Guardinals, the Beastlands, and other outsiders

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Thu, 2009-12-10 22:53

#52

Hyena of Ice

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factotums

Joined: 2009-09-25

Re: Guardinals, the Beastlands, and other outsiders

Some of the therianthropian (were-creature) deities also reside here. Here's a full list of the powers of the Beastlands (except for the Egyptian, Babylonian, and Sumerian pantheons) Though the locations given are from 2E stats.

Balador (Brux; wanders)
Deneir (Brux/Library of all Knowledge)
Ehlonna (Krigala/Grove of the Unicorn)
Ferrix (Brux; wanders)
Kura'okami (Karasuthra/Misty Valley)
Llerg (wanders)
Mielikki (Krigala/Grove of the Unicorns)
Milil (Brux/Library of all Knowledge)
Nobanion (Krigala/Pridelands)
Quorlinn (Krigala/Filchnest)
Puchan (Brux/Restweal)
Rellavar Danuvien (Karasuthra/Ice Plains) (Dragon 236)
Remnis (Krigala/Goldenroost)
Shiallia (Krigala/The High Glade)
Skerrit (Krigala/Skerrit's Glade)
Stronmaus (Karasuthra/Stormhold)
Ubtao (Krigala/The Forbidden Plataeau)

As far as I know, none of these powers lean towards evil (though quite a few of them are good-aligned). This probably explains why the Beastlands haven't slipped into the neutral planes.

Mon, 2009-11-09 08:49

#53

xidoraven

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Re: Guardinals, the Beastlands, and other outsiders

Wow. Neat.

Okay, so a lot of these divinities are not well-covered in new material. For one thing, after looking for Remnis information, the best I could come up with was this: http://marq.wikispaces.com/Remnis and even that is a little skimpy for my tastes. An idea even occurred to me that Remnis might make for a wonderful ascended Seraphim, given the circumstances, portfolio, and description - although s/he would have taken on a different form in order to be more like that of the giant eagles. Anyways, just an idea.

These divinities would definitely have helped to keep the Beastlands in the 'good zone'. Definitely more of them than I was prepared for.... It's so funny that all this stuff is happening in the Beastlands, and no one even pays attention to it..... Incredibly overlooked.

And for the record, I frigging HATE Elohnna - stupid unicorn princess slut.... What kind of nature deity is so lame and froofy as this? They should have made her more balanced and realistic. I like my idea of Eloa better - a nature deity of rot, decay, and assimilation.... But anyways.

Ok, so we've got it covered why the Beastlands doesn't slip into the Outlands... And I understand the Mortai (wicked crazy epic stats!!!) - still need to check out the Animal Lords... Will do that shortly. And with that said, I think I covered all the questionables in my search.... We've established that the only way the guardinals are going to have a pre-history is if we homebrew it. That doesn't really bother me, since I was going to do the same with the dinopriminals. So does this mean I should just lolligag my way back to ENWorld to finish the work on them and then come back and update you all on my progress? Or is there something that we may have missed or not fully covered?

Anyone want to join in on the creation of dinopriminal content? It might go into a publication (if I can keep my sh** together long enough to get it written and compiled without becoming homeless..... again)....?

Mon, 2009-11-09 15:02

#54

Hyena of Ice

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factotums

Joined: 2009-09-25

Re: Guardinals, the Beastlands, and other outsiders

Most of the info on the monster deities is found in 2E materials-- Monster Mythology, On Hallowed Ground, and 1st ed. Deities and Demigods.

""And for the record, I frigging HATE Elohnna - stupid unicorn princess slut.... What kind of nature deity is so lame and froofy as this?""

Mielikki is pretty similar (Forgotten Realms nature deity), and Lurue actually IS a unicorn princess (literally), though I think she's native to the Prime/Toril. (Hold on, lemee double check here) Yeah, Lurue is native to Toril (otherwise she would have surely been native to the Beastlands and probably shared Mielikki's realm since the two are VERY close allies)

Mon, 2009-11-09 17:04

#55

ripvanwormer

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Joined: 2004-10-05

Re: Guardinals, the Beastlands, and other outsiders

Mielikki's pretty much identical to Ehlonna, and they even share the same outer planar realm.

I've always compared Ehlonna to the Celtic goddess Epona (goddess of fertility and horses) and the Greek Artemis (a hardcore badass huntress who bathes in the moonlight). Ehlonna's unicorn-horn symbol can also be seen as a cornucopia, a horn of plenty, as the crescent moon, and as a phallic symbol as well.

Ehlonna isn't just a patron of unicorns. In her human aspect, she's the Horse Mother, the patron of non-horned equines. She's also a goddess of bariaurs. She's a patron of rangers, a warrior against evil, and an opponent of Obad-Hai. She has many faces.

Wed, 2009-11-11 15:49

#56

jareddm

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Re: Guardinals, the Beastlands, and other outsiders

Hyena of Ice wrote:

""And for the record, I frigging HATE Elohnna - stupid unicorn princess slut.... What kind of nature deity is so lame and froofy as this?""

