Githyanki Organizations

This strikes me as so obvious I can't believe it's not happening already. If we follow previous propositions that there are other Githyanki Liches in existence beyond the Lich Queen (hiding out in the Negative Energy Plane or some other suitably distant locale) one of them could very easily impersonate her.

Supposedly no other Githyanki actually knew what Vlaakith's phylactery was, they can very well know that her original body was destroyed, but they should anticipate that she comes back in a new one. There's very little to stop another Githyanki lich, particularly a female one, from stepping into her place. It's very difficult, even with potent magic (which a competent lich could block) to tell two liches apart, especially if one of the bodies has just been destroyed.

Heck, I bet the Githyanki would even likely rally behind a suitable impersonator. They've been ruled by one person for so long there's little desire to see the power structure change (especially if the level limit no longer exists, or as 3e and some of the stats given imply, never really did in the first place) so if an impersonator can pull the right moves and say the right lines, the Githyanki, even if the wise among them suspect, might fall into line. Especially given that no matter how may Githyanki were present for the Invasion, that is at best some small fraction of their race. The rest of the Githyanki, especialy the lower ranks, are probably still trying to decide whether Vlaakith's really dead or its all some elaborate ploy.

By the way, was it ever decided just what world was invaded in Incursion anyway?

Actually, who are we to say that it didn't happen already? Perhaps many times? How many times did a renegade 'yanki lich get a bunch of planewalkers ("adventurers") together to destroy Vlaakith so that he/she/it can replace her?

I think they do indeed need to be primes (though they could have a planar guide with them) and I think they really should be fromt he world the Githyanki were invading. If the killers of Vlaakith are planars that immediately gives the Githyanki a target to rally around and attempt to take vengeance, with whoever leads that crusade almost certainly emerging as the new leader if victory occurs.

Prime heroes can go back to the prime and have their world suddenly suffer a planar access catastrophy, maybe Eberron style in that it moves out of conjuction for the next thousand years or something, so that the Githyanki can't continue their invasion (I firmly refuse to believe that any one prime world can possible stand up to the whole might of the entire Githyanki race on a crusade of vengeance as oppossed to Vlaakith's little expeditionary incursion force). It might be good if the PCs are assumed to be killed after killing Vlaakith, in which case we can ignore who they might have been, perhaps they are destroyed when the complex comes down on their heads or some such.

On another note,

If the prime world the Githyanki were invading was supposedly their original homeworld, doesn't that imply it was the original homeworld of the entire human race as well? Because the Gith races were originally human? or is it just the world where they finally changed enough to have a truly derivative biology? which was probably an important world in the old Illithid empire.

Maybe they don't. Maybe part of the assumption is that the splintered Githyanki also have a recently conquered Prime world to figure out what to do with.

My assumption was that it was simply the world that Gith (and probably Zerthimon and Vlaakith I) came from. The illithid empire had many worlds under its control; Pharagos was the one that first broke free, and where the most successful resistance got its start. There were surely creatures similar to gith forerunners on other worlds, but they either joined Gith or merged with (or became) humanity.

I once made a list of reasons why I thought the Suel people on Oerth are the descendents of illithid slaves (rampant albinism and near-albinism, they're the oldest known civilization on the world, they had to get their mystic knowledge from somewhere). There's actually a site in Western Oerik on that world filled with the ghosts of millions of gith forerunners who died during the illithid slave rebellion mentioned in one of Chris Pramas' Chainmail campaign articles in Dragon Magazine.

Why were these hypothetical adventurers from Athas able to do what no one has done for millennia? What, aside from those damned epic levels, makes them so special that they not only killed Vlaakith but got away with it?

Besides, I thought you were the one who wanted something different than "some nameless berks from a random Prime went down in a blaze of glory". I'm offering one.

Okay, so here's what we've got so far, as I understand it:

1. Imperialists and monarchists who claim to have the next-in-line to Vlaakith, thus enabling them to continue the line of rule-by-queens. The Vlaakith-to-be is a githyanki noble who has discarded her old life to accept the mantle of Vlaakith.

2. A cabal of generals trying to hold down a swath of Astral cities under martial law. They have a large military presence, but not a lot of political credibility.

