How to destroy Sigil

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lsdfjkdsf's picture
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How to destroy Sigil

A friend I know IMed me two weeks ago with a problem with his new campaign. And what a problem it was.

Him: "I have this great campaign, but I need a way to kill the Lady of Pain."
Me: "You can't kill the Lady of Pain. Planescape doesn't work like that."
Him: "But I need Sigil to be under the control of the Baatezu, and there's no way the Lady of Pain would let that happen."
Me: "You can't kill the Lady of Pain. You just can't."
Him: "But my entire idea revolves around t he Baatezu using Sigil to attack other planes."

After a little more dialogue and a lot more begging, I agree to see if I can think of anything. Which, as usual, means search Planewalker.com for relevant info. Sadly, I couldn't find anything, so I had to actually think. After a while, I finally came up with an idea that I like more and more the more I think about it.

I wanted something a little more realistic than "The Lady just got up and left" and a little less cliche than "Super powerful diety gathers enough power to kill the Lady." So, here it is....

A Baatezu General (or any race for that matter, but they need to be organized in a highly efficient army) sends the majority of his army into Sigil. The demonic army than sits down, and prays to the Lady of Pain. The Lady cannot maze or kill the entire army, and they are able to pray unhindered (though I'm sure the Lady isn't going to allow this without killing as many as possible, but when you're a demon, nobody cares).

What happens next is open for discussion. I have to assume there is a good reason why the Lady kills any would-be followers. A catastrophic explosion is which the lady is destroyed and takes a good portion of Sigil with her is my favorite option. However, it's really up in the air what you want to have happen next. If you really want, another major power could decide to claim Sigil (that power could even give the idea to the demon general). After that, the chaos begins.

I think it could work, and it's defenitly never been tried before. What does everyone else here think?

Eldan's picture
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How to destroy Sigil

Hmm. The problem there is that the lady could just block all portals the army wants to take, since she has total control over them.

Zimrazim's picture
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How to destroy Sigil

'lsdfjkdsf' wrote:
A friend I know IMed me two weeks ago with a problem with his new campaign. And what a problem it was.

Him: "I have this great campaign, but I need a way to kill the Lady of Pain."
Me: "You can't kill the Lady of Pain. Planescape doesn't work like that."
Him: "But I need Sigil to be under the control of the Baatezu, and there's no way the Lady of Pain would let that happen."
Me: "You can't kill the Lady of Pain. You just can't."
Him: "But my entire idea revolves around t he Baatezu using Sigil to attack other planes."

After a little more dialogue and a lot more begging, I agree to see if I can think of anything. Which, as usual, means search Planewalker.com for relevant info. Sadly, I couldn't find anything, so I had to actually think. After a while, I finally came up with an idea that I like more and more the more I think about it.

I wanted something a little more realistic than "The Lady just got up and left" and a little less cliche than "Super powerful diety gathers enough power to kill the Lady." So, here it is....

A Baatezu General (or any race for that matter, but they need to be organized in a highly efficient army) sends the majority of his army into Sigil. The demonic army than sits down, and prays to the Lady of Pain. The Lady cannot maze or kill the entire army, and they are able to pray unhindered (though I'm sure the Lady isn't going to allow this without killing as many as possible, but when you're a demon, nobody cares).

What happens next is open for discussion. I have to assume there is a good reason why the Lady kills any would-be followers. A catastrophic explosion is which the lady is destroyed and takes a good portion of Sigil with her is my favorite option. However, it's really up in the air what you want to have happen next. If you really want, another major power could decide to claim Sigil (that power could even give the idea to the demon general). After that, the chaos begins.

I think it could work, and it's defenitly never been tried before. What does everyone else here think?

In my opinion -- a good story > ANY game mechanic.

The Lady of Pain (in my view) is there for three reasons (of the out of character kind):
1) to keep Sigil relatively stable as a setting for PCs to adventure in
2) to allow races that would otherwise slaughter each other (fiends/celestials for example) to exist in the same space for roleplaying reasons;
3) to remind player characters that there is ALWAYS something bigger than them that can easily give them and their stacks of +5 swords a beatdown.

As a DM, if you want the Lady of Pain to be overthrown, do it!

Yes, of course there would be cosmic consequences. First off, Sigil is literally located in the center of the multiverse -- it's a great big floating donut at the center of the Spire, in the middle of the Outlands. I do find myself thinking that if something upset the city, especially in a major alignment-related sense, it could have consequences for all of the Outer Planes. I wonder if the physical stability or survival of the Planes would be threatened, in a structural way.

I think it might be better for the Lady to be displaced/exiled/disappeared than clearly killed off; you'd always have the option to return Her to power later if you wished to.

As for how...