If I remember correctly, Mielikki and Elohnna were so similar that Elohnna's name was used by accident somewhere in Mielikki's stat block in Faiths and Pantheons.

Thu, 2009-12-10 22:12

#57

Hyena of Ice

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factotums

Joined: 2009-09-25

Re: Guardinals, the Beastlands, and other outsiders

Yeah, and in Faiths and Avatars, one of the nicknames for Ghanaudaur is "Juiblex" (even though, from what I can gather they truly are separate entities. VERY similar portfolios, though, as both are "The God of Oozes, Slimes, and Jellies". The main difference is that they reside on different layers of the Abyss, and that Ghaunadaur includes some aspects not found in Juiblex, nor does he share Juiblex's alliance with Zuggmotoy or whatever her name is.)

It may well be that Ehlonna and Mielikki truly are the same deity who is simply given different names by different prime worlds.

""Ehlonna isn't just a patron of unicorns. In her human aspect, she's the Horse Mother, the patron of non-horned equines. She's also a goddess of bariaurs. She's a patron of rangers, a warrior against evil, and an opponent of Obad-Hai. She has many faces.""
That's probably one of the main differences between her and Mielikki. Mielikki isn't the patron of unicorns; Lurue is, and Lurue is prettymuch the patron of intelligent animals/magical beasts. Mielikki...
Can take the form of a unicorn. Lemee see who her allies and enemies are:
Allies: Eldath, Silvanus (these are both nature deities. Silvanus prettymuch embodies true neutrality/natural balance while Eldath embodies peace and the creative/healing aspect of water.), Gwaeron Windstrom (Demigod who serves her; identical portfolio), Shiallia (demigoddess of fertility; another nature deity), Lathander (god of light and the morning; sorta similar to Pelor), Shaundakul (travel and the wind), Lurue (intelligent animals/magical beasts)
Enemies: Malar (savage beasts, bloodlust), Talona (poison and disease), Talos (storms, nature's destructive side), Moander (dead deity of corruption and decay), Myrkul (dead deity of decay and atropy/withering)

Anyhow, here's some materials you'll REALLY want to get your hands on in order to work on this project:
--Planes of Conflict (planescape accessory) This book gives the in-depth description of the Beastlands, and you'll want to use it in order to fit your Dinoprimals into the ecology and politics of the plane. Study it, then study it some more.

For convenience, here is a list of creatures native to the Beastlands that can be found in 3x materials:

--Animal, any (PHB, Creature Catalogue) (note that Planes of Conflict states that any Animal found on any Prime world can be found here.)

Here is a list of animals and giant animals outside of the Monster Manual 1. Oh, there are a ton of converted dinosaurs on the Creature Catalogue, so many in fact that I'm not going to bother listing them here. Also included in the creature catalogue are some cynodonts and gorgonopsids, but I'm pretty certain those are from before Ka's time.