3. A sect of Gith-worshipers who are searching for the lost warrior-queen. Prophesies indicate that she is destined to return in the race's darkest hour, and followers have dispatched themselves to all corners of the multiverse in search of her. They are known as the Gith'etkri, or "Githites" by non-gith.

4. A group of githyanki scholars, not interested in warfare, study god-corpses and planar phenomena in remote Astral nebulae and isolated pockets of the Silver Void.

as I proposed in the first thread
and also

5. Negative Energy Plane-based liches, former consorts of Vlaakith's, who are continuing with various nefarious plots. They represent the worst depths of the githyanki.

6. Followers of Tiamat who have clung to the Dragon Alliance (the new term I have just decided) and are now loyal to that draconic power. Some are in it for the power, some are in it out of desperation, and some are truly dedicated to their draconic masters. The latter are rewarded with power, but are almost universally despised by other githyanki, who see subservience to dragons as a self-imposed enslavement. Lots of Draconomicon material comes in here.

7. A strange prophet who believes herself the reincarnation of Gith.

8. (4.) All kinds of small Astral enclaves of non-military githyanki operating under various purposes. I'm really interested in pulling in some stuff from (Monte Cook's) Requiem for a God here, and have them investigate corpi dei.

I'm thinking, for one, that the Khou, for having successfully orchestrated her assassination, will split Githyanki society-- loyalists will seek vengeance, while the majority of Githyanki will follow the Khou, including the attempted reunification of the Gith race.

The division of the Githyanki society is, of course, why the Githyanki have not been able to simply return to Pharagos, lay waste to the entire world, and take trophies from the adventurers who killed their queen. Not to mention, of course, that once she's gone, I can easily see a lot of the fanatic loyalty simply fading-- she's a hell of a Queen, but not much of a martyr, and her predations against her own people will likely be remembered.

I like the idea of a significant portion of the Githyanki adopting the worship of Tiamat, and honoring the dragon pact-- perhaps to the exclusion of reunificiation. I'm running a Dragonstar campaign currently, with the eventual end-game being the PCs overturning the Empire and slaying Mezzenbone. I'm planning on using the Lich Queen's Beloved as one of the turning points of the campaign-- with the Durth'ka'gith remaining loyal to the Emperor afterwards, and some small factions of Gith (Yanki and Zerth alike) joining in the Rebellion.

An obvious head for the githyanki of the Dragon Alliance. She could be trying to subvert her followers, hinting and brainwashing that without Vlaakith, the 'yanki are sitting ducks. Their only hope is to join with the red dragons.

It might help this concept take off if there were a prominent leader (or two) for each group so that they aren't just vague concepts.
The prophet of Gith could lead the Githites.
The descendent of Vlaakith could be the focus of the monarchists with, perhaps, an ambitious aristocrat being the real power.
A particularly nasty Consort of Vlaakith that the others follow.
A legendary loremaster calling for the People to unite and look to the knowledge stored in the corpi dei.

One thing I have noticed is the fact that no one has yet looked at the possibilities of two or more of these groups seeking an alliance. Among the power groups discussed already there are a number of intriquing possibilities,but for now lets just look at the first that leapt out at me.

The prophet who believes herself to be Gith reborn, while depicted as a charismatic leader who won the support of most of the garrison at the fortress she was assigned to, would be hardpressed to find support elsewhere. In taking over the fortress she attacked her commander, thereby breaking that Githyanki cardinal rule of never attacking one another. Plus the support she earned among the troops stationed there was based upon the fact that many had witnessed the extraordinary ablities she had displayed in combat as well as dreams she had on the Prime during these raids. Certainly she might be able to sway some of the rank and file with sheer charisma alone, as there will always be those seeking some cause to believe in, but the true power players in 'yanki society would be unlikely to be swayed by a known dissident. This is where our second, and mostly ignored so far, power block comes in.

The Sha'Sal Khou by their description in "The Lich-Queen's Beloved" are striving for the reunification of the two gith races. It is their hope to eventually raise and army powerful enough to be able to establish and hold a stronghold where the 2 races could live as one again as a single people simply called the gith. To do this though doesn't just mean battling any enemy troops sent against them, but millenia of teachings and beliefs that "they" ( be it 'yanki or 'zerai) were traitorous enemies only slightly less evil then the hated illithids. To defeat an ingrained way of thinking like this they would need an equally powerful symbol to rally around. And if that symbol was a charismatic and proven leader in the battle against their common enemy all the better.

