Golems and elementals...

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Anime Fan's picture
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Golems and elementals...

This is a question that's been nagging me for some time... I know that golems are created with bound elemental spirits, but I'm wondering if the spirits can ever be freed from their respective golems! If a golem is destroyed, does the animating elemental die too, or is it returned to its home plane? Just wondering...

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Golems and elementals...

Where did you read golems were created with bound elemental spirits? That's a new one to me.

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Golems and elementals...

'Clueless' wrote:
Where did you read golems were created with bound elemental spirits? That's a new one to me.

3.5 Monster Manual, under the general golem description. Page 134.

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Webmonkey
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Golems and elementals...

Ahhhh y'learn something every day huh? Eye-wink

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Factor
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Golems and elementals...

I personally say they aren't made with elemental spirits in the first place. an elemental spirit is usually part of it's home plane so it dosen't much matter whether it lived or not.

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Golems and elementals...

I say they return to their respective planes. It's sort of like a summoning but with a permanent (until dispelled) binding. But really, I kind of agree with weishan. You're not binding an Efreet or other individual being, you're binding an elemental. Elementals, while they can be intelligent, remain non-unique pieces of their plane of origin. When they die, they become part of the plane. So, if you the purpose of your question is whether or not at some later point in time you would meet a very pissed of elemental that remembers you binding it, then the answer is probably no.

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Golems and elementals...

Minor elemental spirits, in all likelihood. Small elementals at best, or even elementites. Since creating a golem isn't considered to be an evil act, it's likely that their intelligence is generally 4 or less - they're more like placid domestic animals than sapient beings.

However, in first edition there was a percentage chance that the enslaved elemental spirit would become enraged and rebel.

I'd also point out that this is simply the spiritual essence of the elemental, not actual elemental material. This is the true elemental; the fire, earth, water, or whatever is only stuff the spirit is animating. A nimblewright (MMII) is supposed to be empowered by an air elemental, but I don't think it's filled with physical air.

Ravenloft's Van Richten's Guide to the Created put a sinister twist on this idea, having golems on the Demiplane of Dread empowered by the spirits of humans bound unnaturally to nonliving substances, ripped out of their still-living bodies.

Shawn Muder of Realms of Evil once created a special elemental whose job was to destroy constructs and free the enslaved elementals within.

Yes, I'd absolutely say that the elemental inside of a slain golem returns to its home plane unharmed. It's only the magical bonds that have been destroyed, not the spirit itself.

Jem
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Golems and elementals...

Countering the SRD's own description, though, it is to be subtly noted that the construction of a flesh golem requires animate dead... not to say that this actually animates the golem with an undead spirit rather than an elemental, but little quirks in the rules like that always make you think. :^)

'ripvanwormer' wrote:
However, in first edition there was a percentage chance that the enslaved elemental spirit would become enraged and rebel.

That's still the case -- 3.5 SRD gives a cumulative 1% chance per round of combat that a golem goes berserk, and thereafter is no longer controlled by its creator.

Personally, I've always been a fan of wacky, variant golems. What about an iron golem... of cold iron? A stone golem... of voidstone? Consider the stressed-out life of the gem golem from the Plane of Mineral, or what utility there might be in creating an ice golem or salt golem, animated by a water elemental. Perhaps an obsidian golem could contain a fire elemental; a golem of amethyst or other crystal, a being from Radiance. Since golems do have abilities that would seem to arise from their elemental nature -- clay golems heal when acid damage is applied, for instance, while stone golems can cast slow -- there might be advantages to binding such unusual spirits as golems.

...hee. I wonder what would happen if you tried to make a flesh golem out of the flesh of one of the dead gods on the Astral...

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Golems and elementals...

'Jem' wrote:
...hee. I wonder what would happen if you tried to make a flesh golem out of the flesh of one of the dead gods on the Astral...

Not funny! Very frightening. Hiding in a corner and crying now.

on a more serious note though, wouldn't they be more like stone or iron golems since the dead gods aren't exactly fleshey.

420
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Golems and elementals...

'Anime Fan' wrote:
If a golem is destroyed, does the animating elemental die too, or is it returned to its home plane?
To answer your question: Usually, if a golem is destroyed its elemental spirit simply returns to its native plane.

However, according to the article Monsters of the Lost City there are exceptions.

Golem Remnant

Quote:
With the passage of countless ages, the majority of any guardians and sentinels that survived the ancient cataclysm long since died or moved to different regions. Yet one category of creature in particular remained at their posts: constructs. The golems and other animated guardians created by the ancients simply remained at their posts, patient and silent, awaiting new orders that would never come. Eventually, the elements wore down even these ancient constructs, and their bodies fell apart from disuse.

Yet so strong was the binding magic that anchored the animating elemental spirits to these ancient golems that when the bodies died, their elemental "souls" died as well -- yet they did not return to the elemental planes once their bodies wasted away. Still bound to a body that no longer existed, these disembodied elemental spirits transformed into strange undead known today as golem remnants.

What's really strange is that these elemental spirits become type: undead. So that also answers the question, "Are there undead elementals?" I guess.

