Harmonium and the looting of arrestees

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Ambrus's picture
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Harmonium and the looting of arrestees

I asked this on the ENworld boards, though I'd be curious to hear opinions from Planescape aficionados here. Laughing out loud

I'm running a Planescape campaign in which the players were just attacked by a group of thugs that they'd been investigating/pursuing. Most of the PCs are law abiding and one is even a Hardhead officer. Now that they've defeated the thugs and shackled the two survivors, they intend to march them down to the PC's garrison outpost, lock them up and proceed to interrogate them.

That's all good and lawful so far right? Okay. So what might the city's civic code have to say about a suspect's possessions? In a normal D&D game, the PCs kill the bad guys and loot their stuff, but what should happen when the PCs are semi-official investigators arresting criminals? Should the arresting officer have the right to claim a share? If so, how much? What about her friends who assisted in the arrest?

Just wondering how other DMs might handle this and whether there's some kind of historical precedent for such situations. I'm not concerned with shortchanging the players; one way or another, they'll get all the equipment they need. I'd just like to hear what others believe should be the Harmonium's standard Modus Operandi in such situations.

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Harmonium and the looting of arrestees

Looting detainees doesn't sound very lawful to me. The assets of the guilty are probably siezed, but ony after they are found guilty. At least, that's how I would play the official line. Perhaps the coins of detainees can be lawfully taken to defray the costs of the patrol, but I doubt any factions would stand for their members loosing all the jink in their pockets each time a Harmonium officer decided to arrest someone. After a detainee is found guilty, perhaps the arresting officers could be given a percentage of siezed assets as an incentive to be vigilant, but most would go to the city. Maybe 1% per officer, 2% for the patrol leader. Or perhaps 10% to 50% depending on the crime and the claims of any victims could go to the arresting patrol, but once again only after the trial.

Of course, in the real world, if they've got nothing to hold you on, the cops are supposed to give you your wallet back with all the money in it too, but I can verify that that does not always happen.

Armoury99's picture
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Harmonium and the looting of arrestees

The key here is 'on duty' I think. If the players are talking about doing things strictly by the book (which it sounds like they are), then criminals should be treated with the Hamonium's scrupulous (in theory) attention to Lawful (with Good tendencies) ethos. That means no looting! Quite apart from encouraging theft and corruption its a Public Relations nightmare, for the reason Azure talks about above.

So in theory you're NPCs would get all their possessions back in the morning. After all, if the PCs got pinched by a patrol for a minor offense (say, a barroom brawl), they wouldn't like to be turfed out in the morning without their stuff, now would they?

That's "in theory" however. There are several other potential options:

Firstly, one or more items could be illegal under Sigil Law. They naturally wouldn't be given back, but they probably wouldn't be allowed in the PCs' hands either for the same reason.

Quite frankly, we all know that some Hardheads sign up just to push people around, and embezzling a little from (especially obviously scum) prisoners probably does go on, but probably only to a few coins from a pouch (especially when it was drunk and disprderly) or the odd item "lost in transit" - you're PCs might well be of higher moral calliber, however.

Now there is a concept called prize money, which is usually associated with the navy. Something similar might apply, especially if its technically an incentive to catch proven dangerous criminals. Over in the

Ortho Project (which has buckets full of optional Harmonium information, by the way), we've basically decided that Prize Money isn't something the Harmonium does (you may do things differently), but there are incentives to bring in dangerous criminals which might well include bounties roughly equivalent (thanks to the magic of DMing...) to the loot that they'd have earned by just robbing them.

There's also the fact that the prisoners' items (especially their weapons) have probably just become evidence, and may be retained for that reason. If the NPCs 'go down for a stretch' as opposed to a few nights in the cells, then its not uncommon for the powers that be to sell off their items to help defer the cost - it seems reasonable to assume that the PCs could buy these items at a "police auction" for cut down prices.

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re

Of course, who's to say what the criminal had on him at the time of arrest. Sure the criminal can claim he was carrying all sorts of treasure, and he is free to file a complaint with the Guvners, but if the Hardheads start taking every claim of mistreatment seriously they'll never get anything done.

