If you were to revamp the factions...

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Tequila Sunrise's picture
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If you were to revamp the factions...

I'm thinking of running a planescape game sometime soon, but as is usual with me I can't just play it by canon. Other than a few cosmetic changes (reducing the number of outer planes to 9), I'd like to do a little work on the factions as I plan to run a pre-faction war game. The factions, combined with Tony DiTerlizzi's artwork, was I think what made me fall in love with planescape. So if you were to revamp the factions, what would you change?

Here are a few of my thoughts:

Add the Cathar faction; these guys are to arcane casters as the Athar are to divine casters. After the rise and crash of the Incantifer faction, the Cathar quickly rose in popularity and influence. (Odd and unrelated note: the Cathar were an interesting early sect of Christianity.)

Believers of the Source: As I recall these guys ran the city foundry which always seemed like a poorly fitting job for the faction that believes that everyone has the spark of divinity within them. Instead these guys should do something like upkeep sigil's streets and public buildings.

Free League: One of my favorites, but the service they provide to Sigil has no profit whatsoever so it needs to change a little bit. Instead of the do-gooders of Sigil's markets, they operate as a kind of maffia that keeps anyone else from getting too rough with other cutter's affairs be they business, social, religious or what have you. They themselves can't get too rough because the hardheads are always on the lookout for an excuse to lock the League high-ups up.

The Mercykillers always felt redundant with the Harmonium, so I'm folding the two into the Harmonium. They police the streets and run the city jails.

The Transcendant Order is another one that I feel don't have a real purpose in Sigil. So instead of acting as mediators in the city hall, the Order keeps the city park which I think Sigil should have. They also keep the razorvine in check throughout the city. I think these nature-esque jobs fit better with their 'act, don't think' mentality. Also having a park in Sigil creates a good excuse for someone to play a druid or ranger should they choose to.

The Sign of One feels like it should be a third-party faction or a sect of another major faction; I'm thinking of just folding this faction into the Society of Sensation.

The Doomguard and the Xaositects also feel like extremist groups better suited to minor roles. I'm thinking of rolling them into the Bleak Cabal or the Dustmen.

The Revolutionary League seems like they should be rolled into the Free League. Instead of just 'don't tell me what to do or think!' they'd like to bring down all those who try to tell others what to do and think.

So, thoughts? Comments?

Spiteful Crow's picture
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If you were to revamp the factions...

What exactly are the Cathar supposed to believe?

Tequila Sunrise's picture
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If you were to revamp the factions...

Good question! :oops:

"Art? Ha, don't let yourself be taken in by the ravings of the Addicted. All you need t'know about wizardry, sorcery, arcanistry and whatnot is that it's more like a drug than anything else. Oh sure, magic is useful all right; you'd have to be a berk not to see that, but without a divine mentor or some other strong discipline magic also degrades the mind and the multiverse a little at a time. You want proof? Just take a walk on any plane you choose; wherever there's a wizard or like-addled spell slinger, more often than not there's death and destruction. Self indulgence in any drug inevitably leads to dependance, degradation, insanity and then destruction. Except that magic has a much greater potential for destruction because it effects more than just the user--how many nations, worlds and peoples have come to an end because an Addicted thought he was in control of his dependance? Arcanists are users who need to be watched and guided for everyone's good and that of the multiverse."

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If you were to revamp the factions...

Ooooooooh... there's an interesting philosophy. So, do they oppose arcane magic entirely, or do they have carefully watched "sanctioned" mages as part of their faction?

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If you were to revamp the factions...

I'd actually have the Fraternity of Order run the cities universities and Record Houses.

The MERCYKILLERS would handle sentencing and bounty hunting.

The Fated would run the cities Merchant Guilds.

Tequila Sunrise's picture
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If you were to revamp the factions...

'Spiteful Crow' wrote:
Ooooooooh... there's an interesting philosophy. So, do they oppose arcane magic entirely, or do they have carefully watched "sanctioned" mages as part of their faction?
A faction of Sigil who opposed arcane magic entirely would be like an Amish corporation in New York City, so yes, the Cathar would have a few 'sanctioned' arcanists within their ranks. Likely such individuals would mostly be multiclassed or would be partial casters like bards.

