Home Brew Changes

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Palomides's picture
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Home Brew Changes

A general question...

Despite the generally high quality of Planescape products, not everything can please every DM's campaing needs. So my question is
What changes have you made Planescape from which that you've got the most value?

I'm not interested in minor things like "I changed this person's alignment from CG to CN" (unless that had major ramifications). I'm curious about bigger changes or even ideas that you might not have actually implemented

E.g. Maybe you don't have a Lady of Pain or maybe you have her working on a specific agenda instead of working in mystery
Maybe you have a major war between planes (aside from the Blood War) or a major war between or within pantheons
Maybe you've downplayed or increased the influence of the factions.

But I'd also like to hear what gain you got out of your changes. (E.g. a war between pantheon added adventure hooks for espionage or treaty-making or it alllowed for some sub-plots where agents of the Blood War were covertly backing different facitons)

Alternatively, what changes have you made to official products that you felt improved upon them?
[P.S. largely ignoring "The Faction War" is sort of a given]

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Re: Home Brew Changes

It's a pretty minor thing, and isn't restricted to just Planescape, but I cannot envision a half-outsider, hybrid fiend, planetouched, etc. being born to a mother with an opposing alignment component. The embryo/fetus has to be nurtured by spiritual energies as well as nutrients. For full-blooded fiends borne asexually *e.g. from petitioners or spontaneously borne of the plane*, these spiritual energies come from the plane itself, whereas in sexual reproduction, they come primarily from the mother. So the half-baatezu, half-tanar'ri villainess in Bastion of Broken Souls I just don't see as being a possibility outside of a Miracle or Wish, and the suggestion in the BoVD that tieflings and half-fiends are often the result of rape seems unlikely except in the case of not-fully-willing cultists (such as one of the drow NPCs on Wizards website). Attacking a random mortal woman would be a waste of time compared to attacking a cultist or finding an informed, consenting woman *if she's willing to sleep with a fiend, then that's a guarantee that she's fairly evil.*
I also don't ascribe to the idea that Uranus was literally castrated since I view the protogenoi as having been elemental beings rather than beings of flesh.
I know there are other Planescape-specific things that I don't recall.

Eldan's picture
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Re: Home Brew Changes

Mostly minor things, really, but a few of the larger ones:

The River Oceanus flows from Ysgard to Lunia, to mirror the styx (I left out Arcadia, but that is connected to Lunia as well by minor waterways). Basically, I wanted the upper planes to be as well-connected as the lower planes.

I also introduced more languages, alignment languages for lawful (Logos), Chaotic (Anarchic), Good (Empyrean) and Evil (Fiendish). Still looking for better names for the chaotic and evil languages, though.

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Re: Home Brew Changes

Eldan wrote:
I also introduced more languages, alignment languages for lawful (Logos), Chaotic (Anarchic), Good (Empyrean) and Evil (Fiendish). Still looking for better names for the chaotic and evil languages, though.

Mallic or Pernician for evil? Dissos/Dissan, Dissonos/Dissonan, Tumultuan for chaos?

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Re: Home Brew Changes

Personally, I made a number of fairly big changes. For one, I like planes based on concepts as opposed to alignment so (heavily influenced by the following (http://mimir.net/mapinfinity/cordance.html)
I added several Outer Planes until I had 3 for each alignment (3x3x3 - gotta love the Rule of Threes)
This opened up a lot of places to put things that felt a little awkward (to me) under the standard system

The LG planes (for me) are more about striving for improvement and include
--K'un Lun - a misty mountain realm for the Japanese and Chinese pantheons where one strives to find harmony through meditation and being in tune with rhythm of the universe (mirroring the Cipher philosophy)
--Mount Celestia - striving for personal improvement through action
--Bytopia - the plane of invention; striving to improve the world around oneself either through invention (Dothion) or through the enterprising pioneer spirit (Shurrock)

I made the NG planes more about the "life force" and nature. They include
--Pangea - a plane of savage nature
--Elsium - a plane of healing
--Beastlands - as many standard elements of this plane got moved into my Pangea; I changed this plane to be more about the "noble savage", a person that turns away from the rules of society to live in tune with nature

For the CG planes, I focused on the theme of freedoms
--Feywilds - I split the elfin realms of Arborea off and combined them with the Seelie Court for this plane devoted to the playfully mischievious spirit. It is also the home of several trickster gods
--Olympus - What was left of Arborea focused on the personal freedoms to live life with gusto in the spirit of the over-the-top Greek myths
--Ysgard - A plane about making one's own destiny

For the LN planes, I have
--Purgatory - a plane for those who believe they follow the rules in order to maintain the structure of the universe (i.e. if the rituals aren't performed, everything will fall apart). I moved much of the Egyptian pantheon here (to correspond to the concept of Maat). I also liked the idea of Ra's solar barge flowing up this spiral realm to reach "the Heavens" each morning. I also moved the Fates/Norns here as they seemed to fit the theme of unbreakable laws needed to make the universe run
--Mechanus
--Arcadia - law applied to creating the "best" forms of governments. A place where various utopias are attempted (with mixed results)