--Agriotherium (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Albatross (Stormwrack)
--Ambelodon (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Amphicyon (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Anancus (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Antlion, Giant (Sandstorm)
--Arsinotherium (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Astrapotherium (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Barracuda (Stormwrack)
--Bear, Giant Short-Faced (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Beaver (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Boar, Giant Warthog (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Brine Swimmer (Sandstorm)
--Brixashulty (Races of the Wild)
--Camel, Dromedary (Sandstorm)
--Camel, Giant (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Camel, Two-Humped (Sandstorm)
--Caribou (Frostburn)
--Chordevoc (Races of the Wild)
--Crab, Monstrous (Stormwrack)
--Deer (Forgotten Realms: Silver Marches)
--Dinosaur, Allosaurus (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Dinosaur, Ankylosaurus (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Dinosaur, Archelon (Stormwrack)
--Dinosaur, Battletitan (Monster Manual 3)
--Dinosaur, Bloodstriker (Monster Manual 3)
--Dinosaur, Cryptoclidus (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Dinosaur, Diprotodon (Sandstorm)
--Dinosaur, Fleshraker (Monster Manual 3)
--Dinosaur, Giganotosaurus (Dragon 318)
--Dinosaur, Ighthyosaur (Stormwrack)
--Dinosaur, Iguanodon (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Dinosaur, Indriothere (Fiend Folio, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Dinosaur, Mosasaur (Stormwrack)
--Dinosaur, Plesiosaur (Stormwrack)
--Dinosaur, Protoceratops (Sandstorm)
--Dinosaur, Quetzalcoatlus (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Dinosaur, Seismosaurus (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Dinosaur, Spinosaurus (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Dinosaur, Stegosaurus (Dragon 318)
--Dinosaur, Swindlespitter (Monster Manual 3)
--Diving Spider, Monstrous (Stormwrack)
--Eel (Stormwrack)
--Elk (Forgotten Realms: Silver Marches)
--Fish, Giant Angler (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Fox, Arctic (Frostburn)
--Frog, Giant (Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil)
--Gar, Giant (Dragon 321)
--Giraffe (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Grizzly Mastodon (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Glyptodon (Frostburn)
--Hippopotamus (Sandstorm)
--Jackal (Sandstorm)
--Lamprey, Dire
--Lizard, Giant Banded (Sandstorm)
--Lizard, Giant Footpad (Forgotten Realms: Drow of the Underdark)
--Lizard, Giant Quicksilver (Forgotten Realms: Drow of the Underdark)
--Lizard, Giant Subterranean (Forgotten Realms: Drow of the Underdark)
--Lizard, Horned (Sandstorm)
--Macrauchenia (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Mastodon (Monster Manual 3)
--Megalodon (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Megapede (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Megatherium (Fiend Folio, 3.5 update pamphlet) (megatherium is the giant plains lizard which went extinct due to the arrival of humans in prehistoric times)
--Moose (Dragon 327)
--Moropus (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Musk-Ox (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Okapi (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Otter (Stormwrack)
--Otter, Sea (Frostburn)
--Panda (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Penguin (Frostburn)
--Porcupine Cactus (Sandstorm)
--Raven, Giant (Frostburn)
--Rhinoceros, Warbeast (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update handbook)
--Saguaro Sentinel (Sandstorm)
--Sarkastodon (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Scorpion, Giant Whip (FR: Lost Empires of Faerun)
--Seal (Frostburn, Stormwrack)
--Sea Lion (Stormwrack)
--Sea Tiger (Monster Manual 3)
--Serval (Sandstorm)
--Smilodon (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Snake, Sea (Stormwrack)
--Spider, Giant Sun (FR: Lost Empires of Faerun) (basically a giant camel spider)
--Spider, Giant Whip (FR: Lost Empires of Faerun)
--Squirrel, Flying (Dragon 327)
--Stingray (Stormwrack)
--Swarm, Jellyfish (Stormwrack)
--Swarm, Leech (Stormwrack)
--Swarm, Needletooth (Monster Manual 3)
--Swarm, Pirhana (Stormwrack)
--Swarm, Scorpion (Stormwrack)
--Swarm, Swamp Strider (Monster Manual 3)
--Swarm, Viper (Fiend Folio, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Swarm, Wasp (Fiend Folio, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Tapir (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Termite, Giant (Sandstorm)
--Terror Bird (Fiend Folio) (Terror Birds are actually a prehistoric bird native to South America.)
--Tick, Giant (Dragon 321)
--Turtle, Giant Sea (Stormwrack, under "Pearlsteel Turtle". Stats may need to be ajdusted slightly.)
--Turtle, Snapping (Frostburn)
--Vulture (Sandstorm)
--Walrus (Frostburn)
--Wooly Mammoth (Frostburn)

Here is a list of dire animals outside of the Monster Manual 1.
--Barracuda, Dire (Stormwrack)
--Camel, Dire (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Eel, Dire (Stormwrack)
--Elephant, Dire (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Elk, Dire (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Hawk, Dire (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update pamphlet, Races of the Wild)
--Hippopotamus, Dire (Sandstorm)
--Jackal, Dire (Sandstorm)
--Polarbear, Dire (Frostburn)
--Puma, Dire (Sandstorm)
--Rhinoceros, Dire (Fiend Folio, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Snake, Dire (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Toad, Dire (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Tortoise, Dire (Sandstorm)
--Vulture, Dire (Sandstorm)

Here is a list of monsters.
--Animal, Celestial template (Monster Manual 1)
--Animal, Legendary (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Animal, Spirit template (Frostburn)
--Baku (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Cranium Rat Swarm (Fiend Folio, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Deva, Astral (Monster Manual 1)
--Deva, Movanic (Fiend Folio, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Dragon, Beast (Dragon 321)
--Dragon, Oceanus (Draconomicon)
--Dread Blossom Swarm (Monster Manual 3)
--Eagle, Giant (Monster Manual 1)
--Elsewhale (Planar Handbook)
--Energon, Xap-Yaup (Planar Handbook)
--Feral Creature template (Savage Species)
--Gaspar (Planar Handbook)
--Guardinal, Equinal (Book of Exalted Deeds)
--Guardinal, Lupinal (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Guardinal, Leonal (Monster Manual 1)
--Guardinal, Ursinal (Monster Manual 1)
--Hollyphant (Book of Exalted Deeds)
--Kenku (Monster Manual 3)
--Lammasu (Monster Manual 1)
--Mercane (Manual of the Planes, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Mortai (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Owl, Giant (Monster Manual 1)
--Planetar (Monster Manual 1)
--Protectar (Miniatures Handbook)
--Solar (Monster Manual 1)
--Spirit of the Wild (Dungeon Magazine 148)
--Storm Giant (Monster Manual 1) (good-aligned storm giants appear on Beastlands due to the presence of Stronmaus)
--Swarm, Sunfly (Book of Exalted Deeds)
--Unicorn (Monster Manual 1)
--Werebear (Monster Manual 1)
--Weretiger (Monster Manual 1)

Also, don't forget the Wildren race from Planar Handbook.