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If you were to revamp the factions...

'Charles Phipps' wrote:
I'd actually have the Fraternity of Order run the cities universities and Record Houses.

The MERCYKILLERS would handle sentencing and bounty hunting.

The Fated would run the cities Merchant Guilds.


Oh, I like your ideas about the Fraternity and the Fated; consider them yoinked!

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If you were to revamp the factions...

Greetings:

How about a faction called the Augmentalists?

Basically their core belief is that you can make yourself better through extreme exercise, study and augmentation through magic, technologies, potions/drugs etc...

The Godsmen might get along well with them, but the Harmonium wouldn't care for the augmentation though potions/drugs...

Just a thought

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If you were to revamp the factions...

BAAL the Goatlord wrote:

Quote:

How about a faction called the Augmentalists?

Basically their core belief is that you can make yourself better through extreme exercise, study and augmentation through magic, technologies, potions/drugs etc...

They sound similar to Expansionist (aka Growers) faction. Puzzled

They philosophy was also bound to belif that in order to achive enlightment body must gather power of all kind (physical, mental, magical, etc..) but also body must seek to master control over that powers and so that powers do not control him.

They were very popular faction that atracted all kinds of bullies and thugs, but eventualy their factol was banished into Lady's mazes and without leadership they have disbanded... (mayority of members left to Fated).

Nowdays they exist only in form of sect.
Anyways, Agumentalists could be Expansionists offshot sect.

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If you were to revamp the factions...

How about a faction or sect (of the communals) called the Collective

Essentially, all the members of this group use wearable magic items to link their minds. Instead of sharing physical property, the members would share their thoughts. The effect would be similar to that of cranium rats but not quite so powerful. The group could communicate telepathically, and essentially have access to any of the skills that any other member of the group would have (not necessarily ranks though.) The link wouldn't be powerful enough to share spells and would only work when members are in Sigil (otherwise, look out!)

I imagine the items used for this effect would be pretty expensive, so the faction would be small and very selective of it's members. I like the idea, but I can see how this could cause a few DM headaches, hence some of the limitations.

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Factions re-vamped.

'BAAL the Goatlord' wrote:
How about a faction or sect (of the communals) called the Collective.

That'd be an interesting villain group. Have them attempt to join Sigil, and eventually the Planes in one great consensus! The group itself could be harmless, but a splinter group within the sect could start snagging bubbers out of the Hive, and Clueless, those that wouldn't be missed, amassing an army of berks with wills to weak to resist. All in the name of universal harmony. That said, they might even have sympathizers within the Harmonium, bashers drawn to the philosophy of absolute Harmony through Consensus.

As for the other Factions I like the idea of the Doomguard as a terrorist group. I'm not sure about the Free League as mafiosos. What about the Transcenant Order's connection with the Great Gymnasium and the betterment of mind and body? Imagine a health board that acted, instead of saying what it would do and then tying itself in up in inaction and buearacracy.

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If you were to revamp the factions...

'BAAL the Goatlord' wrote:
How about a faction or sect (of the communals) called the Collective I imagine the items used for this effect would be pretty expensive, so the faction would be small and very selective of it's members. I like the idea, but I can see how this could cause a few DM headaches, hence some of the limitations.

They could use psions and psychic creatures with Mindlink or similar powers. Heck the whole thing could be subverted by a doppleganger Telepath who tapped into the groups surface thoughts, and is turning them to its' own nefarious schemes.

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If you were to revamp the factions...

'BAAL the Goatlord' wrote:
Greetings:

How about a faction called the Augmentalists?

Basically their core belief is that you can make yourself better through extreme exercise, study and augmentation through magic, technologies, potions/drugs etc...

Oddly, I have the Transcendent Order completely changed to reflect something like this. In my games, the Transcendent Order seeks perfection in all forms. They're friends with the Godsmen but don't seek godhood as opposed to self-mastery.

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If you were to revamp the factions...

I like the idea of expanding the Transcendant Order's philosophy to include personal perfection, unity and oneness with the multiverse. Though the 'personal betterment' part sounds a lot like the Fated's 'work hard' philosophy...argh!