I made the N planes about knowledge
--Xoriat (for lack of a better name) - I made this little known and seldom visited realm the home of the illithid god-brain. This plane is all about gathering and hording knowledge. The plane is a surreal, nightmarish terrain made of sponge-y membranes (some suggest that the entire plane is actually the God-Brain's brain itself)
Inspired by another thread (which I can't find) I had this as the true source and ultimate destination of the River Styx. All the memories that are taken by the Styx are brought back to the god-brain and stored with it.
--Outlands - I haven't done this yet but I plan to incorporate the ideas from this thread
/forum/wild-west-planes
to include elements of the Wild West into the Outlands
--Thoth's Realm - Thoth's Library on the Outlands is just the "gatetown" to this plane. This is the plane of shared knowledge (as opposed to Xoriat above). But there are two dangers: once there, the search for knowledge is often addictive and many sages that learn of this realm get sucked in. Also, the residents of this plane (ibis-headed men) are about sahring information regardless of the consequences (sometimes, you don't want everyone to know where Orcus' Wand is hidden) so in keeping with their neutral attitudes, they can either be allies or enemies

For the CN planes, I have
--Pandemonium - plane of chthonic knowledge and madness. This is the "well" from which gods who are willing to make self-sacrifices (e.g. Odin's hanging) can gain immense knowledge and power. Unfortunately, the plane is more likely to drive the visitor (mortal or divine) insane
--Limbo
--Discordia - a plane of discord and malcontents. The home of those who want to shake up the existing order either to keep people from being complacent or just to cheese them off. This is the home of the Greek goddes Eris and the alternative home of Loki (I moved him out of Pandemonium)
The terrain here changes to be the most inconvenient to travelers. Did you just put on parkas to deal with the cold? Well, now you're suddenly in a desert. Did you just strip down because of the heat? Well, now it's downpouring rain (these changes are seldom inherently lethal but do make for troublesome travel).
Also if you walk from point A to point B, if you turn around, you find that you might not be able to get back (directly) to point A

Under the LE planes, I made a big change that many will probably find objectionable.
The overriding theme here is imprisonment and lack of freedom. I have
--Acheron - plane of slavish devotion to fighting a pointless cause
--(This is the big one) Carceri - Since I focused more on the force that imprisons all the inmates (as opposed to the petty backstabbing of the inmates). This seemed like a better fit under the LE axis. I saw this as a sort of Mercykiller heaven
--Baator - plane of tyrrany

For NE, I focused on the theme of death and destruction of life (the opposite of the NG theme). Here I have
--Gehenna - (as discussed elsewhere) I had felt that the "standard" Gehenna was sort of a generic dumping ground of evil that didn't fit in elsewhere. I tried to focus on making it an opposite to my version of the Beastlands. In the Beastlands, one turns away from society to find oneself. So in Gehenna, I made it about sacrificing your soul in order to belong to the security of a group. Sort of a mafia/gangster mentality.
Admittedly, I have to stretch this to tie it to the "death theme" of the NE axis; but I rationalized it as the selling (or death) of one's soul to feel safe
--Grey Wastes - plane of disease and death
--Abaddon - as the opposite of the primal, unrestrained nautre of my new plane Pangea; I made this a plane of pollution and physical corruption. I had this as a major outpost of the Merkants as the environment here provides for tremendous amounts of resources to make goods for sale. However, the mucky environment is also continually trying to swallow up any foreign elements. Factories and mining sites that are built are constantly eroded by the surrounding ooze and muck (which seems to be drawn by such activity). While the process of erosion/corruption is typically slow, it is not unheard of for entire factories to be swallowed up in a matter of hours
So the Merkants build factories and drive their workers/slave at breakneack speeds to produce the maximum amount of goods in the limited amount of time that is available. A byproduct of this breakneck pace is the creation of lots of pollution (which ironically, increases the corrosive power of the surrounding elements)
This plane is also home to a lot of gods of decay and physical corruption

Finally (thank you, if you made it this far), the planes of CE are all about destruction and spiritual corruption. Here I placed
--The Abyss
--Duat - a plane of emotional and spiritual despair with elements based on the Egyptian underworld. I created this as a contrast to the upward, hopeful striving to ascend Mount Celestia. Here, one travels deeper and deeper down in hopelessness and despair
/forum/duat-egyptian-underworld
--Samsara (needs a better name) - a plane of deception and vile illusion ruled by rakshasa
/forum/ideas-needed-plane-illusions

By focusing on themes as opposed to alignments, I felt this opened up a lot more places to insert things (yes, I know the planes are infinite as standardly defined) and it also opened up new ideas for conflict (major and minor) that I hadn't considered before.
E.g. perhaps the mischevious fey of the Feywilds think that the too-serious, industrious inventors of Bytopia need to loosen up so they send a team of "gremlin" fey to do some minor sabotage. Inventors then beg the PCs for help.
Perhaps the meditative monks of K'un Lun find that several members are being led astray by false religious visions (that turn out to be illusions of the rakshasa of Samsara)
Perhaps there is a group in Olympus that feel so strongly about freedom that they think EVERYONE should be free, including the inmates of Carceri. PCs asked to stop these good, but in this case misguided, people before they cause serious damage.

I've made other less sweeping changes; but I'll spare you until a later time.

Jem
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Re: Home Brew Changes

My GM, I think, didn't quite grasp the concept of loopholes, but gamely laid down some research rules. They don't close after use, but a Guvner can only get three of them in his lifetime. So I decided that a hard limit means the three loopholes you find must say something about you. I was also under the impression that loopholes were related to a particular plane, which is incorrect, but gave the idea form.

So my djinn-descended air genasi wizard has researched the laws of three planes surrounding Air: a vacuum ability (vacuum welding; sticks metal together), a lightning ability which is actually healing (we call it Bioelectricity), and an ice ability that is a little bit like Simulacrum (an extra body, basically). The theme for all of them has been balancing his mortal and elemental heritage. His goal now is to figure out how to work all three of them simultaneously: to arrange them in the proper manner to form a "loophole" in the laws of the Multiverse big enough to inhabit, at least for a moment, in order to transcend.

