GM needs advice

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Wed, 2009-01-07 20:27

CatsEyeYellow

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GM needs advice

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Hi guys,

I am new to these forums and have stumbled on them during sort of a nostalgia binge. I used to run Planescape campaign from 1995 to 1998 and then, somehow, I slipped away, both from PS and AD&D.

I came back, briefly, during 2001 3e world wide mania with hysterical, never finished, much maligned, epic campaign 'If Multiverse Wants to Survive...ELVES MUST DIE!' and then I slipped back, quietly, into that PSless night.

Meanwhile, I GMed or played: Unknown Armies, Vampire (in various incarnations), Mutants and Masterminds (quite unsuccessfully), Call of Cthulhu (quite successfully), Kult, Warhammer and Dark Heresy. So, it was quite eventful...

Several days ago, I found the last print version of Dragon magazine (#359) and there was this nice list of iconic villains from various D&D settings (and I can say that besides old WOD and CoC no other RPG system can boast such an illustrious list of bad guys, but I digress) so, I read Graz'zt's entry and then Iggwilv entry and suddenly I had this epiphany:

I want to run a Planescape campaign!

But while I knew where I will start I was pretty unsure of anything else. Time away from various d20 games has dulled my senses for level based, rules heavy, games. Also, as I already said, I knew where I wanted to start but I am unsure where to go next so I decided to try to find help online.

So, here is the big idea> what if PCs (or one PC) were somehow descendants of Graz'zt. I mean they are just 'regular' (low-level) guys living in Sigil (or on some prime) and they don't know that their great-great-great-grandmother has done the nasty with the Dark Prince of Abyss.

Suddenly, while they are in the middle of their usual daily grind, they are literally summoned in front of that huge nalfeshnee that presides over some court in Sigil, Judge Gabberslug, and they are in the midst of the reading of the last will. It seems that Graz'zt is dead and has left through his loyal steward Vuron instructions for the case of his death.

All the usual suspects are there in the courtroom: Iggwilv, maybe Iuz (he is demigod so I suppose he would be unable to enter Sigil), Graz'zt's first wife Princess Elazalag, Eclavdara, Rule-of-Threes, etc...

And PCs are proclaimed to be Graz'zt's heirs. There is huge uproar. Everyone is obviously pissed off except Vuron who intends to follow his late master’s instructions to the letter...

So that's about it for now. I don't have anything further except that I like this general Wanted meets Amber animation directed by Wes Anderson and drawn by diTerlizzi feel...

So basically I would love to DM epic PS campaign with lot of the 'classic' influences (primarily from the Gord the Rogue series) with lots of the bad guys, with the PCs in the midst of things but...

1. I am unsure of the system? Should it be 3e or should I even go back to 2e AD&D? Maybe some other system altogether (Everway?)

2. Where do I go after the already described beginnings? How and do I involve factions? How should I manage PCs amidst all these powerful beings? Why has Graz'zt named PCs as his heirs? What is his REAL plan? How other powers that be react to all these?

And so on and on...

I know that I sound like Xaositect but I hope that you'll help me jazz this thing up. Any ideas are more then welcome.

__________________

"Would this perhaps deposit us within the City of Greyhawk?" Gord asked as casually as he could.
"Never, good sir!" the gnome reassured him.

Wed, 2009-01-07 23:19

Wexquif

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Well, honestly, I don't know

Well, honestly, I don't know much about Graz'zt, but I know he is a demon. I really cannot see demon holding a trail, that seems more like a Baatezu thing. You could easily subsitute one of the Lords of Nine in your idea and I think it would work perfectly.

Thu, 2009-01-08 01:11

Clueless

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Alterntaively - just to be

Alterntaively - just to be devil's advocate - I could see this as a plot by Graz'zt (not dead) to see how things would play out amongst his 'allies' to see where their politics lie, and to see if the PCs are worth his time for manipulation later...

Thu, 2009-01-08 01:25

Clueless

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But to answer your

But to answer your questions:

System: 3.0/3.5 is a pretty well balanced system. There's a lot to learn, but it has a lot going for it in terms of logical and predictable numbers (aka no Thac0 and arcane proficiency kit system). Statistically it's a lot cleaner, and the support for it is wider. Check out our own PSCS for 3.x for example, and you'll have a lot of feats, classes, spells and the like.

4.0 is less supported - we're working on a conversion right now though so if you're up for a bit of playtesting that might be a way to go.

Must of your choice for system is going to depend on your players. Do they have a preference?Are their brains inclined towards a particular system (We have a conversion for Planescape to Mage on the site, and I know there's one for GURPS floating around too).

What is your priority for traits in your system choice? That'll help me give you more advice. I've run, or am familar, with more than 20 different ones...