The Lady's more powerful than a deity (she can bar greater Powers from her city with ease). I find myself thinking that something about the nature of Sigil has its own set of metaphysical laws, unique anywhere in the multiverse -- and so far, only the Lady of Pain knows the secret. Perhaps in your campaign, someone else has figured out the dark of it and learned how to exploit it, without getting mazed or flayed in the process. (Or perhaps the person WAS mazed but found out how to escape...)

My own train of thought is leading me to an evil, misguided or simply renegade Guvner. Perhaps he went with the theory that all planes have their own metaphysical laws, and that Sigil acts as a unique plane/demiplane with its own set of laws. The one who fully understands the 'physics' of Sigil, wins. Unfortunately, either the baatezu got ahold of him, or (if he was LE) he gave that knowledge to them himself.

Now, normally, I'd never recommend that the Lady of Pain be overthrown -- Her existence is one of the cornerstones of the Planescape setting. But if you want to in your campaign, do it. Laughing out loud

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Duckluck's picture
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How to destroy Sigil

If either of you have Faction War, I'd recomend thumbing through it. Aside from the war itself, the plot revolves around an ancient wizard who was so powerful he was actually able to stand against the Lady of Pain and not get Flayed (he still got imprisoned though), and Rowan Darwood's attempt to rescue the man from his prison. Rowan wound up getting mazed himself (I blaim it on his stupid name, but that's just me) but perhaps the Baatezu have found a new way to release the old wizard.

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How to destroy Sigil

According to Planes of Law, the baatezu in Dis are building an artificial replica of Sigil in order to study how the portals work and try to reproduce it.

Instead of killing the Lady of Pain, why not just say that their project has succeeded? They don't need to kill the Lady because they've got their own Sigil, just as useful as the first one.

There are other clusters of portals they could use that wouldn't require them to use the City of Doors. It's hardly the only group of portals in the multiverse.

As for getting rid of the Lady of Pain, there are any number of ways. Perhaps her real goal is to escape Sigil, and she finally manages it. Maybe Aoskar is brought back to life and kills her. Maybe she has some sort of superior or predecessor (or a group of cosmic auditors a la Terry Pratchett's Reaper Man) who decides she's no longer fulfilling her duties in the way she was intended to, and destroys her/fires her. Maybe Rowan Darkwood kills her with the Sigil Spell. Maybe Tenebrous kills her with the Last Word. Maybe Vecna destroys her. Maybe she falls into despair and kills herself. Maybe someone forces her to experience all the pain she caused, and this destroys her or destroys her mind. Maybe the dabus rebel.

Arytiss's picture
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How to destroy Sigil

Perhaps the Baatzu got around to taking control of Union, the Merchane demiplane from the ELH and far easier to take control of than Sigil. If I recall correctly it has almost as many portals and only a few epic level town guards.

A couple of legions of Baatzu should be able to take it easily enough.

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How to destroy Sigil

As I recall that Sigil-Model has it's own model of the Lady as well - what if, by virtue of modeling the real Sigil so closely, it has begun to actually produce portals approximate to the real Sigil as well simply by hitching a ride on the belief of Sigil... There may be an overlap between the two as the model starts picking up the same traits as the original. That can leave your PCs (his PCs really) an option to start breaking the system down later as well, and give the baatazu their own personal Sigil in Baator.

Vaevictis Asmadi's picture
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How to destroy Sigil

Nobody knows why the Lady is so powerful, right? Maybe in your campaign, she's only that powerful as long as she stays in Sigil. She figured out the dark of controlling its metaphysics, but outside of it she's just some person. If somebody else figures out what she's figured out, they could go up against her, inside Sigil, on equal footing. The battle would probably wipe out half of the life in the city, but one of the two would be defeated and forced out of the city.

If worship was going to make her explode though, I think it would have to be sincere worship with honest belief. Worshiping her expressly to kill her doesn't sound sincere to me.

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How to destroy Sigil

Belief has power. It's one of the cornerstones of the entire Planescape setting. The Lady is powerful, yes, but what if it's only because everyone believes it? The citizens of Sigil believe that She is powerful because the cage is safer with Her at the helm. Her enemies believe She is powerful because they have seen the flayed bodies, and heard the tales of the mazes, and they fear. Even the Gods believe that She is powerful because they know the tale of Aoskar and they feel the pain and antipathy from Sigil's portals. Everyone who knows of the Lady knows of Her as a thing of power, whether they like Her or not. Even those who would scheme against Her believe that they must be very careful in their work because to be discovered is to face Her power.

Now, if that all-pervasive belief can somehow be weakened, then perhaps the Lady herself would be less powerful. People would witness this weakness and word of it would spread. Doubt enters the equation. Eventually the Lady is mocked in the streets or defied by the masses, and She can do nothing. Worse still, eventually people might stop thinking of Her at all. She is not a concern. And that is when She might leave, or cease to be, or even cease to have been.

Belief is what the Planes revolve around. I think that in the right circumstances even the Lady might not be immune to that. . .

