If you slay a drow from Toril...

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Felenthir Enthelion's picture
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If you slay a drow from Toril...

Hi!

I'm running a Planescape campaign.

One of my friends plays a CE torilian drow follower of Vhaeraun. He has lived in the outlands for 3 years.

In the last session he was killed during a battle on Avernus, the 1st layer of Baator. He is not properly a faithful guy....

I'm wondering what should happen to his soul. I mean, are torilian elves submitted to Kelemvorn judgement? Vhaeraun is not a power of the torilian pantheon (Lolth is but her son isn't if I remember well).
Are all the souls of those mortals that were born on Toril examinated by Kelemvor? Even if they die outside the realmspace and are followers of gods that do not belong to his pantheon? Shocked

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If you slay a drow from Toril...

Hm. Well - ok - from the top I'd say the first thing s far as I know there's no official canon answer on this. So there's nothing we can point to and say "It says here that..."

So if I were presented with this situation in my own game?

First, I would have to ask myself if I'm running a Planescape game or a Forgotten Realms game. That'll decide if Kelemvor gets involved in this as a judge automatically or not.

Second I would ask, "Which way is more fun for the players?" If one way is just sorta meh when it comes to getting the character raised and the other lends itself to plothooks galore - I know which one I'm picking. I assume that's why you're asking, you're looking for plot stuff right? Otherwise if the players were never going to find out In Character where he went I would suggest saving your efforts for things that will actually come Up in play.

420
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If you slay a drow from Toril...

'Felenthir Enthelion' wrote:

I'm wondering what should happen to his soul. I mean, are torilian elves submitted to Kelemvorn judgement? Vhaeraun is not a power of the torilian pantheon (Lolth is but her son isn't if I remember well).


Vhaeraun is part of the Forgotten Realms drow pantheon according to 3rd edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (pg. 237).

Also, according to pg 258 & 259 "The Afterlife", only the Faithless and the False are judged by Kelemvor. All other mortal souls are gathered from the Fugue Plane by a representative of their deity (usually an Outsider) and taken to their deity's realm.

-420

Dire Lemon's picture
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If you slay a drow from Toril...

At least that's what they want you to believe. Eye-wink

Felenthir Enthelion's picture
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If you slay a drow from Toril...

Yes, I forgot to tell this. Smiling
I'm playing 3rd edition D&D. And I use FR with the Great Wheel like it was in the 2nd ed.

My players are 2 planars and 2 torilian prime. One of this is the drow I'm talking about.

Quote:
I would ask, "Which way is more fun for the players?

I think it would be descovering that, unlike planars, people from Toril can't forget to be humble and pray one patron deity. Otherwise they make a bad end. Life is unfair, oh yess.
My idea was to show to this player a view of the Crystal Spyre and make him frightened of being judget by Kel. The other players will resurrect him before is too late.

Quote:
Also, according to pg 258 & 259 "The Afterlife", only the Faithless and the False are judged by Kelemvor. All other mortal souls are gathered from the Fugue Plane by a representative of their deity (usually an Outsider) and taken to their deity's realm.

Yes, but it is also said in the last book on the drow, the sacrifice of the widow, that Vhaeraun doesn't accept in Elleniath those souls he doesn't find deserving.

Now I presume that Those souls who aren't accepted in the realms of their gods, I think are the damned that are judged by Kelemvor, together with the Faithless and the False.

Quote:
Vhaeraun is part of the Forgotten Realms drow pantheon according to 3rd edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (pg. 237)

True. What I meant is that he is not part of the fearunian pantheon, unlike Lolth (as described in Faith and Pantheons). So I don't know if a unhuman soul of toril must be judged by kel.

420
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If you slay a drow from Toril...

'Felenthir Enthelion' wrote:

What I meant is that he is not part of the fearunian pantheon, unlike Lolth (as described in Faith and Pantheons).


Why do you keep insisting he isn't part of the Faerûn pantheon?

Forgotten Realms = Faerûn

Therefor Vhaeraun is in fact part of the Faerûn drow pantheon.

-420

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If you slay a drow from Toril...

'420' wrote:
Why do you keep insisting he isn't part of the Faerûn pantheon?

Because he isn't. He's part of the drow pantheon.

The Faerunian pantheon is a group of gods worshipped by the humans of Faerûn. The drow pantheon is a group of gods worshipped by the drow of Faerûn (and other places). They are not the same.

In Faiths & Pantheons, each pantheon has its own section. Lolth is described twice, once in the Faerûnian pantheon and once in the drow pantheon. Vhaeraun is described only once, in the drow section. Kelemvor is described only in the Faerûnian section. However, Vhaeraun is also described in Monster Mythology and the official list of Living Greyhawk deities.

This is important, I think. Vhaeraun is a multi-spheric god, worshipped on many worlds other than Toril. Outside of Toril, he has no responsibility to allow Kelemvor to judge the souls of his followers. Kelemvor has no particular power in the Outlands.

So it comes down to the question of whether the character's soul has to be vetted through Kelemvor simply because he was born on Toril, or if this only happens if he's in a realm or world under the control of Kelemvor/Ao.

It's conceivable that Kelemvor has some kind of claim on the character's soul simply because he happened to be born on Toril. Or you could argue that by venturing into the Outlands, the drow left any such claim behind him. Certainly Vhaeraun doesn't care about Kelemvor; they don't belong to the same pantheon.

Felenthir Enthelion's picture
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If you slay a drow from Toril...