Note: The 3.5 update pamphlet is a free download from Wizards website.

Thu, 2009-11-12 16:28

#58

ripvanwormer

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Joined: 2004-10-05

Re: Guardinals, the Beastlands, and other outsiders

Quote:

Ghaunadaur is, thematically, a combination of Juiblex and the Elder Elemental God. The Elder Elemental God was a mysterious patron of a renegade drow faction in the Against the Giants/Against the Drow series of 1st edition modules, not yet identified (as it is in present canon) with Tharizdun. Ed Greenwood, when he wrote Drow of the Underdark, gave the Elder Elemental God a name, Ghaunadaur, and folded in some elements of Juiblex. Ghaunadaur is not actually the same as either of those beings, but takes their place on the world of Toril (perhaps having slain their Torilian aspects long ago).

In 2nd edition canon, Ghaunadaur lives in the Paraelemental Plane of Ooze, not the Abyss. The 3rd edition decision to put him in the Demonweb Pits really makes no sense at all, considering his rivalry with Lolth. It's a result of early 3e designers trying initially to retcon things so that the Demonweb was a plane where all drow deities lived regardless of their enmities, and had been an independent plane all along and never Lolth's exclusive domain; then the War of the Spider Queen series came along and explained that really it was just Lolth's Abyssal layer which she ripped free during her Silence just recently, in which case Ghaunadaur really shouldn't have any place there. But 4th edition books claim he once lived on Lolth's plane because the constant cosmological changes on Toril lead themselves to clusterhumps like that, and it remains canon despite not making any sense anymore.

The main difference between Juiblex and Ghaunadaur is that Juiblex is a tanar'ri (and thus part of a race of personifications of chaotic evil created by the obyriths, drawing power from the Abyss and mortal beliefs, souls, lusts, fears, and hatreds) and Ghaunadaur is a god, probably from the Far Realm originally (and thus an alien being to some extent beyond alignment, alien to this multiverse with no real connection to non-aberrant creatures, incomprehensible to their minds).

Which is to say, they're completely different kinds of entities who happen to have overlapping spheres of influence, and Ghaunadaur has proven too popular on one particular world for Juiblex to be able to earn a foothold of his own (or has lost what foothold he once had). So on Toril, when slime cultists pray to "Juiblex," Ghaundaur answers their prayers instead (or ignores them, depending on his mood). It's the same as how Lolth has taken on Moander's guise to subsume his worshipers (though Lolth and Moander are certainly not the same), and Gargauth has inherited the name and title of the slain demon lord Astaroth.

Thu, 2009-11-12 19:47

#59

Hyena of Ice

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factotums

Joined: 2009-09-25

Re: Guardinals, the Beastlands, and other outsiders

""Ghaunadaur is a god, probably from the Far Realm originally""

That was my impression as well. Actually, my impression of D&D cosmology (at least the 2E cosmology) is that the first beings in the multiverse were Far-Realm Cthulu-esque beings and powers, but have long since either gone into dormancy or were deposed by newer beings such as the Obryliths. (when I say "either" I mean "some of part A, some of part B" rather than "either A or B")

Sat, 2009-11-21 23:19

#60

xidoraven

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Joined: 2009-10-17

Re: Guardinals, the Beastlands, and other outsiders

First off, I have finalized the stats for a Seraphim angel - the precursor race and cultural name for pre-celestial (archon) society, and most similar to Raziel the Crusader of the Throne Archons in nature, with an avian focus similar to (Sathia?) the Companion of Talisid that is the paragon of the avorals. Remnis could be an ascended seraphim, and I am making a new set of stats for Pazuzu as though he had been a seraphim and fell from grace during a period of his Challenge of Holy Divergence.

Please check this pdf out and let me know your thoughts on it:
http://www.elftown.com/stuff/seraphim_angel01.pdf

I left one thing pretty open to creative liberties on the part of the storyteller: These avian angels could take characteristics of any bird form, although the most typical would be hawk, owl, parrot, raven, and some distinctive songbirds - I did not outline that specific point to allow some creativity with their unique appearances, including colors of their body and plumage because of the great deal of diversity could come from this simple open statement.

Hyena of Ice wrote:

Anyhow, here's some materials you'll REALLY want to get your hands on in order to work on this project: --Planes of Conflict (planescape accessory) This book gives the in-depth description of the Beastlands, and you'll want to use it in order to fit your Dinoprimals into the ecology and politics of the plane. Study it, then study it some more.

For convenience, here is a list of creatures native to the Beastlands that can be found in 3x materials:

--Animal, any (PHB, Creature Catalogue) (note that Planes of Conflict states that any Animal found on any Prime world can be found here.)