Palomides's picture
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Re: Home Brew Changes

With a spare body, electricity/life force and welding; it sounds like you've got a Frankenstien monster in the works.

Hyena of Ice's picture
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Re: Home Brew Changes

I also introduced more languages, alignment languages for lawful (Logos), Chaotic (Anarchic), Good (Empyrean) and Evil (Fiendish). Still looking for better names for the chaotic and evil languages, though.
Ah, that's right, so did I. The languages I introduced are:

Anarchic- chaotic planes
Axiomatic- lawful planes
Entropian- Negative energy plane
Vivacian- Positive energy plane
Fiendish- opposite of Celestial
Arborean- CG planes
Caelian- LG planes
By these rules, Axiomatic is what the Modron and Inevitables speak *though the Modrons also have their separate language that is still used for mathmatic and esoteric purposes*, while the Slaadi and Githyanki *or was it githzerai? I can never remember which is which* speak Anarchic. Eladrin now speak Arborean, while Archons speak Caelian. The yugoloths and nighthags of course speak fiendish. The Lumi of course now speak Vivacian as their default language.
I may also give a unique language to creatures of the ethereal, but not to creatures of the Astral.

In addition, I added the rule of Creole languages. A creole is a mixture between two or more languages. This is used primarily on the Paraelemental and Quasielemental Planes, and in order to speak a creole language, a speaker must be proficient in both parent languages. For instance, the official language of Paraelemental Ice is Glacian-- a creole between auran and aquan. The official language of Quasielemental Lightning is Fulguran-- a creole between auran and vivacian.
Thus far the creole language rule only applies to the inner planes.

I'm also working on adapting the 2E Inner Planes elemental rules to 3x, but this is difficult. Inner Planes basically stated that elementals are more intelligent when on their home plane *or one adjacent to it*, but lose intelligence *to the default level shown in the 2E non Planescape monster books*. Going by the Planescape monstrous compendiums, an elemental can have up to double the normal intelligence on its home plane *non-PS books list elemental intelligence as 7, while PS monster books list it as varying from 7 to 14).
In the home rules I intend to implement *which will eventually be posted here*, this would be combined with a "job system" for elementals that gives them innate spell-like abilities and ability score arrays *alternate ones from normal and elite*, which could be used for elemental NPCs instead of class levels *most of the classes as written don't really fit elementals all that well, and many are largely redundant-- such as a druid's venom immunity*. My idea thus far is to give them 3 spell-like abilities of 0-3rd level, though it's possible some spell-like abilities from higher levels may be needed. The main classes I've thought up so far would be smithy/artisan, warlord, healer, and scholar. With a few exceptions *mainly the warlord and healer*, the spell-like abilities would be more of the utility and roleplaying type-- having to do with item creation and divination *another of my houserules is that mephits, genies, and elementals can use *element* shape spells to create items from special materials-- for instance, ice mephits/paraelementals/qorrash genies can use Ice Shape to make things from any type of eternal ice-- including encasing a faceted brightice gem in a thin layer of clear eternal ice. For most types of eternal ice, Ice Shape + skill ranks of Craft are needed to make any fine items-- on Paraelemental Ice it's nigh impossible to use fire or traditional forges, anyway, so indigenous creatures would also use this ability to forge items of blue ice, while glacier dwarves probably build settlements near or inside elemental bubbles-- particularly near the ultra-rare fire and magma bubbles.*

I also made it so that too-good-to-be-true-spells (mainly Attune Form and Planar Tolerance) are non-mortal NPC, only-- the players cannot learn them, but some of their cohorts can. The cohort has to be indigenous to an outer, inner, or transitive plane, however, and of the outsider or elemental type. Attune Form *or some variation* in particular would be a perfect spell for planar guides, along with the Planar Sheperd class from Faiths of Eberron (I posted some rules in the Inner Planes topic to reduce their brokenness, but nonetheless it might be best to make them a monstrous PrC or something)

In addition, I prefer to use the 2E Planescape rules as opposed to the 3x Manual of the Planes rules for magic on the planes-- thus there are 6 instead of 3-4 default effects on spells-- doubled, enhanced, no change, diminished, blocked, and "see text". I might allow for a very high Spellcraft check for "blocked", but it'll certainly be higher than 20 *probably more like 30 or 35-- or maybe 20 + (spell/psionic/maneuver level x2) +1*, but generally one will need a spell, psy, or power key *power keys apply to all supernatural abilities derived from divine power, including spells, psionics, and maneuvers.*

I've also homebrewed all manner of powerful rules when it comes to Cryonax and Frigidora-- ones that wouldn't be available to PCs. Her divine tattooes don't even require a feat, though I may change that eventually. Of course, the bond between these two is unlikely to be found among other archomentals and their champions due to how submissive they are on Frigidora's side-- the powers she and Cryonax possess over one another costs Frigidora her privacy *including private thought* and, if Cryonax so chooses, her free will. The upside is that they share a powerful telepathic link and Cryonax can easily teleport Frigidora out of danger. While Asgeroth may well be loyal (as Dragon 347 states), he is nowhere near the fanatic or submissive that Frigidora is-- in Frigidora's mind, her entire existence revolves around serving her master, a result of a combination of factors, including her lawful alignment *thus feelings of obligation because Cryonax gave her a chance at life*, her love *combination love for a father, reverent love of a fanatical priestess for her god, platonic love, and sexual love*, and the incredible level of indoctrination she has received since the day she learned to speak *not many minions of the evil archomentals begin such an intense level of indoctrination from birth. The Efreet come close, but not many, if any efreet receive a professional education and indoctrination from Imix's own elite servants.*
One of the homebrew rules I made (tailored for the archomentals using the Planewalker Denizens of the Inner Planes rules) was in regards to knowledge skills. Knowledge: Planes can do nearly everything any other knowledge skill can, but it only applies to the planes. This includes using the skill for monster lore normally assigned to another skill, so long as the creature in question is a common or uncommon inhabitant of the planes (e.g. chromatic dragons, giants, white puddings, unicorns, etc.) The only downside is that the DC is about 5 points higher for uncommon creatures. All Outer, Inner, and Transitive planar outsiders and elementals can use this rule. They still require the normal knowledge skill for anything pertaining to the Prime.