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It's conceivable that Kelemvor has some kind of claim on the character's soul simply because he happened to be born on Toril. Or you could argue that by venturing into the Outlands, the drow left any such claim behind him. Certainly Vhaeraun doesn't care about Kelemvor; they don't belong to the same pantheon.

mmm... I think you are right Smiling . After all this drow is a prime. And primes can't become planars, their sons can, but they can't. So he must abide to the laws of Abeir-Toril (I still wonder if people born in matzica and in the other part of this prime world are judged by Kel anyway).
However, belief is very powerful in the Outer Planes. What could happen if a Torilian prime understands that there are many worlds and many pantheons that follow different rules? After all, planars have much more freedom than primes when they die, because they aren't judged by any god.

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If you slay a drow from Toril...

I don't think that Kelemvor automatically judges humans born on Aber-Toril outside Faerun. Take Kara-Tur for example; the Celestial Bureaucracy would probably have a greater claim than Kelemvor for many souls, even some who died in Faerun (e.g. Shou). I am not familiar with the pantheons of Maztica or Zakhara, but I suspect that a similar argument can be made there as well.

Another way to approach the argument is to determine the path a soul has to travel in order to reach the afterlife. Since I can't find a definitive answer, I would simply defer to DM adjudication. The first major hurdle is to determine who sits in judgment of the dead.

1) The DM can say that all characters' souls must travel to the gates of judgment determined by where they were born- thereby suggesting that characters' souls are "anchored" to a realm/god of judgment upon birth. This may work well for standard (i.e. prime) campaigns, but you could run into serious problems applying it to a planar campaign.

2) Another option is to have a character sent to judgment based on their faith- allowing the judge within the pantheon or their representative (e.g. St. Peter at the Pearly Gates)- thereby suggesting that characters' souls are anchored to a realm/god of judgment based on belief. I happen to like this because it fits the Planescape theme better.

Another thing to keep in mind are burial rituals. The DM could also rule that characters' souls that they go to judgment based on their location upon death- this could make recovering the body of a fallen comrad very important. I also happen to like this as well because very few characters would want to abandon their steadfast companion to the Abyss only to have his soul trapped and become a bodak.

Felenthir Enthelion's picture
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If you slay a drow from Toril...

Quote:
1) The DM can say that all characters' souls must travel to the gates of judgment determined by where they were born- thereby suggesting that characters' souls are "anchored" to a realm/god of judgment upon birth.

2) Another option is to have a character sent to judgment based on their faith- allowing the judge within the pantheon or their representative (e.g. St. Peter at the Pearly Gates)- thereby suggesting that characters' souls are anchored to a realm/god of judgment based on belief.

I like those 2 options very much
The 1st one is cool, because it gives the idea of an unfair destiny for one soul that has abandoned the Prime andeven choosen a new pantheon.

420
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If you slay a drow from Toril...

'ripvanwormer' wrote:

The Faerunian pantheon is a group of gods worshipped by the humans of Faerûn. The drow pantheon is a group of gods worshipped by the drow of Faerûn (and other places). They are not the same.

In Faiths & Pantheons, each pantheon has its own section. Lolth is described twice, once in the Faerûnian pantheon and once in the drow pantheon. Vhaeraun is described only once, in the drow section. Kelemvor is described only in the Faerûnian section. However, Vhaeraun is also described in Monster Mythology and the official list of Living Greyhawk deities.


Ah, thanks for clearing that up, I didn't realize there was a distinction in Faiths & Pantheons.

However, since Vhaeraun is worshiped by Faerûn drow those drow would be subject to the same fate as all mortal souls of Faerûn.

Would it matter if the drow in question took Vhaeraun as his patron deity before leaving Toril to travel the planes? I think it would because belief involves the accepted conditions of the local faith.

-420

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If you slay a drow from Toril...

there's isn't an official answer only that Kelemvor judges humans and humanoids

I like the take that when a creature dies, it has no race, all souls are the same, petitioners.

If a human worshiped Sehanine Moonbow as his patron (like Khelben) then his soul passes to Arvandor
and becomes elf-shaped. Race is just a cultural thing.

Kelemvor protects and watches over the Fugue Plane, he sustains the neutral ground for all souls that wait to be collected by their patrons, like a station-master. It doesn't matter where they've died, but where they were born (it maybe applies to whole Realmspace). He judges only those who have no patron or were rejected by it, other souls are free of his judgment. Kelemvor safeguards the plane, otherwise gods or their agents might war there, take or kill souls that don't belong to them.

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If you slay a drow from Toril...

I'm not familiar with a whole lot of the books cited and never grooved too much into the religions.

Here's how I'd play it:

The adventurers gathered in the chapel. The High Priest, much greased with treasure and quests, stands over the body of their slain comrade. Chants are intoned, burnished thuribles waved, sacrifices made.

As the chanting reaches a fevered pitch, a wrenching "GONG" sounds...a blue folded piece of paper appears on the corpses body. In magical script readable even by Grunt the Orc, the players are all summoned by name to testify on behalf of the deceased and the various powers who claim liens on his soul (It seems that those on Baator are claiming the souls of all the dead on their plane and there is a class action lawsuit...which the character in question is being used as a test case...)

Investigations, skullduggery, and a bit of behind the scenes mayhem ("We have GOT to knock off that baatezu lawyer! He's killing us in the Courtroom!)

Maybe it's time to find his first Mistress to whom he promised his soul when he was a toddler of 20 to get a quit claim... Eye-wink

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If you slay a drow from Toril...

'Wretch' wrote:
I*snip*

Personally, I love the idea of this happening.

It's so Planescape.

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