Oh I certainly understand the fascination, I'm a history geek myself, but it can be tricky on public forums is all. :-/ I wish I knew of some forums that were more accustomed to such topics.
God in Planescape (Please don't light me on fire)
Thu, 2007-11-22 01:09
#53
God in Planescape (Please don't light me on fire)
Thu, 2007-11-22 01:34
#54
God in Planescape (Please don't light me on fire)
If you're going to dismiss the mythological structure of the deity you're adapting into the game, I don't see any point in bothering with even carrying the name.
:mrgreen: You mean like calling him Yannah like I suggested?
Thu, 2007-11-22 01:54
#55
God in Planescape (Please don't light me on fire)
As I see it, the Seven Heavens have a single mystic ruler of sorts because Lawful Good types believe in authority. I wouldn't identify it with any deity. In fact, I have mixed feelings about treating it as a person. Dante's mysticism resembled the work of Plotinus and Aristotle. And their supreme unities didn't even notice the world's existence.
I see the entity in the Seventh Heaven as a manifestation of the plane, reconciling the beliefs of LG hermits and LG soldiers. Elysium and Arborea don't have quite such a unified focus because their petitioners beliefs didn't encourage it. Instead, Elysium has Prince Talisid and the famous prototype for the adventuring band. Belief in that plane helps to strengthen everyone who works towards Good -- almost as if they have a Divine Manifestation looking out for them. Makes a nice contrast with the baernaloths of the Demented who horde power for themselves (going so far as to link themselves to their plane in ways more arcane than belief, so they can keep their power mostly secret).
Thu, 2007-11-22 01:56
#56
God in Planescape (Please don't light me on fire)
Yeah, that's the kind of thing I'm interested in.
I love history and theology but I tend to think that one should consider it a Planescape Topic first and Religious topic second. Which a lot of people may find hard since it seems less important.
Let's face it, Mount Celestia is very clearly based off of Dante's version of Paradise. Likewise, the Nine Hells are based upon the Inferno. Asmodeus works better at the bottom of the Nine Hells because he's less polarizing than Lucifer despite the fact that he's Satan in every single important matter. The difference is that people are able to seperate him from his place while respecting the Mythological roots. Simultaneously, the Heavens feel a tad empty because....
1. The Angels aren't warring against Hell.
2. There's no God for them to venerate at the top of Celestia or any Ubber-Angel like Bel serves as the Ubber-Pit Fiend.
3. We don't know what the purpose of Mount Celestia is like we do with the Nine Hells.
There's no making it *interesting*
See what I mean? Honestly, I think part of my problem is that I seem to unable to let go of my comprehension of the Story-Mythology of God less so than the actual specifics. The "pop culture YVHS" seems more relevant to me in this context than that of a scholar's view of it.
Thu, 2007-11-22 14:13
#57
God in Planescape (Please don't light me on fire)
Yeah, that's the kind of thing I'm interested in.
I love history and theology but I tend to think that one should consider it a Planescape Topic first and Religious topic second. Which a lot of people may find hard since it seems less important.
Let's face it, Mount Celestia is very clearly based off of Dante's version of Paradise. Likewise, the Nine Hells are based upon the Inferno. Asmodeus works better at the bottom of the Nine Hells because he's less polarizing than Lucifer despite the fact that he's Satan in every single important matter. The difference is that people are able to seperate him from his place while respecting the Mythological roots. Simultaneously, the Heavens feel a tad empty because....
1. The Angels aren't warring against Hell.
2. There's no God for them to venerate at the top of Celestia or any Ubber-Angel like Bel serves as the Ubber-Pit Fiend.
3. We don't know what the purpose of Mount Celestia is like we do with the Nine Hells.
There's no making it *interesting*
See what I mean? Honestly, I think part of my problem is that I seem to unable to let go of my comprehension of the Story-Mythology of God less so than the actual specifics. The "pop culture YVHS" seems more relevant to me in this context than that of a scholar's view of it.
The sixth layer, Jovar, is The Glittering Heaven. Its hills are studded with precious gemstones that glitter in the light.