Though not specifically Planescape, I also intend to write up rules for using coldflow *coldfire from Frostburn* as a power component. (I've done quite a bit of work on coldflow, both rule-wise and esp. fluff-wise.)

ripvanwormer's picture
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Re: Home Brew Changes

For me, it's mostly about adding unofficial planes. I like a number of the planes from Malhavoc Press's sourcebook Beyond Countless Doorways, and I've become convinced that the Feywild and Shadowfell are good additions to the cosmology.

The alternate material planes - including alternate timelines where things happened differently, parallel universes where people have different alignments or genders, and cosmologies completely alien to the Great Wheel - are important to me, though Planescape mostly sidelined that concept.

I've always been fascinated by the Mimir's Beyond the Planes article, though the Ordial Plane is only interesting to me as a mystery, a hint that there's more to the planar structure than even the wisest sages understand.

My view of the Far Realm is more expansive than the official one, with certain areas that are more comprehensible than others, so that there are "themed" regions analogous in some ways to Abyssal layers. And I've invented a lot of Abyssal layers. I see Sigil as a place where Far Realm entities can visit and even trade without necessarily being inimical to standard life.

Palomides's picture
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Re: Home Brew Changes

I'm a bit curious about your comments VanWormer. As you can read above, I'm also a fan a new planes/demiplanes/realms/etc. including a few that have a bit more surreal elements to them (my philosophy is that the players should never feel that they completely understand how things work on the planes). So in the broad sense of finding a home for any crazy idea we have, I think we are in agreement.

For myself, I always have three dimensions in each of the primary planes. (Then I pepper in floating demiplanes that I think are neat ideas but don't fit in with the "formally structured" arrangement of the planes)
For the Inner Planes; there is the Pos/Neg axis, there is a Density axis (my term for the Earth/Air axis) and there is a Molecular Energy axis (my term for the Water(and Ice) / Fire axis)
Above I mentioned, that I added planes in the Outer Planes to make 27 total that correspond to 3 axes.

For the Prime, I defined one axis as Time (past to future), one axis as Probability (this allows for parallel/Slider worlds where one can play out various "What if..." scenarios like "What if orcs enslaved humanity?" or "What if Vecna wasn't betrayed?" or "What if Elminster wasn't an annoying @#$%?"). And remember that each of these parallel realities has its own timeline, so perhaps making major changes in the past just causes a PC's timeline to merge into the timeline of a parallel reality
For the Prime, I've wavered on what the third axis should be. Sometimes I think it should be a magic-rich/magic-dead axis other times I think it should be a goodness/darkness taint axis (e.g. a similar campaign world but where things have a darker almost Ravenloft-ish vibe). So far, I haven't decided

But all this is off my reason for writing. I looked at the Mimir link you included and I didn't see what had inspired you (aside from just general encouragement to "think outside the box[ed set]". It included:
-Point where the inner planes meet - did this inspire any ideas aside from a battlefield/Elemental Chaos (as that is what sprang to mind for me)? The blurb made it sound like this point had religious significance to the elementals but I wasn't sure
-Ordinal plane - as you said, you have a unique take on this; but largely a mystery
-Beyond the boundaries – sort of sounds like Temporal Prime
-Outside of nothing – I got the impression that they were going for hyperspace or a higher dimension (e.g. a resident of Flatland visiting a 3D world). Although I like planar theory, this didn't inspire much in the way of adventuring ideas for me
-Edges of space and time – I got the impression that they were sort of going for the point of origin, the moment of the Big Bang. Again, cool for thinking outside the box but it didn't suggest anything in terms of adventures

Just curious about some details of your unique planes (at least a few of the ones of which you are most proud)

I haven't read Beyond Countless Doorways yet so that's probably the majority of what I'm failing to grasp. Looking on-line (at http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/10/10853.phtml), I see that this book includes:
*Avidarel - A dark cold plane where the stars and sun have died. Haunted by incorporeal undead and more benevolent beings called Memories of Starlight. What remains of the sun is quite mineral rich, and even contains the well-hidden key to restoring life to the entire plane.
[OK, I see a short-term motive to visit and a high-level goal to revive the plane - if constant attacks from ghosts,etc. doesn't become overkill, I could see some potential here.]

*The Lizard Kingdoms - A world of dinosaurs, where the main intelligent species are giant lizard men. Humans and dwarves do exist here, but are about half their usual size, and are seen by the lizard men as vermin.
[Personally, I have parallel realities with similar set-ups. "What if the dinosaurs never died off?"]