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How to destroy Sigil

Personally, I think the best thing to play up is that the Lady's motives are next to unknown. Come up with some backstory that's true for your campaign. (THe lady's a signer that's stuck in her own subconcious after dwelling too much on it, and people soon started travelling into it, ect.) Using this motivation, come up with an excuse for why she would *want* the baatezu to conquer sigil. Perhaps they finally allow her freedom from the cage. You don't have to kill her. The best way to deal with the lady has always been giving her what she wants, which is in turn what the DM wants.

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How to destroy Sigil

Basically, I agree with Sucros.

So maybe… she just does nothing about it. At all. No razor storms, no portal closures, no dramatic appearance. No appearances at all, in fact. She seems to do absolutely nothing to prevent the Baatezu “invasion” of her realm. Keep her motives and off-screen actions totally obscure, after all there’s no way the PC’s can check, right?

That preserves Her Serenity’s mystique and seeming omnipotence while still getting the result on the streets you want, and means you don’t have to ‘bring her back’ afterwards to rebalance things. If anyone questions why she seemingly isn’t doing anything (and many Sigilites surely would) just don’t explain. The Lady has always been elusive and enigmatic, beyond simple motives and easy understanding. It wouldn’t be the first time she abstained from immediate action either (I seem to remember she let loads of people worship her - for a bit - during the ‘Trolan Heresy’ of Harbinger House for example).

Of course Baatezu propaganda would shout loudly about their “destruction of the bladed dictator” and how they’ve got the Law on their side (the Guvnor factor, as described above), but that's for the characters to believe or not. Her Serenity was always a deus ex machina for the setting, so why bother making life complicated for yourself by showing a concrete reason. She does what she does; she’s the Lady of Pain.

She can step in to back the heroes up/save the day at the adventures climax with overwhelming force (again, like Harbinger House), which will - coincidentally - be the moment when all the pieces (like our treacherous Guvnor/pit fiend finally coming to the city) are in the right place for a decisive strike.

On the other hand, you could solve the problem this way...

'ripvanwormer' wrote:
According to Planes of Law, the baatezu in Dis are building an artificial replica of Sigil in order to study how the portals work and try to reproduce it.

Instead of killing the Lady of Pain, why not just say that their project has succeeded? They don't need to kill the Lady because they've got their own Sigil, just as useful as the first one


Here’s a neat way of avoiding the problem of killing Her entirely: The Lady of Pain does nothing… because the PCs aren’t really in Sigil. The Baatezu “Sigil2” project is up and running: An exact duplicate of the Cage, complete with simulacra/doppelgangers/polymorphed fiendish actors in the place of major NPCs. The party thinks that their portal has taken them to the Cage, but in fact they’ve entered the simulation – either ‘accidentally’ (or at least by forces unknown to the Baatezu; maybe the Lady herself, who can do such portal tricks) or maybe deliberately as part of the Baatezu testing procedure.

The whole thing is in fact a dry run for the real event as in - geek trivia moment coming up - Doctor Who and the Android Invasion (look it up & all will become clear).

This way the whole plot unfolds exactly as you want it to, but carefully scripted by the Pit Fiends overseeing it all. PCs can notice the occasional oddity: A building doesn’t look quite right, an NPC knows or doesn’t know them when they should, they spy a couple of devils ‘fixing’ a broken Dabus or shifting the scenery at night, etc. Anyone familiar with the movie Dark City will also get the general idea.

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How to destroy Sigil

This site might be interesting to you. It describes a setting in which Sigil fell to the Blood War millennia ago. One of the most imaginative ideas I found in there is that upon the fall of Sigil, the Lady's shadow splintered and can now be found as broken pieces.

In my campaign, though, the Lady of Pain would never be overwhelmed by a simple preponderance of Blood War soldiers. She can block the army from entering the Cage, she can Maze the whole lot of them. I envision a battalion taking to the streets, only to find that they're already in a Maze. They can do anything they want to lay waste to the Lady, but anything they can throw at her will not be enough. No one ever describes what happens when you try to attack the Lady of Pain, but I imagine her shadow is her weapon and her protection. It would never be anything as flashy as a globe of force or impenetrable skin. The Lady is all about being untouchable and completely removed from reality as we understand it. No arrow flies true against her and nothing can penetrate her shadow. Her shadow would swing around in any direction, lengthen and expand at will, and simply engulf the entire devil force in a storm of carnage.

I actually think the Sigil2 idea is really interesting. What if the PCs found themselves there accidentally, before the city's portals were working, and had to figure out what was going on while hiding from baatezu who might discover that they're not simulacra. Eventually, they figure the plot out, and determine that Sigil2 is a simulation of a real attempted assault on Sigil, and they have to discover what the baatezu plan to do and then stop it before it happens for real.

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How to destroy Sigil

I agree with Armoury99. It seems like she'd do nothing at all, just to see what'd happen. Then kill the entire force overnight. The Dark City idea is cool too.

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