--Agriotherium (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Albatross (Stormwrack)
--Ambelodon (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Amphicyon (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Anancus (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Antlion, Giant (Sandstorm)
--Arsinotherium (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Astrapotherium (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Barracuda (Stormwrack)
--Bear, Giant Short-Faced (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Beaver (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Boar, Giant Warthog (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Brine Swimmer (Sandstorm)
--Brixashulty (Races of the Wild)
--Camel, Dromedary (Sandstorm)
--Camel, Giant (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Camel, Two-Humped (Sandstorm)
--Caribou (Frostburn)
--Chordevoc (Races of the Wild)
--Crab, Monstrous (Stormwrack)
--Dinosaur, Allosaurus (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Dinosaur, Ankylosaurus (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Dinosaur, Archelon (Stormwrack)
--Dinosaur, Battletitan (Monster Manual 3)
--Dinosaur, Bloodstriker (Monster Manual 3)
--Dinosaur, Cryptoclidus (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Dinosaur, Diprotodon (Sandstorm)
--Dinosaur, Fleshraker (Monster Manual 3)
--Dinosaur, Giganotosaurus (Dragon 318)
--Dinosaur, Ighthyosaur (Stormwrack)
--Dinosaur, Iguanodon (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Dinosaur, Indriothere (Fiend Folio, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Dinosaur, Mosasaur (Stormwrack)
--Dinosaur, Plesiosaur (Stormwrack)
--Dinosaur, Protoceratops (Sandstorm)
--Dinosaur, Quetzalcoatlus (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Dinosaur, Seismosaurus (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Dinosaur, Spinosaurus (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Dinosaur, Stegosaurus (Dragon 318)
--Dinosaur, Swindlespitter (Monster Manual 3)
--Diving Spider, Monstrous (Stormwrack)
--Eel (Stormwrack)
--Fish, Giant Angler (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Fox, Arctic (Frostburn)
--Gar, Giant (Dragon 321)
--Giraffe (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Grizzly Mastodon (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Glyptodon (Frostburn)
--Hippopotamus (Sandstorm)
--Jackal (Sandstorm)
--Lamprey, Dire
--Lizard, Giant Banded (Sandstorm)
--Lizard, Horned (Sandstorm)
--Macrauchenia (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Mastodon (Monster Manual 3)
--Megalodon (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Megapede (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Megatherium (Fiend Folio, 3.5 update pamphlet) (megatherium is the giant plains lizard which went extinct due to the arrival of humans in prehistoric times)
--Moose (Dragon 327)
--Moropus (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Musk-Ox (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Okapi (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Otter (Stormwrack)
--Otter, Sea (Frostburn)
--Panda (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Penguin (Frostburn)
--Porcupine Cactus (Sandstorm)
--Raven, Giant (Frostburn)
--Rhinoceros, Warbeast (Monster Manual 2, 3.5 update handbook)
--Saguaro Sentinel (Sandstorm)
--Sarkastodon (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Seal (Frostburn, Stormwrack)
--Sea Lion (Stormwrack)
--Sea Tiger (Monster Manual 3)
--Serval (Sandstorm)
--Smilodon (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Snake, Sea (Stormwrack)
--Squirrel, Flying (Dragon 327)
--Stingray (Stormwrack)
--Swarm, Jellyfish (Stormwrack)
--Swarm, Leech (Stormwrack)
--Swarm, Needletooth (Monster Manual 3)
--Swarm, Pirhana (Stormwrack)
--Swarm, Scorpion (Stormwrack)
--Swarm, Swamp Strider (Monster Manual 3)
--Swarm, Viper (Fiend Folio, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Swarm, Wasp (Fiend Folio, 3.5 update pamphlet)
--Tapir (EN World Creature Catalogue converted monsters)
--Termite, Giant (Sandstorm)
--Terror Bird (Fiend Folio) (Terror Birds are actually a prehistoric bird native to South America.)
--Tick, Giant (Dragon 321)
--Turtle, Giant Sea (Stormwrack, under "Pearlsteel Turtle". Stats may need to be ajdusted slightly.)
--Turtle, Snapping (Frostburn)
--Vulture (Sandstorm)
--Walrus (Frostburn)
--Wooly Mammoth (Frostburn)

Also, don't forget the Wildren race from Planar Handbook.

Okay, so I will have to have you all retain your rights to being experts with knowledge of what is within 'Planes of Conflict' because a new publication is nowhere in my budget for a long time to come, and I will likely not have much time come shortly to research it online, although the links here have been helping immensely. The summary of the Beastlands in correlation to Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and Forgotten Realms campaign worlds on canonfire.com still keeps me thinking about relations between the outer plane and the Prime world, Nym. I think I have got this now. I don't have some of those creatures listed, although I am aware of the ENWorld Creature Catalog entries as far as they are listed currently. I do have Fiend Folio, Sandstorm, Stormwrack, Book of Exalted Deeds, Manual of the Planes, Planar Handbook, Races of the Wild, Deities and Demigods, and Draconomicon, Frostburn, and MM I-V off the top of my head.