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If you were to revamp the factions...

'Tequila Sunrise' wrote:
I like the idea of expanding the Transcendant Order's philosophy to include personal perfection, unity and oneness with the multiverse. Though the 'personal betterment' part sounds a lot like the Fated's 'work hard' philosophy...argh!

I removed "Work Hard" from the Fated.

I'm okay with "Personal Enrichment and advancement."

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If you were to revamp the factions...

I'm always wary of a faction whose philosophy--in which its members believe with such ardorous fervor that they actually derive magic powers from their dedication--consists of "you're wrong" and not "I'm right." That's my major gripe with the Anarchists, for example. They're all about terrorism, but no one ever explains what they actually want to happen next. There's always the idea given that they expect everyone to be happy, but who knows how?

They're all about fighting the good fight, but as far as I can tell, they're so caught up in their revolution that they've forgotten what they're fighting for. But maybe that's a compelling story.

Anyway, I think it's important that a faction always have some purpose, some goal, that it holds above all else. Otherwise how do you explain why on earth someone would cleave so tightly to an idea like that.

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If you were to revamp the factions...

'Rhys' wrote:
I'm always wary of a faction whose philosophy--in which its members believe with such ardorous fervor that they actually derive magic powers from their dedication--consists of "you're wrong" and not "I'm right." That's my major gripe with the Anarchists, for example. They're all about terrorism, but no one ever explains what they actually want to happen next. There's always the idea given that they expect everyone to be happy, but who knows how?
I have a couple gripes with the Anarchists. First I can't see enough berks believing strongly enough in such a negative idea as anarchy to form anything as cohesive and widespread as a faction. I mean really, even in troubled times anarchists make up a very small part of any population--I imagine that most Sigilans recognize that the factions do contribute meaningfully to Sigil's existance, even if their preachers are annoying.

Second the Anarchists have no real purpose in Sigil. I can't remember what my old Planescape boxed set said their supposed purpose was, but it wasn't running the alms-house, or a school, or anything to do with the city hall or anything really useful.

Those are my two requirements for a philosophy to be a faction; it has to be a philosophy appealing to a decent number of people and to be a faction it has to provide a definable service to Sigil.

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If you were to revamp the factions...

Quote:
I have a couple gripes with the Anarchists. First I can't see enough berks believing strongly enough in such a negative idea as anarchy to form anything as cohesive and widespread as a faction. I mean really, even in troubled times anarchists make up a very small part of any population--I imagine that most Sigilans recognize that the factions do contribute meaningfully to Sigil's existance, even if their preachers are annoying.

Actually, the irony is that any sane person would want the destruction of the Factions. The Harmonium, Mercykillers, and Fraternity of Order is a dysfunctional oligarchy at the divying up of important social services when...I dunno.....PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY SHOULD BENEFIT FROM THEM should be running them.

The Revolutionary League aren't Anarchists Either. They're people that have a philosophical commitment to tearing the System down. Now, very few people want to tear down it ALL but there's certainly enough to justify spending your entire life fighting it.

For me, I love that Sigil has a persistent terrorism problem with each cell wanting to build a better Sigil and only causing endless waves of Bagdad style violence.

and, no offense, ANARCHY is too negative ideal? Sigil has a Faction devoted to the destruction of everything in the universe and a faction where everyone is dead.

Quote:
They're all about fighting the good fight, but as far as I can tell, they're so caught up in their revolution that they've forgotten what they're fighting for. But maybe that's a compelling story.

I'm sure there's plenty who have VERY CLEAR ideas of What Happens NextTM. However, the Anarchists are united by their opposition rather than their goal. The Monotheists and the Communists will happily work together until it's all torn down.

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If you were to revamp the factions...