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Harmonium and the looting of arrestees

'Ambrus' wrote:
Just wondering how other DMs might handle this and whether there's some kind of historical precedent for such situations. I'm not concerned with shortchanging the players; one way or another, they'll get all the equipment they need. I'd just like to hear what others believe should be the Harmonium's standard Modus Operandi in such situations.

"A Prince, as I have said before, sooner becomes hated by being rapacious and by interfering with the property and the women of his subjects, than in any other way. From these, therefore, he should abstain. For so long as neither their property nor their honor is touched, the mass of mankind live contentedly..."
--Machiavelli, The Prince

[emphases mine, of course]

I have to vote "nay" on this one. While Harmonium PCs themselves may be a good-natured lot, if confiscation of personal stuff were an ordinary feature of the local civil code, I would expect large-scale looting of the citizenry to follow. Even if only by less good-natured NPCs.

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Harmonium and the looting of arrestees

'Armoury99' wrote:
So in theory you're NPCs would get all their possessions back in the morning.
Just to clarify, I wasn't talking about a simple 'disorderly conduct' charge which the suspects can sleep off, but serious criminal charges for which they're likely to be tried and convicted. I mean, at the very least, this particular bunch of NPCs broke into the boarding house where the PCs were staying and proceeded to physically assault them, including a Harmonium officer who identified herself as such.

For the sake of discussion here's a summary of the dozen or so opinions offered on the ENworld forums, along with my own two cent analysis of the issue.

Essentially, there were three (rule of threes) schools of thought on the matter (not including the one person who suggested that NPCs shouldn't generally possess anything of value).

Looting is more or less tolerated (5 people)

• 3 people held to the opinion that greed is the norm and everyone will grab anything they can get a hold of.
• 1 person thought it'd be okay as long as the arrester wasn't purposefully targeting the wealthy for arrest.
• 1 person thought it'd be okay as long as the suspect were convicted and bureaucratic procedures were followed.

Outlaws have no legal rights to property (2 people)

• Guilty till proven innocent. Suspects have no rights to property, so there's no crime in taking their stuff.
• If an arrestee's legal heirs aren't around to claim of ownership, then there's no crime in taking their stuff.

Seized property is turned over to the Harmonium (5 people)

• 3 people held to the opinion that cash rewards should be offered to the arresters if suspects were convicted.
• 1 person thought seized gear could be claimed by the victims before being put up for public auction.
• 1 person thought that the arresters could petition the Harmonium for compensation, but that it wasn't guaranteed.

Although the first option is the easiest to manage in-game (kill something, take its stuff) I don't believe it would/should be the default assumption in Sigil. Sure corruption exists, and might even be widespread, but I don't believe it should be the de facto legal code of the city. The civic code is agreed upon in the Hall of Speakers and upheld by three law-abiding factions. Sanctioning the seizure of property by officers of the law can only encourage false arrests, unwarranted persecution, and ever-increasing civil unrest. In one word: chaos. Neither the Hardheads, Guvners not Mercykillers want that, so they have to devise a different method of dealing with an arrestees' property.

The second option does have some historical merit to it, but it doesn't apply very well to a fantastic city like Sigil. The City of Doors is, first and foremost, a trade city; a planar hub of mercantilism. Two thirds of the city's population is, at any one time, transient. Most visitors simply don't have any form of valid identification or legal recognition within the city. But to survive and thrive, the city's government has to offer these foreign merchants a measure of legal protection, lest they simply choose to go somewhere more accommodating and safe. For that reason everyone within Sigil, whether they're natives with proper ID or clueless newly arrived from the prime, has to be granted some basic civil rights. They cannot be allowed to be accosted and their property taken from them without some sanctioned legal reprisals. Otherwise, many fewer people would risk coming through the City of Doors.