Yetsirah, The Heavenly City is a huge seven-layered ziggurat, with a large staircase on each face connecting the terraces of each layer. The stones that make up the city are made of precious gemstones, similar to those seen around the surrounding hills. On the topmost terrace is the bridge of al-Sihal, formed of pure light. Here lies the portal to the topmost layer of Celestia, Chronias; it is guarded by a powerful solar named Xerona who judges who may and may not enter.
Chronias is the topmost and final layer of Celestia, also called The Illuminated Heaven. There is no real account or description of Chronias, as no entity that has entered has ever returned.
It is thought to be the ultimate goal of the inhabitants of Celestia to ascend the layers one by one in order to reach Chronias, where their souls will join with the essence of the plane itself.
Curiously, our own encyclopedia places Ahura Mazda in the Seventh Heaven. I guess that makes historical sense, if you take my view of religious history.
Plotinus explains the purpose of merging with Heaven very well, I think. Petitioners of other planes could do something similar, but not in such an organized way. Even Baator has the Pit of Flame that symbolizes devil law and lets them earn Pit Fiend status (a closer link to the plane than they had before). Except it doesn't appear in the final layer. The Ninth Hell instead contains Asmodeus, the symbol of power that may subvert the official law. See also Broken Glass.
Mon, 2007-11-26 13:57
#58
YHVH
Yeah, I'm sure there is some kind of Power of Lawful Good on Chronias... just not YHVH! I wanted to comment on something that was said earlier, that YHVH should be given a LG alignment because that's how His worshipers SAW Him. In THAT case, alignment is no longer objective and even the most objectively vile deity could receive a "Good" alignment (such as the bloodthirsty Aztec gods) just because the follower wrongly saw him/her that way! If YHVH is going to be in the game, His alignment should be assigned the same way you'd assign an alignment to a purely fictional deity who behaved the same way, using the material in the Bible as a basis for His actions and thoughts (What other source IS there???) I'd place Him, however, not on Mechanus, but on a Plane of His own in His own cosmology (Earth), which can be reached via portals or plane shift. If He actually dwelled anywhere in the Great Wheel, He'd be spending a LOT of time trying to overthrow all the other Powers and convert the masses, whether His alignment is LG or LN... The other Powers would have to unite to stop Him, and there'd be the mother of all battles to determine who was stronger! I just don't see Him tolerating the other deities of ANY alignment, not if He's a "Jealous God" as He describes Himself in the Bible...
Mon, 2007-11-26 17:41
#59
God in Planescape (Please don't light me on fire)
I just don't see Him tolerating the other deities of ANY alignment, not if He's a "Jealous God" as He describes Himself in the Bible...
Except the irony of YVHS is that, Pre-Christ, he doesnt' WANT converts. YVHS doesn't care about Egyptians or Assyrians or Greeks. They're not HIS people.
The idea that he'd accept a follower from one of the WRONG race is sorta peery to folk before Jesus said the Good News applied to everybody.
Edit:
Interestingly, I did once run a Ravenloft scenario, "A Touch of Death" where I revealed that my version of Har'akir had Anktepot be the Pharoah of the Book of Exodus, here was the Myth I had.
"And The God of the Slaves came unto Horus-Re angrilly when Akhtepot slew the First Born of each child of Israel.
"YOU! What treachery has your Chosen Vessel worked upon my people?" The Nameless God said.
Horus-Re said "Speak, God of the Mountain."
The Nameless One said "Did not Pharoah invite my people as friends? Did they not say unto the brothers and families of Josef that they would be welcome amongst the people of the Nile?"
Horus-Re nodded unto the Nameless One. "This is so."
The Nameless One said "Anketpot's father has hideously wronged them! He clapped them in bonds and whipped their flesh. Now he has taken the heir of each of my sons!"
Horus-Re said "And for this he has been cast unto Apep's mouth instead of inheriting his kingdom."
The Nameless one continued. "Yet, Anktepot has continued this persecution. He has foresworn the promise of his ancestors and now taken the first born child of each of my children! Their blood cries out for justice!"