*The Mountains of the Five Winds - A plane that has largely fallen under the influence of an invading cloud of chaos. Beneath the cloud, both the people and the land are warped by its effects. Above the cloud are five cities unaffected by the cloud, now sworn to the service of law.
[Seems like a "Points of Light" concept defined by more definite philosophies and causes (maybe some reversed-Elric inspriation). Potentially interesting]

*The Ten Courts of Hell - A bureaucratic version of Hell, which presents the picture, or at least the illusion, of devils punishing the guilty. This plane introduces several new fiends, and has a slightly eastern rather than western feel.
[Sort of reminds me of a layer of the Abyss - I forget which one - that has a mock legal court; although the Eastern influence probably makes this more unique]

*Tavaerel - A world where magic is fading, magic-users are hunted down, and magical creatures of all kinds are almost extinct. The virtual extinction of dragons is closely connected with the fading of magic.

*Yragon - A jungle world dominated by intelligent ape-like creatures called Grahlus. These Grahlus raid other planes in order to capture slaves.
[These last two don't seem to justify whole planes to themselves (as I think planets would work just fine); but some interesting set-ups for adventures]

Again, I'm curious how you ran with these

ripvanwormer's picture
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Re: Home Brew Changes

That's a bit more writing and thinking than I'd planned to do for a quick post. Some of the worlds/planes in that book became spelljammer planets (rather than full planes). The Ten Courts of Hell were split up among the layers of Baator and elsewhere, branching off from the Palace of Judgment in the Outlands.

The First Court probably actually exists within the Outlands' Palace of Judgment - it's just the part where sinners are sent before being shipped off plane.

The Second Court, the court of slave breakers, exists somewhere on the River Styx, probably in Avernus or on a cube in Avalas. The fact that its ruler is half slaad would make Avalas more likely - Avernus is a more lawful plane than Baator, but it's also more accepting of foreign mercenaries.

The Third Court would be in Avernus, probably also on the Styx, where the baatezu come to buy agricultural products from it. It could also be in Stygia, since it fits in some ways with Set's realm.

The Fourth Court, known for its academies of sorcery, I'd put in the City of Dis so that many fiendish creatures could benefit from it. The Fourth Court is also the home of many rakshasas, so there is probably a lot of traffic from the rakshasa cubes of Acheron.

The fifth through ninth courts are noted as constantly plotting to undermine one another and depose their respective rulers and steal their prisoners. As such, their location is somewhat in flux: they could slide to other layers or planes depending on whose plans are successful.

A place of fire and torture, the Fifth Court is probably in Phlegethos.

The Sixth Court, filled with serpents and yuan-ti, might actually be in the Abyss, perhaps in Merrshaulk's layer of Smaragd. It could be in Minauros, but its weather wouldn't be as sunny and pleasant as it's made out to be. Conceivably, it shifts between the two over the eons.

The Seventh Court I would put in Baator's seventh layer, which also has a fallen celestial ruler obsessed with perfection. In fact, Triel and the Bronze Bell King might even be one and the same. If they're not the same, Triel would still appreciate having the Bronze Bell King within his domain. One adventure hook that occured to me was having Autochon the Bellringer hire the PCs to venture to the Seventh Court of Hell to find a way to end his curse, since the Bronze Bell King is constantly experimenting with a magical bell, attempting to make perfect tones. If anyone can heal the curse of Sigil's Demon of the Bells, it's him. The tsnng might also be interested in the layer, volunteering to help the Bronze Bell King with his project or being kidnapped by him for that reason.

The Eighth Court, a realm of utter cold, closely resembles Baator's eighth layer of Caina. That's where it belongs, and the rivalry between the Bronze Bell King and the Snow King might closely resemble the rivalry between Triel and Mephistopheles.

The Ninth Court, a realm of utter darkness, would fit in one of Nessus' trenches.

The Tenth Court is a mysterious place where no one has entered and returned, so it isn't really important where it is - probably in a deeper pit of Nessus, though, or in a completely unexpected place like Mechanus, near Shang-Ti's realm. The Eleventh Court is just a rumor, but it's likely in one of the upper planes, particularly Mount Celestia, probably near or in Kuan-Yin's realm.

The most cosmologically interesting/challenging plane in the book is Curonost, which is defined as the place where angels go when they die. It's a place of grim despair as well as hidden knowledge, and it really makes little sense in the context of the Great Wheel - but it's cool.

And really, the Mimir link is more about thinking outside the box than anything specific - a reminder that there are weird places out there that don't fit into conventional understandings of the planes. Some of the ideas there could end up as brief 'WTF' encounters, or seeds for something more. I haven't, honestly, taken the time to really brainstorm on them, but I wanted to point them out as examples of how the standard Great Wheel cosmology could be stretched and mutated.

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Re: Home Brew Changes

So, small things first:
Starting from the 2ed version of the Planescape cosmology, I made a few minor planar rearrangements for sake of my own internal logic that mostly had no plot impact.

Ooze rather than Steam is now between Positive and Water - the water becomes charged with life energy, until every bit of water is filled with life.

Ice rather than Ooze is now between Water and Earth - the water becomes thicker, colder, and filled with slush, until it forms into ice. Ice has a surface, with Water being in the direction of an infinite ocean on one side, and Earth being in the direction of deep down within the ice.

Steam rather than Ice is now between Air and Water, and appears as a giant cloudbank that becomes denser with approach.

Big things:
I ran the campaign in another system (modified version of the 7th Sea rules), which meant that I redefined a lot of D&D-isms away. Generally mortals could not actually become as strong as many creatures - even the best human in the setting loses when trying to arm-wrestle a titan. The PCs still defeated such threats, but it was usually more trickery-based, which is what I was going for.