To my way of thinking an alliance of the 2 powergroups makes sense on a number of levels:

1. Gith reborn makes for a rallying cause on many levels, most importantly having the religious clout to combat the "Lich-Queen as God" inroads made by Vlaakith on equal footing.

2. Gith was the savior of both races before the civil war split them in two. Gith reborn provides an end to a battle on two fronts for both species, and truth be known the original reason for their split has never been made known. They have continued this war only because those in charge have told them that it should be so.

3. The Khou bring the political clout among both races that our prophet lacks, as well as some military strength.

4. With the weakening of the Githyanki due to Vlaakith's death, a reunification of the gith species would strengthen them without needing to seek outside help. This would put them in opposition of those in favor of the Dragon Alliance, which only came about because of the seperation of the two species.

For these and other reasons I think we should look at which groups make truly viable power players on their own. On their own both groups make for an interesting idea in the list of proposals made in these threads, but together they would make for a much more serious threat to the 'yanki status quo.

Reviving another ancient thread again...hope that's OK. It seems to me there are three key points about the situation that are lynchpins for the whole discussion of what happens to githyanki society after Vlaakith's demise. There are some things directly related to Vlaakith's death that will have a significant impact on the things to follow, society-wide.

1. Vlaakith's goals during her gambit for godhood were to "become the revered god of the githyanki, cast off the teachings of Gith, and give birth to a new supreme order governed by priests and duthka'giths who have sworn their eternal souls to her". These would be monumentally important for any githyanki that become aware of these facts after her death. Her aspirations for divinity, for starters, would be revolting to the average githyanki. Gith was not a god, and therefore Vlaakith was literally trying to trump Gith. "Casting off the teachings of Gith" makes it even worse (although the exact nature of what she would have replaced them with are not specified). Gith's teachings weren't good enough for her. So she was trying to upstage Gith, both in raw power and philisophical direction. And thereby turn githyanki society ass over teakettle.

Which leaves us with "give birth to a new supreme order governed by priests and duthka'giths who have sworn their eternal souls to her". Oh boy. What we don't see on this list is "and her loyal githyanki subjects". Now I'm sure she would have had lots of those around, but it seems that all of the positions in the upper crust of githyanki society would have been reserved for duthka'giths and a newly established caste of priests. Which basically means that the entire societal layer of githyanki nobles and knights would have gotten a big fat demotion.

Githyanki across the multiverse had been looking forward to sacrificing their every waking moment, and ultimatly their very essense, to fuel this queen's continued existence. They are descendents of many generations of githyanki who had also done this. It is their entire way of life. And now they find out thatshe was doing her best to sell them out, taking advantage of their devotion to the old system to allow her to introduce a brand new system of her own devising. They might be, shall we say, a bit upset. The being they so revered was attempting to utterly invalidate the very historical and social framework that had placed her at the top of the food chain in the first place. If you are a "true believer", there just is no worse possible scenario. It's like a Pope deciding to start his own new religion, slaying priests and pillaging the Vatican's coffers in the process.

My point: First, it would be of the utmost importance for anyone aware of these facts, regardless of any plans they have for the future, to do their best to ensure that all githyanki everywhere are aware of true nature of Vlaakith's actions and motivations. Any scrap of possible evidence would be used to confirm the nature of the events which occured. And remember, githyanki are not treacherous within their own society, being considered "peaceful, polite and respectful" (Guide to the Astral Plane). Githyanki are quick to lie to non-githyanki, but such behavior would be exceptionally shameful among their own kind, particularly regarding something as important as this. As their lifelong "respect for the high-ups" shifted from Vlaakith to the remaining powerful githyanki leaders, the githyanki would be documenting the first-hand accounts of any powerful githyanki that survived the attempted coup to godhood, and a ruthless demand for a true accounting of the events leading up to Vlaakiths' demise would be demanded at all levels. And I suspect, in general, the truth would come out. Despite the obvious advantage to deception, the societal and quasi-religious motivations would push most witnesses to set the record straight with the utmost honesty. These are beings raised to be loyal to the githyanki race first and foremost, and that would mean in this case being truthful about exactly what happened.