'Charles Phipps' wrote:
Actually, the irony is that any sane person would want the destruction of the Factions. The Harmonium, Mercykillers, and Fraternity of Order is a dysfunctional oligarchy at the divying up of important social services when...I dunno.....PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY SHOULD BENEFIT FROM THEM should be running them.
Would Sigil's public services work more smoothly if one entity was in charge? Of course, but I don't imagine that the factions are all that bad at working together, especially like minded ones like the Frats, hardheads and Mercykillers. If the factions were really that dysfunctional, the Lady wouldn't tolerate them. Maybe the Sigil I imagine is just a bit happier than yours. *shrug*

'Charles Phipps' wrote:
For me, I love that Sigil has a persistent terrorism problem with each cell wanting to build a better Sigil and only causing endless waves of Bagdad style violence.
I have trouble imagining any city existing for eons with a consistent terrorism element. I think after a few hundred years things would actually change or the terrorists would be exterminated.

'Charles Phipps' wrote:
and, no offense, ANARCHY is too negative ideal? Sigil has a Faction devoted to the destruction of everything in the universe and a faction where everyone is dead.
I don't do the Doomguard; too negative and too pointless. The Dustmen I can actually imagine having a following in a city which is regularly visited and surrounded by beings that have died and can talk about it. Their philosophy is general enough that it would attract a lot of Sigil's dispossessed and just plain depressed, and besides the Dustmen actually perform an important and necessary function in Sigil. (What was it the Doomguard did in Sigil besides training to smash things better?)

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If you were to revamp the factions...

Ironicly, I don't have the Doomguard, in their place are the Forgesmiths.

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If you were to revamp the factions...

You know, I don't especially mind the Sinkers. I'd be nervous about the ones who go out of their way trying to gleefully destroy everything, but lots of Sinkers aren't like that.

In and of itself, the Sinker mindset isn't any scarier than http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics.

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If you were to revamp the factions...

Agree with Zim here.

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If you were to revamp the factions...

Quote:
Would Sigil's public services work more smoothly if one entity was in charge? Of course, but I don't imagine that the factions are all that bad at working together, especially like minded ones like the Frats, hardheads and Mercykillers. If the factions were really that dysfunctional, the Lady wouldn't tolerate them. Maybe the Sigil I imagine is just a bit happier than yours. *shrug*

Actually, I thought it was clear that Sigil is by nature one of the most dysfunctional cities in the Multiverse. It has parts that run like Clockwork but also parts that operate as badly as Plague-Morte. The Factions openly hate each other and actively plot against one another with the Dabus taking care of everything that doesn't work.

Quote:
I have trouble imagining any city existing for eons with a consistent terrorism element. I think after a few hundred years things would actually change or the terrorists would be exterminated.

The terrorists are routinely exterminated. Then more come because it's a society where you have LG Exemplars standing next to CE Exemplars. Fundamentally, Sigil is a City where people believe strongly and whether it's for good or evil, it's a city of conflict.

The Revolutionary League is right. The Factions are THAT corrupt. They're the good guys. It's just that they're also infilitrated by people who are just as bad.

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If you were to revamp the factions...

TheSky wrote:
Ironicly, I don't have the Doomguard, in their place are the Forgesmiths.

/encyclopedia/node/]
I like Forgesmith philosophy, but what is their function in Sigil?

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If you were to revamp the factions...

'Charles Phipps'] Actually, I thought it was clear that Sigil is by nature one of the most dysfunctional cities in the Multiverse. It has parts that run like Clockwork but also parts that operate as badly as Plague-Morte. The Factions openly hate each other and actively plot against one another with the Dabus taking care of everything that doesn't work.
Quote:
It might be clear from the materials that you have, but I don't even have the boxed set anymore. And frankly I'm not overly concerned with canon anyway. I don't much like the Dabus and I don't think they'll exist in my Sigil. If the dabus can take care of what the factions don't, why don't they just take care of everything? Then there'd be no need of the factions, a scenario I don't like.

[QUOTE='Charles Phipps' wrote:


The Revolutionary League is right. The Factions are THAT corrupt. They're the good guys. It's just that they're also infilitrated by people who are just as bad.

That sounds suspiciously like a personal opinion rather than a fact. Eye-wink

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If you were to revamp the factions...

Some time ago I had run game in wich main villans were sect created from unification of Doomguard and Merchants. Since that campain ended before it truly started I think that is okay to share the idea with you.