I stripped out almost all commonplace magical items and made two categories: folk charms and 'dweomercraft'. Dweomercraft items are basically minor artifacts - they're the work of powerful mages or beings that sacrificed permanently of themselves in a major fashion to create them. Mechanically, you could buy access to a dweomercraft item at character creation by expending a significant portion of your starting XP. Examples: the Resounding Horn of Eogthath, which if played skillfully enough can cause cities to crumble; the Burning Wheel of Nezha (a chinese demigod) that can change size, fly, and spit fire.

Folkcharms on the other hand are things like the little charms you get in Planescape: Torment. A bit of colored string tied into a knot that if you and another untie, you know where the other one is and their condition for a day; a candle whose wick is made from the hair of a horse that was ridden from one spot of moonlight to another all night during a full moon without entering shade, that causes you to speed up for a brief time; a series of fingerbones that you hang on the hilt of your weapon that each let you make one true strike against a ghost. These were all limited use items, and could be made by anyone with the knowledge of their trick. There were also a number of exotic planar goods available - non-magical, but potent simply because of what they were. Things like the egg of a sympathetic, which causes you to go up one planar layer when you eat it.

(As part of this item revision I also reworked the economy and divided most item prices by a factor from 10 to 50, so one gold piece was a big deal).

I reworked magic significantly, making genasi capable of controlling their element in a far more freeform way that could be invested in to increase its potency. As a result a lot of players played genasi - we had an Air, Radiance, Ice, Earth, and Mineral genasi across two campaigns. Arcane magic became more specific, and could be used as often as desired. Divine magic was drastically reconfigured into a set of rituals (each taking significant time) and new ways to expend 'belief dice' to temporarily gain aspects of the deity's strength.

I think broadly speaking that these changes made the game feel a bit more fairy tale, more about exploring the unknown and interacting with things using story logic. Its hard to say though since the entire system was different and had a very different feel altogether.

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Re: Home Brew Changes

That sounds interesting. I don't know 7th Sea but I definitely approve of PCs focusing on clever play as opposed to going through an adventure like it was a video game with power-ups (a recurring problem with my players)

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Re: Home Brew Changes

For me, it's mostly about adding unofficial planes. I like a number of the planes from Malhavoc Press's sourcebook Beyond Countless Doorways, and I've become convinced that the Feywild and Shadowfell are good additions to the cosmology.
The alternate material planes - including alternate timelines where things happened differently, parallel universes where people have different alignments or genders, and cosmologies completely alien to the Great Wheel - are important to me, though Planescape mostly sidelined that concept.

Thankfully-- it opens up too great a can of worms.
I just made most of the Malhavoc Press planes Demiplanes. For instance, I decided that there are demiplanes within the Dream Curtains including Dal Quor and The Shallows (IIRC Ravenloft is surrounded by dream curtains as well)
The "alternate material plane" thing became too confusing (and mostly obsolete) once Spelljammer came along.
My view of the Farrealm is that it's an entire separate cosmology using the "Cluster Cosmology" from MotP. The Amoebic Sea is just one such plane, along with the one that the Luminas (from Violet Dawn) belong to. This allows exponentially more innovation on the part of the DM since now he is no longer restricted to "the Far Realm consists of an amboebic sea, with many layers like the abyss. Each one being a different layer of an ooze-like ocean" like we find in the canon.
Another major facet is the timeline which I'm still working on-- for the most part I never intended for it to be information that the players would ever glean-- it's solely a DM's aid to mark historic points and thus motives and adventure seeds.

Major plot points covered by the timeline thus far include:

--the rise and fall of the aboleth empires (essentially, it's like the history of Egypt-- more than one empire and more than one collapse, but the final collapse was ultimately brought about when the Aboleth created the amniote egg, thus creating the first creatures able to escape their influence into the interior of Pangaea, and of course, being amniotes, they had minds much like ours-- meaning they discovered divine magic and psionics.)

--Permian-Triassic extinction analogue (the buildup was a result of several factors, but the extinction event was caused when Imix went nuts and annexed most of magma and smoke in retaliation for Brista Pel's murder. For some reason, rather than causing magma and smoke to disappear, they and adjacent planes were simply pushed over so that Air, Water, and Ice were consumed.)
I also added some interesting drama between Imix and Zaaman Rul that explains their intense hatred of one another-- despite everything, neither one ORIGINALLY had it in them to kill the other. This despite that Zaaman Rul opposed Imix, and despite all the oppression and cruelty Zaaman Rul witnessed first hand against his own people by his father-- despite being a victim of Imix's physical abuse and ultimately exiled for failure of alignment change under Imix's evil aura and training. It wasn't until Zaaman Rul was erroneously informed (and convinced) that Imix was Brista Pel's murderer that things got violent, and his intent to kill (not to mention the offensiveness of his false accusation) was more than even Imix could tolerate from his own son (not to mention that half the reason Imix had no interest in killing Zaaman Rul before was as much a middle finger as it was out of sentiment-- Imix before that point viewed Zaaman Rul as far too much of a weak-kneed, sentimental goody-goody to ever be a direct physical threat. Sure, he actively defied Imix, killed his loyal minions, and sabotaged his plans, but there was a huge difference between a disobedient child doing that and a disobedient child actually attempting patricide. The story is also meant to suggest that despite being good-aligned, part of Zaaman Rul's animosity towards Imix is out of bitterness of his father's rejection-- the recent war between them in the canon is more proof of this-- according to Dragons 347 and 353, Imix was nowhere to be found, and he has instead entrusted his champion Asgeroth to death with his son-- an act that could be seen as one of fatherly rejection-- that his own son is unworthy to die by his hand. Sentimentality on Imix's end may play a minor role, as well)

--The Protogenoi and the Draeden (the protogenoi are from Greek myth, although the term, translating as "first generation", is generic enough for all pantheons. The protogenoi were quasi to greater powers born near the beginning of the creation cycle, and include Ptah, Gaea, and the Elemental Lords. The Draeden are from the end of the previous creation cycle, and the two groups went to war with one another at a certain point.)