-420

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Golems and elementals...

The biggest problem is the question if the true elementals do have spirits?
There is an elemental force of their own element an infused negative and positive energy is guiding their every thought, but I don't think their thoughts and deciding is attributed to a matter of soul or other kind of spirit mumbojumbo.

True elementals are beings of pure element and their intelligence is very alien and wondrous, but there is no concrete evidence of a individual spirit or soul animating this entities. I think that every true elemental originally has the same starting intelligence and like some sort of elemental thinking robot can expirience life if bound on another plane and create their own souls while being influenced by alien environment,

There are other beings like genies, neirids, azers... living on the elemental planes that have an origin that is not uniquely tied to their own element and such beings could have spirits. In D&D even animals can have spirits and they are spiritually tied to Beastlands.

I may be ranting for nothing, because I'm not really sure what are the Elemental Lords, but I'll try to find something about them in some of the older books(Hallowed Grounds, The Inner Planes).

EDIT
The Inner Planes, Planescape book says there are those uber powerful elemental prinvces of Good and Evil and they wage wars, and fight for influence of other elemental beings.
These Princes have mortal worshipers, so they might have a unifying spirit that defines the other pure elementals who are influenced by one single lord. But no mortal worshiper becomes a petitioner in the inner planes, because the elements are too primal to hold the soul together.

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Golems and elementals...

'Duster' wrote:
True elementals are beings of pure element

Nope. They're beings of pure spirit. They're just connected to elements.

A fire elemental isn't made out of fire; it's made out of the spirit of fire, and as such it has the ability to turn the fire that surrounds it into a corporeal body.

The Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix III was very clear on this point.

From page 4:

"An elemental in the strictest sense of the word is a spiritual creature found only on the planes of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water that inhabits its respective element. It flows freely throughout its plane, and when it wants to interact with its environment, it can assume a material form by wrapping a portion of elemental force around itself. (This resultant 'body" isn't really the elemental at all.) And the same is true of paraelementals and quasielementals. Both are free-willed spirits that shape bodies for themselves out of their environments."

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Golems and elementals...

'Jem' wrote:
...hee. I wonder what would happen if you tried to make a flesh golem out of the flesh of one of the dead gods on the Astral...

Monte Cook statted out godsflesh golems in his d20 book Requiem For A God.

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Golems and elementals...

I've mostly thought of the flesh of dead gods on the Astral as metallic, considering that this is the source of the githyanki silver swords.
A Guide to the Astral describes them as rocky (p36), though.

Jem
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Golems and elementals...

'ripvanwormer' wrote:
Monte Cook statted out godsflesh golems in his d20 book Requiem For A God.

I will be sodding buggered. ...no real comment, just impressed that the idea's been published.

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Golems and elementals...

'Dunamin' wrote:
I've mostly thought of the flesh of dead gods on the Astral as metallic, considering that this is the source of the githyanki silver swords.

Despite what A Guide to the Astral Plane said, I'm inclined to think they're actually made from the silvery substance of Astral conduits, since conduits seem to be essentially the same thing as the silver cords githyanki swords are designed to sever, only on a larger scale, connecting the Outer Planes to the Material rather than connecting astral projections to their material bodies.

The description of a silver sword in the current edition as "a column of silvery liquid" also suggests to me something that's essentially immaterial in origin, like a conduit, rather than a true metal. Not even a divine metal forged from the remnants of dead belief.

If the silver used to make the swords is mined from dead gods, it's an extremely rare substance, an exotic mineral found only within the dead bones or flesh of certain gods, or gods of a certain pantheon, or even one god in particular (for example, perhaps githyanki have only found it within the corpse of Aoskar). I seriously doubt that you'll find an entire god made of it, let alone every dead god entirely made of the substance of githyanki swords. That'd make the element too common.

Of course, astral conduits are pretty common, but I imagine the technique used to turn that stuff into a usable alloy is extremely difficult.

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Golems and elementals...

Hmm, expanding on that idea, perhaps god isles (or just certain few of them) are where such conduits may be shaped and refined into the material central to silver swords?
Imagine if you will, Astral conduits drawn to such sources of divine remnants, like an electric arc to a conducting material, that gradually “induce” veins of the silvery material.

In any case, I certainly agree that both the material and methods used for extraction and refinement should be hard to come by, a secret known to precious few beyond the githyanki. Perhaps the chances of vein development is connected to the late god’s divine rank, for instance?

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Golems and elementals...

'Dunamin' wrote:
Hmm, expanding on that idea, perhaps god isles (or just certain few of them) are where such conduits may be shaped and refined into the material central to silver swords? Imagine if you will, Astral conduits drawn to such sources of divine remnants, like an electric arc to a conducting material, that gradually “induce” veins of the silvery material.

That's an interesting idea. I like it.

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Golems and elementals...

There's the druidic sect from Eberron's Eldeen Reaches who believe that binding elementals as unnatural enslavement. They'd be the one of the few to argue about what creating golems (and airships, lightning rails and a bunch of other things) does to elementals. They may of course be completely wrong, but it's something they believe.

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