slid into abyss, and the rest of campaign is about trying to make sigil what it was & fortify it again, to renew the balance in universe. players have got Nameless in their party, but he's not SO strong to stop whole army, so he needed help... & i wanted to "draw some legend to surface", that's why i was thinking about Apomps... but it's getting little more complicated, as i see...=)
about Elysium - i used it only as example, cause i want to avoid any of "nice" places of Planescape - the nicest place they'll get to will be Beastland, and the ugliest Pandesmos (for you to know), and last ring of Carceri... i wanted to get them to Agarthion as well, for it seems like there could be beings powerful enough to help -no need to tell me that there would be problems with transportation, or with controlling those "artifacts"-

About the good ones, i need to block them out, so they cannot go into war for sigil, or at least, not in strenght that would make them "countable" elements...
...got an idea - what about lady of pain having a machine for controlling portals? & baatezu got to it and made all portals to good spheres just one-way, for them to be allowed to send their troops there without having to worry about direct attack on Sigil?
& tanar'ri got to Sigil just because baatezu were little stupid and made the portal to Sigil be in one of their fortresses in Abyss...

now also that's why they (party) won't go to sigil, or they'll go there just once, i think..., and for the rest of the game, they'll be used to use portals in gate-towns...

one thing - will evil "demi-powers" and other creatures (abominations, Ravel, ...) be willing to fight tanar'ri and baatezu & make Sigil neutral again, just to keep Multiverse neutral? hm...i thing they should, while it will be destroyed (Multiverse) if it ever got one-sided (this is part of my philosophy - when you've got just one side (just evil) you've got nothing, cause without light there is no shadow, and without shadow, there's no light... so the Mutliverse would stop existing... not sure if some rule like this xists in Planescape, xept of the rule of the three which is little like this...)...
...hm...i think they would be willing to fight to save the Multiverse...

about that side of Post-Sigil planescape...thanks for that, could be useful, but i'm not planning to destroy sigil... the whole game is about saving it and making it what it was before...(though "replacing" Lady of Pain with a new one, what is supposed to be very interesting, as it will show, that Lady is just something like Illusion which gets power just because whole Multiverse knows about her and more-or-less believes in her great powers...=))

but i'd be also very unhappy to definately end the Blood War in my campaign...cause i like it very much & it would be little boring without it...=)

am i too ambitious? =)

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Imagine that Lady of Pain would be killed...

The Lady of Pain goes perfectly with the rules for gods, as given in deities and demigods. Only one thing not as a demigod, lesser or even greater god but as an overdeity. They are defined as beings beyond mortal comprehension, in power they make greater gods seem like mortals and they don't have worshipers. ring a bell?

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Imagine that Lady of Pain would be killed...

Overdeities care nothing for worship one way or the other. The Lady of Pain actively kills those who try to worship her (in Sigil, anyway), something overdeities aren't known to do.

One common theory is that the Lady of Pain fears that if too many people worship her she may become a god, and the city will therefore reject her as it does all other deities. This theory holds that the Lady is not a currently a god of any kind, not even an overgod (who would have no reason to fear worship).

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Imagine that Lady of Pain would be killed...

Okay, some ideas...

1. The Lady of Pain finds out about the invasion plans before they happen. Once the fiends enter, she created a maze, one which resembles Sigil perfectly, including pseudo-inhabitants. The fiends entering it fight a Blood War over Pseudo-Sigil, but they never get out again, and even if one side wins, it changes nothing.

2. The Lady of Pain gets REALLY angry (imagining she HAS emotions - who knows...). She flies up to Sigil's center, her shadow being cast all over the city... and killing everyone inside. The portals will bring the next Sigil population sooner or later...

3. The LoP makes the portals of Sigil run wild. They don't just open and close like wild, constantly changing the places they lead to; they also actively suck in people. The fiends have little chance of fighting their war, because they're spread all over the multiverse, being kicked out of Sigil.

4. Something really unexpected: The dabus can do more than just cleaning and repairing... as the fiendish invasion starts, they show their REAL powers.

5. Simplicity rules: A resident mage of Sigil sets up a trap right in front of the portal. Any fiend coming through the portal is instantly dissolved. Problem solved, and it doesn't even leave a mess.

6. The Lady of Pain IS being killed. But, this only affects her physical body. She returns, possibly as a bodyless spirit-being, possibly with a new body (maybe even a new shape), and kicks out the fiends OR waits until they're done, and then takes over the city again.

7. No matter what happens to the LoP, the city itself is alive and conscious too. Once the fiends go just that one step too far, the city starts acting. Streets move, houses shrink, cityquakes kill and destroy everything and everyone, and the city's rain is just so much MORE acidic than usual.....

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Imagine that Lady of Pain would be killed...

deities weren't excluded from sigil before LoP came were they? I'll have to check

eldersphinx's picture
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Imagine that Lady of Pain would be killed...

So lessee. I'm a tanar'ri general with sudden and unexpected DM Fiat powers that'll let me off a setting mechanic, invade and utterly subjugate a planar metropolis, and open up a new beachhead for the Blood War. I also have an Int score that's higher than a lemming's.

Fergedabout Sigil. I'm offing Dispater, taking over his Iron City, and kicking the baatezu right where they live. The City of Portals can go about its business.

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Imagine that Lady of Pain would be killed...

good point.

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Imagine that Lady of Pain would be killed...

You know, if your looking for a fiendish power that you can use against the lady and not look like a clueless, Id have to go with the big man of Baator himself, Asmodeus. No one knows exactly what he is (despite the theory that he's the last Anchient Baatorian, but considering the Anchient Baatorians were practically like a bunch of Tarresques when it came to killability, and he survived whatever killed all the others, you can still go with that I guess) you can toss alot of power his way.
But you have to give a reason why he wouldn't have done this sooner (such as he has spent all this time drawing in energy from around the plane to focus into a single attack that can destroy any one being, even the lady. Something that takes so long to charge up that it has no practical value used against such a chaotic enemy as the tan'ari, theres no real hierarchy that you can behead by taking out the leader.)
However, 'Asmodeus' has been mentioned in the same sentance as 'end of the multiverse/world/time' on more then a few occasions. So use him wisely.

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Imagine that Lady of Pain would be killed...

'Fidrikon' wrote:
But you have to give a reason why he wouldn't have done this sooner

He's been healing. Although I don't like the Guide to Hell version of Asmodeus, I do like the idea that he's vastly more powerful than he seems, and was greivously injured aeons ago, a wound he's only been able to slowly recover from. Perhaps it was a philosophical wound, and it's only through promoting LE throughout the multiverse that he slowly regenerates himself.

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Imagine that Lady of Pain would be killed...

noone likes GoH it seems. Although I can't say I like it much myself seeing how it undermines everything besides the struggle between LG and LE.

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