Do you know if any of the other 'Races of...' publications had any similar animals or familiar-type races at all? I think I may have Races of Stone on pdf somewhere...

I don't have any of the Dragon Magazine editions listed there, although I do have one with eleven dinosaur races in it (Dragon 318). I have them transcribed on ENWorld for consideration in creating a set of statistic precedents for dinosaurs and prehistoric animals especially for this campaign setting and related material.

Also, I have read only sparsely that a race known as the Aphanacts preceded the Inevitables (Monster Ecologies - Ecology of the Inevitables). What do we know about them? I am developing some ideas for a race of post-Modron living construct outsiders, a pantheon of technology deities, and some information regarding Tech Traits for creatures, objects, equipment, etc. I think I would like to know how the Aphanacts were involved in the highly discussed Law vs. Chaos wars that preceded the current Good vs. Evil and Evil vs. Evil wars...? Are there stats for a 'Creche-Forge' for Inevitables anywhere (the place/object where they are upgraded, cleaned and reprogrammed between 'lifespans')?

PLEASE make sure to give me some honest input on the Seraphim stats draft (http://www.elftown.com/stuff/seraphim_angel01.pdf) before you go or reply. I would like reviews from the experts on being of the planes before I move any further forward on this creature and the ancient pre-celestial upper planes lore. Thanks and best wishes all!
-will

Sat, 2009-11-21 23:34

#61

ripvanwormer

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Re: Guardinals, the Beastlands, and other outsiders

Quote:

Also, I have read only sparsely that a race known as the Aphanacts preceded the Inevitables (Monster Ecologies - Ecology of the Inevitables).

Nothing beyond what's in that article. They were described as angel-like and they were wiped out 10,000 years ago by an alliance of fiends and celestials.

Quote:

I think I would like to know how the Aphanacts were involved in the highly discussed Law vs. Chaos wars that preceded the current Good vs. Evil and Evil vs. Evil wars...?

There's nothing official on the subject, but it's been speculated that the "angels" that served Asmodeus in Fiendish Codex II (and became the baatezu) were actually aphanacts. That's just supposition, though.

Quote:

Are there stats for a 'Creche-Forge' for Inevitables anywhere (the place/object where they are upgraded, cleaned and reprogrammed between 'lifespans')?

There's a description of one in the Planar Handbook, page 179.

You might also be interested in the Valley of Thunder, a valley in the Beastlands filled with dinosaurs (Planar Handbook, page 173).

Wed, 2009-11-25 03:33

#62

xidoraven

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Re: Guardinals, the Beastlands, and other outsiders

Speculation - check. Assumption - check. Supposition - check. Okay, we're doing great so far. Sounds like I found another uncovered niche...!

You know, I have that book and I must have completely missed it. I will look again. Great work, Rip.

SOOOOO..... I have to let you all in on a little secret... I am working on some technology stuff too. This would include many mechanoids such as the Inevitables, Modrons, Automatons, as well as new ones: Omnati, Quixoti, Aphanacts, and Technology divinities (such as Primus and others). Aphanacts (and the divinity, Aphan) are pretty self-explanatory, Omnati ("om-nah-tee") are outsiders native to Mechanus (similar to Modrons and based on a Living Construct subtype), and Quixoti ("kee-ho-tee") are Extraplanar Living Constructs which are not considered Outsiders. And yeah, I have some ideas about the tech deities too...

So my last important question for the night: do we have a picture of Primus the Modron Prime anywhere? Maybe just a physical description. I have in my possession already the web enhancement for Modrons from WotC, but it is rather general in regard to Primus himself. I had to brew up some stats for him as it is... I would just prefer it to be as 'official' as possible since I am putting so much time and effort into it.

For the record, the stats for Seraphim are complete. Anyone had a chance to check it out? I posted a link up for it earlier on....?
-will

Sat, 2009-11-28 03:28

#63

xidoraven

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Re: Guardinals, the Beastlands, and other outsiders

In my imagination, Aphanacts are similar in many ways to a creature I saw on a Magic card... It was somewhat angel-like, and had wings and a construct humanoid body form. Patagia Golem, it may have been called...?? Not sure, but that is what my mind's eye sees right now.

I would die for a picture of Primus right now - I have looked everywhere, and cannot find one. The best I have is from this page: http://unurthed.com/2008/09/06/modrons-as-contemplative-geometry/ Those modrons look lame though... :/ A contest on ENWorld has an image of a cool little monodrone posted as well (MUCH better!): http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan-creations-house-rules/244134-design-... I suspect it was based off this one, which looks definitively like a 2nd edition illustration: http://www.deathstar.org/~krlipka/ps/sense/3erules/races.html This image is also great! = http://www.deviantart.com/download/51763324/March_of_the_Modrons_by_jdil...