--The prior to current inner planar cosmology (I have not worked all the bugs out of this one either-- I still do not know what all caused it realign in the way that it did, except that the initial causative factor was clearly the result of the positive and negative energy planes becoming coterminous with the elemental planes, because Gygax's first draft inner cosmology in which the whole thing is based off of had the energy and elemental planes separate much in the way that the outer planes are.
I do not know, however, why Elemental Fire and Elemental Earth switched places.)

--The KT event analogue, and its tie ins with the Battle of Pesh

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Re: Home Brew Changes

OK, inspired by the references to the Protogenoi above, I have a general question concerning how people deal with divine beings

Do you use them like uber-powerful NPCs that the PCs could actually meet (although not often)? Do you view the avatars as just the "right-hand men" of these gods?
Or do you keep the gods as unseen forces that act through the planes with the avatars serving as the only "physical embodiment" of the gods that a person might encounter?
Or do you have something in-between or unique?

How do you deal with weakened or deposed gods? E.g. if gods are forces without concrete bodies, are the deposed gods also bodiless entities? Or does their divine presense contract to reside within the body of an avatar (thus you might be able to physically imprison a deposed god)?

What do you feel a god would need to accomplish to break free from Carceri or to regain pre-eminence as a "true" god? Just get enough worshippers? Or do you feel something additional is needed?

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Re: Home Brew Changes

OK, inspired by the references to the Protogenoi above, I have a general question concerning how people deal with divine beings
Do you use them like uber-powerful NPCs that the PCs could actually meet (although not often)? Do you view the avatars as just the "right-hand men" of these gods?

I mostly use avatars, proxies, etc, yes. The majority of the protogenoi are either dead or have passed on to some other incarnation, anyway (the Elemental Lords, Gaea, Erebus, and Nyx are among the few remaining protogenoi that have not been killed or evolved into another deity. I cannot say that for certain in regards to Selune, Chauntea, and Shar, even though all three are Protogenai *oh, if you're confused, protogenai is merely the feminine form of protogenoi*). If archfiends and archomentals can have aspects, then I see no reason why protogenoi and far-realm powers with divine levels would not have avatars and proxies just like the powers referred to as gods/deities.

What do you feel a god would need to accomplish to break free from Carceri or to regain pre-eminence as a "true" god?
There is more than one method of attaining apotheosis, and most methods are described in the 3E Deities & Demigods-- gain enough worshippers, slay a divine being, slay enough quasidivine beings, or absorb the divine powers of divine/quasidivine beings. As for breaking free from Carceri, it would take a lot more if the being was truly imprisoned there-- most often an artifact or the absorption of a deity/aspect not subject to Carceri's imprisonment.

How do you deal with weakened or deposed gods? E.g. if gods are forces without concrete bodies, are the deposed gods also bodiless entities?
Deposed deities usually end up physically on the Astral, including their deposed aspects. They may also end up as vestiges, but there has to be some remnant of their soul and/or divine spark for this to occur. Some deities end up physically on a prime world, outer plane, etc. Examples include the protogenos Tartarus *though there is dispute over whether he is truly dead, a vestige, or merely asleep*, Ulutiu *Ulutiu initially went into slumber on Faerun, but he is now on the Astral because he has slumbered for so long that he is slowly dying*, and Hleid *whose divine essence was sundered into pieces-- each becoming a rimefire eidolon, with the hope that a powerful rimefire witch will absorb the shards and become the new Hleid*

Also, just so you know, I would not mark the Ribcage or Khin-Oin as coming from protogenoi, as, if we go by the Greek etc. interpretations, they would be elemental beings rather than beings of flesh. I would also envison Chauntea, Selune, and Shar as being this way, even though I do not think they are depicted as such in Faiths & Pantheons and Faiths & Avatars *that is to say, Chauntea would resemble an earth elemental while Shar would be a mass of amorphous blackness in the shape of a humanoid woman.* The Faerunian sun god which predated Amaunator would also have been a Protogenos resembling a fire elemental.

You may ask "why elementals?", well the answer is that the Greek protogenoi are mostly abstractions rather than (or in addition to) anthromoporphic beings. Most of the Greek protogenoi are water bodies, light, mountains, etc. personified-- Uranus, Nyx, and Gaea rank among the more anthropomorphized protogenoi. Though also anthropomorphic, the lunar, solar, and earth deities of Abeir Toril and Dragonlance also follow this rule, hence why I placed them among the Protogenoi.

Jem
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Re: Home Brew Changes

Palomides wrote:
I have a general question concerning how people deal with divine beings

Do you use them like uber-powerful NPCs that the PCs could actually meet (although not often)?

In my most recent Planescape game, the players never encountered a god directly. They met a Titan on Carceri -- Themis -- who was very... big. I felt like I should have made the experience more mystical.

Quote:
What do you feel a god would need to accomplish to break free from Carceri or to regain pre-eminence as a "true" god? Just get enough worshippers? Or do you feel something additional is needed?

A god trapped in Carceri would be a true god, although I would limit their manifestations off-plane -- probably they could not manifest avatars or see off-plane, having to rely on minions and intelligence networks.

