...should it be treated as a continuation of what has gone before, but with sore changes (i.e. the Yugoloths defect en masse to the side of Chaotic Evil, the Succubi join the side of the Devils, etc..., or should the changes be considered retroactive (i.e. the Blood War didn't END, it NEVER OCCURED in this reality.) If the chnges are retroactive, then perhaps the Faction War never took place, either (!). If the events of the Great Wheel still took place and the new Planes were brought into being via some catastrophic event (i.e. the LeShay meddling with the timeline again), then Sigil would likely be immune and the events of the Faction War would still hold, so the Factions would still be in exile. The Faction headquarters would have to be relocated to new planes in most cases... I personally think this whole bussiness of the Yugoloths joining the Tannari (ahem, DEMONS) is a peel instituted by the Ultroloths or Baernaloths. Or maybe the Baatezu finally wised up and saw thru the Yugoloths schemes of manipulation, and the Demons are the only group left to work with!
If Planescape is played using the 4E Planes and storyline...
Yeah, it wouldn't be hard to start up a new Blood War (or continue the old). I imagine the first time the two sides meet they'd be at it again, new cosmology or not. On the other hand, with no Blood War you could have some interesting (if likely very temporary!) alliances... imagine if the two sides ever worked together on something... YIKES!!! I suspect that locating the Abyss at the bottom of the Elemental Chaos and putting the Nine Hells in the Astral Sea was WOTC's way of separating the two so there'd be less contact and chance of conflict... but given enough time, the two WILL be at odds, inevitably. That's just the way of things.
I thought the whole point in retroactively making the Blood War never have existed was to make everything into simple good versus evil.
Devils are the fallen servants of an older god, who was presumably warring against the demons at the time, and the devils could well feel that this duty remains legally binding upon them. It should be noted that in the 4e excerpt describing Yeenoghu, we have that Graz'zt occasionally "maneuvers Yeenoghu into battles" at great cost to the Prince of Gnolls' forces; presumably these battles are not with Graz'zt himself, which suggests that Yeenoghu is being used as fodder in a Blood War which is indeed ongoing.
Bel, lord of Avernus, is still a military genius and Avernus is still scarred from endless battles; presumably the devils are fighting someone, likely the Blood War. On the other hand, we have that it's difficult for the devils to leave the Nine Hells, though they can do so occasionally, especially as a result of pacts forged with others; if certain evil gods find it useful to fight the demons, devils would doubtless gleefully arrange to be summoned out to fight, at an appropriate rate in blood and souls.
So it looks as though the Blood War is still a likely component of the 4e cosmology. We'll need the Manual of the Planes to learn more, I suspect, especially in determining whether Gehenna and the Gray Waste have any similar roles.
Nice idea for a scene. I immeidiately want the PCs to have a hand in (re) starting the blood war.
I don't hold out much hope (I bet there isn't even a Grey Waste in the 4e cosmology), but it seems like an easy fan-addition... and that would make any 4e Blood Wars stuff an 'exclusive' Planewalker affair, if you see what I mean. We could really go to town.
I'm going to assume that the 'loths becoming demons is just one giant Xanatos Gambit by the General of Gehenna.
Actually, I wrote an article about this and some theories on how the planes were organized
Oh? Would you mind telling me where I can read that article of yours? Or haven't you posted it?
one thing that i have done in the past (and continue to do to mess with peoples heads) is use parralel worlds within the cosmology, so that every plane has at least one alternative version of itself (meaning that the players could in theory bump into themselves) and the only place without a parrelel is Sigil.
but i digress.
what it basically boils down to to my mind is quite simply that all things can be true at the same time, just in diffrent places.
-=R286=-
Breaking the omniverse
Actually, I wrote an article about this and some theories on how the planes were organized
i did that once too, i also attempted several diagrams, took up most of one of my small sketchbooks before a friend of mine pointed out that it was almost impossible to describe a 4 dimensional non newtonian universe whilst trying to use 2D sketches and 3D concepts. it just doesnt work.
so now i just go with the theory that all cosmologys are true, and what doesnt fit, i ignore. it works for me.
-=R286=-
Fudging numbers so that everything fits.
Actually I did, but I took it off because nobody posted on it. Pretty self-consious, isn't it? I'll post it right now
Actually, I wrote an article about this and some theories on how the planes were organized
i did that once too, i also attempted several diagrams, took up most of one of my small sketchbooks before a friend of mine pointed out that it was almost impossible to describe a 4 dimensional non newtonian universe whilst trying to use 2D sketches and 3D concepts. it just doesnt work.
so now i just go with the theory that all cosmologys are true, and what doesnt fit, i ignore. it works for me.
-=R286=-
Fudging numbers so that everything fits.
I'd hate to tear down that rather valient effort, but that wasn't really what I had in mind. It's more on how I saw where the planes went in the new multiverse. That's pretty cool that you did that, though, and I would love to see where you went with it until the end
Maybe th 4th ed cosmology can be a representation of Planescape's past?
Say, you know how the Doomguard released a bunch of Entropes in the Elemental Planes, hoping they would break down the barriers between the Inner Planes? Judging by the Elemental Chaos, I'd say their plan worked beyond their wildest expectations, eh?
>>devils would doubtless gleefully arrange to be summoned out to fight, at an appropriate rate in blood and souls.<<
I could see an amusing adventure being developed from this idea: a group of adventurers, discovering that an evil priesthood plans a mass devil summoning, arives on scene with full intention of stomping the cultists into mush - but are they so enthusiastic when they discover that hordes of demons are getting increasingly out of control and the priests are doing this in hopes of balancing the tide, pushing back the demonic aggressors with the only weapon they know will work? And what if these priests aren't evil at all, but neutral, or chaotic good and desperate? What if an angel were masterminding an attempt to release an army of devils into - is it still the abyss? - to stop an ever mounting demonic force before it motivates itself beyond infighting and decides to destroy some plane world? What is an adventurer to do?
I'd probably go with a retroactive history, because I think I can keep both facts and feel almost exactly the same (the Blood War, for example definitely will be happening; As I said on the cosmology thread: "one side wants to see the universe destroyed in a orgy of terror and violence, and the other wants to rule it with an iron fist.... sounds pretty much like the Blood War to me!")
There'll be the occasional bit of obvious DM verrisimitude-twisting where its unavoidable of course - Red Shroud becomes a 'fallen' devil, now allied with the Abyss and ruling Broken Reach, etc. On the whole however, I think that the plot contrivances required to cause all the changes "in game" are at least as obvious as the little many ones I'm asking the Players to accept if I make the history retroactive.
There will be Rule of Fours though....