Ok, the this sect was caled the House of Red Locustus , it simbol was cog created from eight red locustus (I borowed that from Bone comics). Anyways, Locustus were something of planar mega corporation that made profit from pilaging natural resourses of underdeveloped worlds all in name of betterment of life and civilisation. They were in sipirt something like Pentex corporation from White Wolfs: World of Darkness.
Basicly the sect phylosophy was: If world have to end, why we don't proffit from resourses that will go to waste anyway and from folk that will die anyway. Secondly they belived that advanced civilisation is nothing but vermin that consume more that they produce. So they nurture civilisation need for tehnology, industry, transportation, working places and then basicly they leave people to wear out their own worlds. Finaly when life becomes unbearable they simply relocate populace on another set of worlds to speed entropy a little bit more.

Their HQ is on demiplane anchored between planes of Ash, Vacum, Salt, Dust and Negative Energy Plane. It is huge foundry city without bottom that exist only to consume resourses from countles planes. The factory city is creating something that is certain, but what is that no one knows except executive board.

Basicly, for that campain I wanted more corupt, subtler and cruleler version of Doomguard that in used people to achive their ends under mask of benefiction. Too bad the campain failed. Sad

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If you were to revamp the factions...

'Tequila Sunrise' wrote:

It might be clear from the materials that you have, but I don't even have the boxed set anymore. And frankly I'm not overly concerned with canon anyway. I don't much like the Dabus and I don't think they'll exist in my Sigil. If the dabus can take care of what the factions don't, why don't they just take care of everything? Then there'd be no need of the factions, a scenario I don't like.

No offense, but this sorta undermines your point here.

Quote:
That sounds suspiciously like a personal opinion rather than a fact.

Basically, Planescape is the first "Dungeonpunk" setting. The whole point of it is sorta of a Cyberpunk mentality where the Factions represent the Man to a certain extent. The Harmonium, Mercykillers, and Fraternity of Order are a bunch of bad guys but filled with just enough good guys that it's not a good idea to just go slaughter them. Likewise; the opposition to them in the Doomguard and Revolutionary League are as corrupt or even worse.

Why do the Factions need to exist if the Dabus do everything? Uhhh, that's canonically factual. They aren't needed. When the Factions all disappear from Sigil, not a damn thing changes because they're just people looting the till and Monte Cook outright says as much.

The only difference is there's a power vacuum that'll be filled.

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If you were to revamp the factions...

'Charles Phipps' wrote:
Basically, Planescape is the first "Dungeonpunk" setting. The whole point of it is sorta of a Cyberpunk mentality where the Factions represent the Man to a certain extent. The Harmonium, Mercykillers, and Fraternity of Order are a bunch of bad guys but filled with just enough good guys that it's not a good idea to just go slaughter them. Likewise; the opposition to them in the Doomguard and Revolutionary League are as corrupt or even worse.

Why do the Factions need to exist if the Dabus do everything? Uhhh, that's canonically factual. They aren't needed. When the Factions all disappear from Sigil, not a damn thing changes because they're just people looting the till and Monte Cook outright says as much.


Let me put this differently. I want the factions to be necessary to Sigil; they're the Lady's way of governing her domain without doing much actual work. In order for the factions to be necessary, they have to actually provide Sigil's populace with necessary services; neither the factions nor the factioneers need be do-gooders, but they need to operate well enough so that the populace doesn't rebel and the Lady doesn't give them the boot. Whether this scenario conflicts with canon is irrelevant to me. Truth is in the eye of the DM, as they say.

Whatever Monte has said about Sigil, he sounds like a cool guy so I doubt he would object to me going against canon in my own game, even if he were to know of its existance. After all, he seems to be the designer who most espouses alternate ways of running the game.

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'Tequila Sunrise' wrote:

Whatever Monte has said about Sigil, he sounds like a cool guy so I doubt he would object to me going against canon in my own game, even if he were to know of its existance. After all, he seems to be the designer who most espouses alternate ways of running the game.

I'm just presenting an alternative that I happen to prefer. For me, I love the Factions as philosophical groups but I also like the rampant cynicism that coats the place. At heart, the Revolutionary League and Harmonium both want to DO something about the horrible corruption in Sigil. If you remove the corruption then, less the Revolutionary League is less necessary, but it's also a less rich setting.

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