Since the general rule is "you must be more powerful than your jailors," then expanding your worship base sufficiently to overpower your jailor might do the trick, but that's very difficult when your activities are restricted. The most reliable method I can think of for getting out of Carceri once imprisoned there? Petition for release. Ask your jailor to be let go. Employ intermediaries, and purchase or persuade your way to freedom. If you were imprisoned by an evil entity, trick it into freeing you willingly. If you were imprisoned for good purposes, seek redemption and request parole. If you were imprisoned under law, find the sentencing guidelines or arrange for a finite term to begin with. Catch a chaotic jailor in the right mood.

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Re: Home Brew Changes

I tend to have gods be uber-powerful but flawed in some particular way. For example, in one of my campaigns a PC promised herself to the Sea Dragon King of the East as a child when fleeing an arranged marriage, and later fled from his domain, stealing an artifact (the wheel of Nezha, the Dragon King's enemy) as she fled. The Dragon King was miffed but also curious as to what she would do, and especially whether or not his enemy would try to get his artifact back from her. As such, he didn't immediately go all out in force to hunt her down, but showed up every so often to make her sweat or to try to ambush Nezha whenever he was lured out by news of the young girl bearing his artifact.

One encounter with the Sea Dragon King involved a waterworld where he threatened to flood the world if Yue (the PC) would not come back with him. He manifested as a gigantic dragon radiating power and exhibiting complete control over the waters of the world. He clearly outclassed the PCs in raw power. However, enter his weakness: he was both highly prone to being oblivious while giving speeches so long as people appeared to be grovelling and listening to him, and was highly susceptible to praise.

So the PCs argued well that Yue was improving her value as his wife by journeying around making legends for herself and thwarting Nezha at every turn, and was thus heaping honors upon the Sea Dragon King. Furthermore, she was being nobly self-sacrificing by giving up the treasures of the Sea Dragon King's palace and the company of her husband in order to help bring honors to his name. Meanwhile another PC was telekinetically nabbing loose scales from the god for later use in powerful rituals and item crafting, and the Sea Dragon King did not notice a thing due to all of the praise being heaped upon him.

The party also dealt directly with Blibdolpoolp, the mad goddess of the Sahuagin. However, when they found her, they discovered that she was busy trying to escape a doom she had forseen, and that one of the party members had something she needed towards that end. And so they were able to basically get the information they needed and not be killed in exchange for giving her the thing needed to ensure her own continuance, even if the experience was manifestly unpleasant (it involved a bit of a brush with the Far Realms). Dealing with her was mostly confusing - she tended to speak in strange ways, e.g. she only spoke every third thought she had and assumed that those she was dealing with could read the other two. Her power was never really directly tested by the party.

In these cases, the party actually met directly with the deity, and not their avatar or proxy. The main thing I do to make the encounter feel significant is to give the deity a bit of alien psychology. Even former mortals, good deities, etc will look at things from a different perspective than a mortal whose life is limited and who must constantly strive to change the world (as opposed to a deity, whose smallest actions cannot help but change the world). Furthermore, deities will tend to take the long view. Getting that across helps make the gods feel different than, say, a big dragon or something. Greek-style deities are a lot easier to run than deities that are supposed to be infinitely wise, knowledgeable, perfect, etc, since they don't have to all be geniuses, they just have to be larger than life.

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Re: Home Brew Changes

My homebrew is still a WIP so far, and is mostly background info, so it's not likely to afect a campaign in the short term.

First off, I plan to start from a post-faction war 'verse.

The biggest change so far, is trying to adapt material of Paizo's Golarion to PS. Asigning the deities there to the Great Wheel, and some of the planar races. Axis could very well be the "perfect city" upon on of Mechanus' Cogs. I love the concept of the Shaitan genies, and feel they fit more in the genie theme than the dao ever did, so it's good-bye dao, hello shaitan! Also the Proteans, as exemplars of chaos, are incedibly interesting IMO, though I'm loathe to do away entirely with the Slaad. I'm thinking of making some kind of universal shift, similar to the one played in 3e of modrons>inevitables as exemplas of Law. Perhaps the Proteans are the new exemplars of Chaos, closer to the ideal of raw chaos? Slaad can continue existing, I don't think they'll be too put off by their demotion of status Smiling

Also plan on expanding both Shadow and Faerie. I plan on merging the Plane of Faeire/Seelie Court with Golarion's First World and 4e's Feywild, and the Plane of Shadow wit 4e's Shadowfell. I'm thinking of making them some kind of border planes, where positive and negative energy interact with the raw potential of the Ethereal. Where positive "leaks" into Ethereal, there lies the Feywild/First World, where the Seelie Court makes it's abode, while the Shadowfell is where Negative mixes with Ethereal, a Dark counterpart to the Feywild. In keeping the counterpart theme, I might relocate the Unseelie Court from their realm in Pandemonium. I'm still thinking how to fit the four horsement into PS, they are described as deamons ('loths) of great power, fromer suberdinates of the Oinodaemon... perhaps gone rogue since Anthraxus' beign deposed?

And I'm considering on revising some of the Pantheon organization/alignment that I feel don't match too well with what my (limited) research has uncovered. Prime offenders are the Mesopotamian gods, since by all accounts both Sumerians and Babylonians worshipped the same set of gods, the main distiction beign name (Babylonians used the Akkadian naming), and of course some shifts in rank, depending what city was the most dominant at the time. So the canon argument that the differences are exaggerated doesn't convince me. I'll likely retcon the pantheon into a unified whole, with Enki/Ea not dead.

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