For these reasons, I believe only the final option is truly tenable. To maintain order and harmony in the Cage all of an arrested suspect's possessions are seized by the Harmonium and held until trial; at which point they are returned in the case of an acquittal or permanently retained in the case of a conviction. Other Factions, such as the Fraternity of Order and the Fated, help oversee the process to ensure proper procedures are maintained. Following a conviction, a semi-public auction can be held amongst the factions, perhaps with due consideration going to the victims and/or arresters. Proceeds of the sale of a criminal's possessions go towards compensating the victims, legal and incarceration fees and in paying out rewards and compensations as appropriate to the arresters.

Although the latter approach does dissuade baseless persecution due to the fact that the arresters won't be compensated for false arrests due to a lack of evidence, it does encourage corruption. For instance, there's little incentive for an officer to arrest a poor suspect since he can't hope to claim a lucrative reward after a successful conviction. On the other hand, it does encourage officers to pursue wealthy suspects and to falsefy evidence to ensure an eventual conviction. There's also little to stop an out-and-out corrupt officer from pocketing an arrestee's possessions during an arrest naturally.

Thoughts? Opinions?

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Harmonium and the looting of arrestees

I pretty much agree with your analysis.

In our world, offering cash prizes for the highest number of arrests in a month is technicly illegal, but precincts have been caught giving away t-shirts, guns, sports tickets, pick of cruiser, etc. Problem is, deciding giving "ball buster of the month" the nice parking space is OK but a brand new 12-guage is not. How about a new mag-light, is that OK? "No" say police oversight councils, "Aw, c'mon" say conservatives.

In the Sigilan setting, I would think cash incentives would be no-go. 'Assigning' equipment in recognition for service wouldn't be looked twice at, though. The kind of unofficial incentives that a precinct full of like-minded individuals have on the side are also not a big deal, so a betting pool (would Harmonium do this?) that payed off on the result of a trial, or went to the squad with the most arrests, would not be looked into so long as it didn't get totally out of control.

Dire Lemon's picture
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Harmonium and the looting of arrestees

Don't worry about it. Three more berks and their stuff are headed you way right now. Laughing out loud

Zeniel's picture
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Harmonium and the looting of arrestees

It seems to me that the hardheads would auction off any seized goods of criminals that were y'know in for the long haul.

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Harmonium and the looting of arrestees

I think that Harmonium uphold some rights of their prisoners (at least good Harmonium).

But things should be different when they are dealing with Indeps. You see it is said (in factol's manifesto) that Indepps have little or no rights that protect them as citizens of Sigil. (Reason why they band together).

So I guess that "bad" Harmonium members are pretty much aware of that fact. They arest Indep but simply keep their goods as "lost and found" items that no one claimed, aka they keep the stuff.

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Harmonium and the looting of arrestees

'Squaff' wrote:
So I guess that "bad" Harmonium members are pretty much aware of that fact. They arest Indep but simply keep their goods as "lost and found" items that no one claimed, aka they keep the stuff.

They don't always go through the trouble of arresting. Evil Hardheads have been known to hunt down and murder Indeps.

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Armoury99's picture
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Harmonium and the looting of arrestees

The phrase is "Resisting arrest." :twisted:

Duckluck's picture
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Harmonium and the looting of arrestees

Personally, I think the Harmonium are way more interesting (and scary) if they're only subtly oppressive. They work better as well-intentioned extremists than straight villains. They're all about using extremely questionable methods to achieve noble ends, but there's really no noble justification you can have for taking from those you've arrested (especially if they haven't been convicted). I'm sure it happens all the time (the Harmonium can be pretty corrupt at times), but I really can't see it as approved behavior.

Personally, I'd resolve the issue of rewarding the PCs by giving the Harmonium officer in the group a bonus or perhaps even a promotion. This is, of course, perfectly legitimate as it is a Harmonium officer's duty to enforce the law and by arresting a group of dangerous lawbreakers (while off-duty, no less), she performed her duty to a laudable degree and has earned a reward. The other PCs can be paid for "aiding a Harmonium officer in upholding the law." Not a lot of of people in Sigil stick their neck out to help the Harmonium, so the Harmonium tries to reward those who do.

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