Secondly, any githyanki becoming aware of the facts above would probably get physically ill in utter disgust. Their lifelong devotion to Vlaakith would have to be considered devotion that was misplaced, and this would undermine their entire worldview. There would certainly be a few holdouts that ignored the facts, but for the large majority of githyanki society, this would be a crushing philisophical blow.

An interesting question is, if you jettison devotion to the Lich-Queen, what else gets jettisoned? Is anything off limits when someone literally lose their religion? You'd see a range of reactions, for people looking for a substitute lich-queen to people who throw the whole ball of wax out the window due to the fact that the devotion to the lich-queen is what all of githyanki society is based on.

2. The Sha'sal Khou have perhaps done a favor for the githyanki race by dethroning the Lich-Queen, but they have done it by violating several of the fundamental underlying rules of githyanki society. It's a classic "means justified the end" scenario, and githyanki society just isn't terribly flexible in this regard. Although perhaps technically they did not commit githyanki-on-githyanki violence, they will be crucified in the court of public opinion for their involvement in violating this millenia-long taboo. So not only do they have to drum up sympathy for their radical githzerai-loving approach, they are also clearly guilty of harming other githyanki to further their cause. Not the greatest public relations move. For many githyanki, the first time they hear about the Sha'sal Khou, it will be in the same breath as they are told about their shameful disregard for the fundamental ground rules of githyanki society. They have a lot of work ahead of them if they expect to be respected by the average githyanki. Even those that are sympathetic to a cease-fire with the githzerai might shun them for their decidedly un-githyanki tactics

3. Devotion to the Lich-Queen was primarily motivated by the idea that without her, the githyanki would be enslaved again. Tit is a superstition of the githyanki that their freedom was literally incarnated in Vlaakith. Realistic or not, with Vlakith dead, the overwhelming concern would be to avoid enslavement at any cost. Call it a mass paranoia. But this fact would fuel the urge to start a period of rabid isolationism and deemphasis on expansion. Everything, including Gith, goes out the window if the githyanki races loses its freedom, and the guaranteed post-Vlaakith chaos is undeniably the best time in thousands of years for someone to sweep in and crush them. They will be freaking out about this for some time.

Regardless of the factions that arise after these events, all githyanki aware of the Lich-Queen's demise will be discussing the three issues above, and the impact these things have on subsequent events cannot be overstated.

Would it be possible for a faction to develop with the idea of resurrecting a member of the Vlakkith bloodline to resume leadership of the githyanki? Perhaps the Queen's Knights decide the only way to restore order is bring someone back to life who is from the royal bloodline. Just a thought I'm throwing out there.

It wouldn't even be only those with alot to lose in the political scene. The githyanki have maintained status quo since the disappearance of Gith. Alot of the people, from Mlar to the Knights, would want the bloodline reestablished, if only to give them security.

Now imagine the division that would occur between a reincarnated or returned Gith and a resurected Vlaakith bloodline member.

Would the githyanki really accept some lich from the negative plane as their leader? Unless they could prove they were a Vlaakith, I don't think it would work. Then again, if one of the liches is a Vlaakith... there could be another faction based on that! Or the lich could just join the Ascendcy faction. You know, be their ace in the sleeve.

So, are we going with the assumption that Phargos was the world that was invaded or not? Also, in Polyhedron, it states "...that dead goddess is far more important: she was once the patron deity of the human ancestors of the githyanki and githzerai. The human ruins the dwarves are exploring in the Wasting Desert are the incredibly ancient remains of the human civilation from which the gith races were born..."
That would mean this is the world that the human ancestors of the Gith came from. Not necessarily where all humans came from because the humans are scattered all over the planes in differing states of technology. Perhaps in these ruins are ancient texts or technologies to be uncovered by the Silver Eyes (I think that's the name of the scholars) that reveal certain things about the Githyanki. Maybe some kind of prophecy, being lured to self destruction by Tiamat or something perhaps? Anyways, whatever information is discovered could possibly be used to strengthen the position of one of the factions. Just a few of my scattered thoughts.