I also had a really good time laughing at the remarks made about them by these guys: http://www.somethingawful.com/d/dungeons-and-dragons/wtf-dnd-modron.php

I read somewhere that an issue of Dragon magazine has a good image of Primus in it, and there are some decent images in other publications from Planescape or the 'March of the Modrons' (dear lord, I hope I am naming these correctly...)...?

Sun, 2009-11-29 22:18

#64

xidoraven

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Re: Guardinals, the Beastlands, and other outsiders

Quote:

Yep, it was a Patagia Golem I was thinking about:
http://www.apple.co.uk/illustration/range_images/Patagia%20Golem_350.jpg

Quote:

@me: Are there stats for a 'Creche-Forge' for Inevitables anywhere (the place/object where they are upgraded, cleaned and reprogrammed between 'lifespans')?

@rip: There's a description of one in the Planar Handbook, page 179.

Is this 'The Life Molds of Neumannus'? I wish they would call it the same thing... Very confusing otherwise. It also isn't a very revealing description aesthetically speaking.

Thu, 2009-12-10 09:49

#65

xidoraven

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Re: Guardinals, the Beastlands, and other outsiders

xidoraven wrote:

In my imagination, Aphanacts are similar in many ways to a creature I saw on a Magic card... (Patagia Golem)

I would die for a picture of Primus right now - I have looked everywhere, and cannot find one.

I think I will make stats for Patagia Golems as a contruct created by the Aphanacts. Any suggestions for HD or other abilities?

I have downloaded the pdf versions of Dragon Magazine v. 354 (I believe that's the right number) which has the article about Modrons in it, as well as 'Planes of Conflict', and 'The Great Modron March'. I did not see an image of Primus in the modron article - I will look through the rest of the magazine to make sure I did not miss it, but I would have thought it would be in that article.

I will put the rest of my considerations on living construct outsiders, technology, and aphanacts/modrons/inevitables on another thread to keep this one clear for Beastlands natives and Guardinals / animal-like outsiders. I am also going to have to set one up for languages and planar linguistics as it relates to modern and ancient languages (as well as 4e PHB languages) and how that relates to the cultures of the planes, etc. Sorry to go off-key, but it was necessary for consideration with the rest of my campaign setting information to get it down just right on how stuff related.
-will

Wed, 2009-12-09 21:19

#66

ripvanwormer

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Re: Guardinals, the Beastlands, and other outsiders

Quote:

Is this 'The Life Molds of Neumannus'? I wish they would call it the same thing... Very confusing otherwise. It also isn't a very revealing description aesthetically speaking.

Yeah, I assume they're the same thing. It's a factory where inevitables are made, what else could it be? And no, it isn't very detailed. Neumannus is also briefly described in the 3rd edition Manual of the Planes, page 129.

There's a great picture of Primus in The Great Modron March, page 13.

Thu, 2009-12-10 10:40

#67

xidoraven

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Re: Guardinals, the Beastlands, and other outsiders

ripvanwormer wrote:

It's no wonder I wasn't inspired to put more modrons and technology into my games... What was left of their wonders to inspire me? Should I roll on the Heavenly or Hellish Encounter Tables to put them into a game? Wow... Sad.

Quote:

There's a great picture of Primus in The Great Modron March, page 13.

THAT'S what I was looking for. I can work with THAT. I have already emailed the original artist (I assume, Adam Rex, according to the publication credits) asking to rework his idea, and if there are any other intellectual property rights issues I may need to consider.

Yay! Can you imagine? New Modron and Primus material? I am so ready to homebrew now! I have an idea that will actually merge elements of both the recent Primus image as well as the old one (I know that's a scary thought, but it is in fact possible without it looking like massive cheesy death!). I am also putting together a pdf of technology-oriented deities and mechanoid cultures, including modrons (though I will primarily leave this one alone except for some new artworks and mentions, since there is a wealth of information out there already which need not be reprinted in my own texts).

New tech deities will include:
Primus - modron prime deity
Technos - alien god of technology
Aepos - deity of energy, constructs, and creation
Matrice - deity of geometry, the grid and matrices (sing. matrix)
Aignos - deity of geometry, circles, triangles, and Moignos
Aphan - deity of the Aphanacts
Cog / Creche / Cain - a trinity deity of the forge, cogs, and mechanoid warriors

It will be written with two sets of stats for each deity - one like those in 'Races of the Wild' (short version), and one like those in 'Deities and Demigods' (extended version). I will post it up here when I have just a little more on each deity. After that, I have new mechanoid creatures to introduce, and technology traits rules which can be used on creatures, items, and potential new player abilities (technomancer, engineer, mechanaut). I see that Mechanus has a planar cleric domain, but will also have to make a domain called 'Technology' (based on Magic/Mentalism), as well as 'Energy' (elemental type with a lean toward electricity) and 'Siege/Siegery' (War with a lean toward siege engines and gears/mechanics of war).