Plot: Well, my previous post gave you one idea. Your PCs could all be tieflings, that's certainly an easily believable race to have Graz'zt origins. He could be playign them for a lark. He could have an interest in them from prophecy, or some other such goodie. I've considered having an NPC take a dive through the Ma'at river to gain visions to set off a plot before. There's literally thousands of directions you could go from here. I would leave the factions off till you have a) player interest in them, and b) the PCs out of immediate danger with the Abyss. You don't *have* to include the factions at first. If you do later - Doomguard, Sons of Mercy, Xaositects, and ex-Godsmen come to mind as ones that could have an interest in the matters at hand, be it the chaotic nature of the proceedings, the need to 'save' the PCs from a fate worse than death, the craziness, or the implications of a group of mortals inheriting layers of the Abyss as a way to become a being like unto a god....

Thu, 2009-01-08 09:11

(Reply to #4) #5

CatsEyeYellow

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WOW! Thanks on prompt

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WOW! Thanks on prompt replies.

I would be interested in playtesting 4.0 rules for PS. I just have bought them and didn't have time to read through them though.

But anyway I digress:

1. I am familiar with 3.0 (3.5 not so) but I have run it using Ken Hood's Grim-n-Gritty system. So basically, maybe that fact, coupled with my players’ huge crush on Warhammer, is the answer? They, meaning my mates, like a lot of role-playing, clearly defined social roles for their characters (although I have already decided to introduce so called Gentlemen of the Planes social category/term which is polite euphemism for scoundrels), intuitive, fast and deadly combat but also potential for epic, high magic stuff with a huge pinch of bizarre humor thrown in the mix for good measure. Or maybe better said they like bizarre, potentially high magic setting juxtaposed with their beginning characters who are, well, clueless berks or lowlifes.

I myself am inclined to go with the 2nd ed Player's Option and stuff because during my teenage years I could have written a masters on that stuff Oh, it will also be pre-faction war Sigil. Changes wrought by FW never did agree with me...

2. Plot> Tieflings. Of course (non-horned, varied, pre-3.0 kind), but I would say not only them. There is no reason for Graz'zt not to go around spreading the love in other guises and shapes. Genasi certainly, humans definitely, half-elves why not, maybe even some gith thrown in for a good measure or even maybe some of the half-human races from Eberron setting (that seems quite nice and pulpy btw). I like variety what can I say! What I fully intend is to (secretly) give each player Abyssal heritor feat Spawn of the Dark Prince or maybe Blood of the Witch Queen feat from Dragon 359 or something similar (what? if you have idea chip in). What I am sure is that I want to concentrate on family relations akin to Amber series but with vintage PS/Abyssal touch. I would also love to establish some sort of the base for PCs in Sigil (like Graz'zt's mansion/temple in Lower Ward or something like that), give them something to do and think over (maybe there are some stipulations and obligations as a part of his last will), maybe they have now to participate in the Blood War in some capacity and of course there will be assassination attempts...)

Keep ideas coming guys! Thanks and it is great to see that PS generates same dedication as 10 years ago. It just shows that you can not keep a good setting down.

__________________

"Would this perhaps deposit us within the City of Greyhawk?" Gord asked as casually as he could.
"Never, good sir!" the gnome reassured him.

Thu, 2009-01-08 11:02

(Reply to #5) #6

Dunamin

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CatsEyeYellow wrote: I

CatsEyeYellow wrote:

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I would be interested in playtesting 4.0 rules for PS. I just have bought them and didn't have time to read through them though.

You may then want to keep an eye on this 4E PS game that we are about to start on Planewalker - Center of All wanted us to launch around Jan 15th. Most of the community's work on faithful Planescape conversions with 4E mechanics can be found here.

CatsEyeYellow wrote:

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I am familiar with 3.0 (3.5 not so) but I have run it using Ken Hood's Grim-n-Gritty system. So basically, maybe that fact, coupled with my players’ huge crush on Warhammer, is the answer? They, meaning my mates, like a lot of role-playing, clearly defined social roles for their characters (although I have already decided to introduce so called Gentlemen of the Planes social category/term which is polite euphemism for scoundrels), intuitive, fast and deadly combat but also potential for epic, high magic stuff with a huge pinch of bizarre humor thrown in the mix for good measure. Or maybe better said they like bizarre, potentially high magic setting juxtaposed with their beginning characters who are, well, clueless berks or lowlifes.

Well, the Planescape setting certainly should provide for the flavor needs you prescribe. Actually, I happen to be adventuring with KenHood in EN World's L4W living setting. Perhaps ask him directly for how to best employ the parts of his system you like?

Thu, 2009-01-08 11:53

(Reply to #6) #7

CatsEyeYellow

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L4W living setting? Could

L4W living setting? Could you please elaborate? I could certainly google it but somehow I feel that 'tout' would be more useful.

I could definately write to Ken. I was a huge fan of his G'n'G system.