Horus-Re sat in thought for a long time. "Ma'at must be upheld. The abuses heaped upon the people of Josef go beyond mere Anktepot. For the decades of suffering your Chosen people have endured, I give thee leave to deliver an equal amount of suffering upon my own."
The Nameless One nodded to the Divine Pharoah's justice. "So be it. I shall take my people from this land and to their own. There, we shall no longer meet."
Isis then spoke up to her son. "No! This cannot be justice! None argue that the Nameless One's people have been greviously injured but to allow such a curse to fall onto our own faithful is an atrocity beyond belief."
Set laughed at them both and said "Why should we care what happens to a small race of goat herds and slaves? Ours is a great nation that has won the right to rule by force."
Thoth spoke his own wisdom. "Many more People of the Nile will suffer than there are Children of the Nameless One."
Horus-Re spoke simply. "The binding word of Pharoah has been broken and our people dishonored. Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand is the law that we share. So it is spoken, so it shall come to pass. Will you grant mercy unto the Nine's people, Nameless One?"
The Nameless One said "Only should Anketepot do the same for they have indulged from my people's suffering."
The god then paused. "Then should Set harden the heart of Pharoah against the slave's plight, then the full wrath of your vengeance will be felt. Anketepot will suffer a fate worse than all of those whom suffer these curses if he fails to correct his error."
"In the meantime, I decree that one of the babes that escaped this sorrow shall be welcome in the court of Pharoah as a brother to him."
Wed, 2007-11-28 12:16
#60
Jesus
Oh, and about Jesus being "Good"; yes, He said and did a lot of Good things, but then He had to go and spoil it all by saying everybody but His worshipers must spend eternity in Hell! Even YHVH of the Old Testament let up on His enemies once they were dead! In Planescape, by contrast, nobody sends you to Baator or the Abyss but yourself, thru your own actions. And how long you stay there depends on how long you want to remain Evil... anybody who wants to change alignment has a chance at leaving the Lower Planes (even some Fiends have risen!) So Jesus is LN overall, not LG/NG, in my opinion... And YES I mean IN THE GAME... though what I've said is not inaplicable to real life, either...
Wed, 2007-11-28 19:37
#61
God in Planescape (Please don't light me on fire)
Oh, and about Jesus being "Good"; yes, He said and did a lot of Good things, but then He had to go and spoil it all by saying everybody but His worshipers must spend eternity in Hell!
The largest denomination of Christianity in the world doesn't believe he actually said that.
So, I tend to think he didn't.
Wed, 2007-11-28 22:32
#62
God in Planescape (Please don't light me on fire)
[mod]
At this point I think we've scraped the bottom of the barrel on this particular topic.
We've established a few variant alignment possibilities and their reasonings why. We've pointed out existing elements that can be easily modified into use in any particular DM's game. And we have a few example writeups that fit one or the other camp of opinions.
We've also throughly explored this subject's true relevance within Planescape, which was more interesting to me as an administrator. It seems that we came to the conclusion that 'God in Planescape' is such a complex subject that it requires so many qualifications, so much hand-waving and theological equivocation to even begin to work in the setting - that it's neigh irrelevant to even bring up in Planescape.
Given that - I think it's time to throw in the towel on this one.
What I'm going to do is link to this thread and the previous incarnations of it from our FAQ. It'll be a closed topic, but anyone with simular questions should be directed to these threads. They'll be able to find whatever answers they need here. I don't think there's much more that we could cover that wouldn't be divisive, or simply expand upon the various camps of thought that we already have established. It's pretty clear there's no single answer, and if we keep trying to find one it'll just be an exercise in frustration and futility.
Thank you to everyone for keeping your heads in the right place on this thread, and I hope you'll enjoy applying all of that energy to other threads on this forum.
[/mod]
I'm fascinated by Christian mythology (there really are lot of mythically brilliant, incredibly rich portions of the Bible) and tend to go off on a rant about it without warning.
I'll leave it be on that note anyway; I don't think I'm really adding anything to the conversation beyond continually asking "Why are we doing this?" and "Old Testament God is totally St. Cuthbert!".