Sound tasty?

Tue, 2010-01-05 09:17

#68

Center of All

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Re: Guardinals, the Beastlands, and other outsiders

I've been wanting to see a sort of "Races of Law" or "Races of Balance" book in the same vein as Hellbound, Faces of Evil, the Fiendish Codexes, Book of Exalted Deeds and Book of Vile Darkness. The celestials and (especially) fiends have gotten a lot of attention in splatbooks but the Mechanus races like modrons, the rilmani, and the slaad get very, very little in comparison. Neutrality is an oft-ignored aspect of the planes, it seems Too bad because the rilmani are one of my favorite exemplar races, as evidenced by my username.

I know this thread hasn't been updated in about a month. However I wanted to say that I found much of this discussion fascinating and inspiring. I am going to look into seeing how some of this could help me develop my comic's story further. Undoubtedly I'll have questions so I'll come back for more.

"Mechalich" wrote:

The Baatezu replaced the Ancient Baatorians, the Tanar'ri the Obyriths, and the Rilmani the Kalmarel.

I know Mechalich doesn't come around much anymore but I want to be a little pedantic.

My impression of the kamerel isn't that they were "replaced" by belief so much as they simply left. They didn't want to be found anymore so they went to the Mirror plane. The rilmani exemplify balance in all things, but the kamerel represented the part of neutrality that wanted to be left alone, something now only seen in plumachs.

__________________

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Tue, 2010-01-05 12:05

#69

xidoraven

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Re: Guardinals, the Beastlands, and other outsiders

I am keeping a close eye here, because I am doing a few projects - one of which will pull from PS material related to exactly what you just mentioned - the overlooked parts. There are too many of them to let them go unused.

I am unfamiliar with the ancient Baatorians, obyrith, and especially the kalmarel - except for what I have been privy to here on this site as well as the little excerpts I have been shown from WotC site & forums, most specifically the obyriths. I own Book of Vile Darkness, but I do not have either of the Fiendish Codices, Faces of Evil, or Hellbound. I purposefully limited myself from publications about evil for the simple fact that there was no way I was going to be able to put forward something about them that had not already been done a thousand times before.

My primary interests have always been in ancient histories, origins, cultures, and the extremely curious diversity of the planes.... Including planar events and activity not limited to the PSCS. I also own a book by Legends & Lairs (Fantasy Flight Games) called Portals & Planes, which became an additional wealth of information about just those things - I have found this book, in addition to my Manual of the Planes - has become invaluable to my games. The planar traits and mix-and-match aspect of creating new worlds, realms, and cosmologies is awe-inspiring. That, and they don't flake out on things like technology and planar environmental hazards... Which I love.

There is SO MUCH that can be done with the planes, including but not limited to the Great Wheel Cosmology, that to play it safe is just silly. Nowadays, almost any player will know at least a little bit about the Great Wheel and its inhabitants (even if just by looking at a Monster Manual), but throw in something completely new and alien to their understanding of the planes and how they function across multiple realities and different Prime worlds.... And it gets even more fun.

For right now, though I am not doing a treatment to ALL races of law or their realms, I am for sure working on Modrons and related technological themes including any and all mechanoids on another thread here:
/forum/planes-technology-mechanoids

My thoughts are in salvaging the last vestiges of Nirvana (from AD&D planes), Regulus, and the Modrons (and proving all the naysayers wrong - those which think that the Modrons' days are numbered.... show them just how flexible orderly laws can be in times of great need or duress. ). That way, they can remain intact in a 4e cosmology, and as well have access to all realms in a PS or variant cosmology as well. But that's just my current line of thinking... I am trying to tie in a few dark corners which I felt were unlit, wrap up old problems, and start in on new publication ideas. My thoughts are: prehistoric/beatific settings, technology/mechanoids, and immortals/ascension. This particular thread is covering the prehistoric side of things in the fact that it is all preparation for working on content about the predecessors to the Guardinals, their equivalent older cousins, the Dinopriminals.

And though my specific campaign setting doesn't deal with the Beastlands themselves internally, Nym does have some pretty deep connections with the plane and its powers. And yes, I realize that the Guardinals hail from Elysium.... Dorks. just kidding. I just think they would have been better off being from a beatific plane like the Beastlands.

So, did I cover everything there? I hope so.....

Tue, 2010-01-05 13:25

#70

xidoraven

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Re: Guardinals, the Beastlands, and other outsiders

In regard to your mention (in our IM conversation) to Lords of Chaos, I understand now what I was missing before. I think those WOULD be helpful and cool as a deity write-up for a future project. 'Planes of Tech' is first, and then I personally can move on to Law and Chaos, after I finish Immortals (Inath) and finalize the concepts for the Nymian Beastlands (my next big campaign setting focus - including the new Pyrrothian Cosmology concepts I made this last year).

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