__________________

"Would this perhaps deposit us within the City of Greyhawk?" Gord asked as casually as he could.
"Never, good sir!" the gnome reassured him.

Thu, 2009-01-08 11:59

Clueless

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Webmonkey

Joined: 2008-06-30

Given what you've said of

Given what you've said of your players, I would stick in the 3.x systems that you've been using - I don't think pulling the players back into 2nd (nostalgic though it is for you as the GM) would be the best way to tweak their brains for the game. You've got plenty on your plate as it is in getting them introduced to the setting, no reason to add to your difficulties with a system that doesn't do intuitive and fast *anything*...

Thu, 2009-01-08 12:47

(Reply to #8) #9

CatsEyeYellow

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Hmmm...you are right.

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Hmmm...you are right.

So that means back to 3.0 G'n'G...which I personally don't mind.

I also LOVE prophecy/river Ma'at idea...So basically I think I will have Graz'zt hiding from something he saw during the swim in the river Ma'at and is using PCs to smoke out possible traitors and to push the 'plot' forward and avoid this personal/abyssal Ragnorak.

I'll now risk sounding like Iron Chef but here it is:

1. I feel that in order to satisfy my nostalgia urge this campaign has to have a number of old Gygaxian tropes and characters. Is there anyone here familiar with old Gord the Rogue novels and early planar appearances in DnD and AD&D products?

2. So, in a word it has to have Tharizdun (you know in that old all-encompassing evil way). Maybe even Theopart (anyone remembers theorparts)...

3...maybe even Rexfelis and Catlord's manse...Although it is clear that current catlord is a female. Wasn't that addressed in some supplement or other?

4. It has to have Sigil in huuuuge quantities. My party loves Sigil.

5. Sugar. Lots of sugar. It's good for your teeth...

Keep ideas coming this is the best I felt about RPG in a year or two...

__________________

"Would this perhaps deposit us within the City of Greyhawk?" Gord asked as casually as he could.
"Never, good sir!" the gnome reassured him.

Sat, 2009-01-10 22:02

#10

Zimrazim

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Joined: 2007-01-14

If you have a copy of

If you have a copy of Gygax's "Night Arrant," you could read "The Weird Occurrence in Odd Alley" again. I've wondered if the city in that story was something of a Sigil prototype...

You know, I never really liked Tharizdun all that much. He was too much of a "generic evil bad guy" and didn't seem to have very much by way of interesting personality quirks. (Iuz and Graz'zt have plenty of those.)

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Sun, 2009-01-11 07:16

(Reply to #10) #11

CatsEyeYellow

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I HAD 'Night Arrant'

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I HAD 'Night Arrant' till it was unlawfully taken from me I always wondered the same thing. That was the story with vampire hostel so to say, am I right?

Tharizdun is like cthulhuoid ancient evil while Graz'zt and Iuz are like really, really good bad guys but for this campaign I had thought something like this:

1. Graz'zt swims in the Ma'at river and has a vision of his demise in a sort of apocalyptic, abyssal Ragnarok scenario with awakened Tharizdun collecting and uniting lower planes. That doesn't sit well with him especially that he doesn't know roads that will take him to that moment.

2. So he decides to die before that happens BUT leaves series of complex instructions for his resurrection with his steward Vuron

3. BUT he knows that since Vuron is not of his blood he couldn't really claim his throne and expect to be obeyed by demons and since his other children (Iuz included) are the very definition of untrustworthy he decides to find his scions that must be somewhere out there as convenient dupes.

4. Enter PCs. Enter Iuz who wants his inheritance. Enter Iggwilv who wants for her boy (Iuz) to go places. Enter Eclavdara who wants to rule in Graz'zt's place. Enter servants of Tharizdun who are planning to wake their god and start the party. Enter Pazuzu, Orcus and Demogorgon who want Graz'zt to stay dead and attack his kingdom and servants at once. Enter Vuron who is slowly manipulating events so that servants of Tharizdun play their hand and that his lord can rise once again.

But I still need more details. Ideas how to make low level PCs viable in this mess. Scenarios ideas. Planar politics ideas.

So keep them coming

__________________

"Would this perhaps deposit us within the City of Greyhawk?" Gord asked as casually as he could.
"Never, good sir!" the gnome reassured him.

Sun, 2009-01-11 12:40

(Reply to #7) #12

Dunamin

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Factor

Joined: 2006-06-13

CatsEyeYellow wrote: L4W

CatsEyeYellow wrote:

L4W living setting? Could you please elaborate? I could certainly google it but somehow I feel that 'tout' would be more useful.

I could definately write to Ken. I was a huge fan of his G'n'G system.

Living 4th Edition is EN World's official living world for playing D&D with 4E rules. The setting is designed for modularity so participants gradually can expand on the world, and themed around small mobile islands and Greek/Roman mythology.

Ken and I are playing in the Closed Eye adventure there, an investigative and mystery-solving focused game.

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