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Githyanki and Githzerai

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Mon, 2010-09-20 14:33
#1
Palomides
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Githyanki and Githzerai

I have a general question:

Was there an official explanation as to why, given the vast expanse of the multiverse, the githyanki chose to live in the Astral and the githzerai chose Limbo? Their respective placements always seemed a bit random to me.
I could see some benefits of using the Astral for trade or ease of moving troops, etc. But I could see a lot of the same arguments for being based in the Etheral. The placement in Limbo seems very arbitrary to me

If there is no offical answer (or hints), did anyone create an in-house answer? (E.g. perhaps the githzerai are seeking a lost tomb/library of their leader that was hidden in the expanses of Limbo's chaos; or the githzerai believe that being able to impose their will on chaos will give them a mental/psionic edge in combat with the mind flayers or githyanki)

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Mon, 2010-09-20 19:30
#2
ripvanwormer
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Re: Githyanki and Githzerai

The Astral Plane was where they were already. The illithids effectively ruled the Astral at the height of their empire, and they brought their slaves along. It was an effective hub for their planar and prime territories, especially given the squidheads' innate ability to travel there. To this day, elder brains store the bulk of their substance in the Astral. The githyanki certainly weren't going to leave, then, and risk allowing the illithids to regain control over the one plane essential to their empire's rebirth. Controlling the Astral is their way of crippling illithid growth and potential.

The githzerai just wanted to be free, and to be left alone. Limbo is the absolute freest plane in the multiverse, and one whose inhabitants are among the most isolated. A bubble in Agathion would have been more private, but they didn't want to be prisoners, just to be left to their own devices. In Limbo, one can customize reality itself with the power of will. Most divinely morphic planes are beholden to the gods and laws of nature, but in Limbo the laws of nature can be customized by anyone who can shape chaos. Master oneself and one can master chaos, and one needn't serve any other master. Limbo is too wild for the illithids ever to conquer, let alone the githyanki. The same isn't true of the Ethereal.

The githyanki took over the Astral in imitation of their former masters, inheriting the illithid dreams of domination. The githzerai wanted no part of that.

Tue, 2010-09-21 01:49
#3
Kobold Avenger
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Re: Githyanki and Githzerai

I would also say that with Limbo, one can learn a lot about the mind with the capability to shape the plane with their thoughts. And it was probably where they learned to shape many of the psionic (and other) traditions that they follow, and have since spread in some forms around the multiverse.

Tue, 2010-09-21 08:29
#4
Palomides
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Re: Githyanki and Githzerai

I'm not up on my githzerai stats but I don't recall any major psionic edge that the githzerai have over the githyanki. If they have really spent eons in Limbo honing this skill; one would think they would have something to show for it.

Tue, 2010-09-21 09:24
#5
Kobold Avenger
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Re: Githyanki and Githzerai

The Githzerai's edge with psionics depends on what edition you're using...
2e: +1 dex, +1 int, -1 str, -1 wis
3e: +6 dex, +2 wis, -2 int (generally my least favourite stat arrangement, as it unpowered some Githzerai concepts and gave them an level adjustment of +2)
4e: +2 wis, +2 dex or int

Also in 3.5e, I seem to recall the Githzerai specifically getting bonus power points, because they were a psionic race. Yes the 3e Githzerai sucked as Wizards and Psions (though you could always use stat buy to get a really high int, and use dex as a dump stat, and still get a good dex), something they were alright as back in 2e. But they made good Monks and Psychic Warriors and Ardents... And I tended to rearrange their ability scores to make them more inline with 2e Githzerai. And the Githzerai were always presented as an iconic Psionic race, despite whatever their ability scores were.

Tue, 2010-09-21 10:05
#6
Palomides
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Re: Githyanki and Githzerai

Again, forgive me for not knowing the "official" stance but what is the approximate ratio of githyanki to githzerai through the multiverse? And what is the ratio of strength (i.e. if two "average" groups of the same number of the two races met, would one group be almost certain to win)?
I ask because I always envisioned the two forces being approximately equal. But with the statements above it almost sounds like the githzerai were running off to hide themselves/be safe.

Since the 'zerai aren't CN (at least not the versions I know), it seems like moving to Limbo would only be motivated by one of a few possible reasons:
1) The githzerai fled to the "safety" of the chaos because they didn't feel that they could withstand their enemies

2) The githzerai fled to the safety of the chaos because they didn't want to fight (not quite a pacifist stance, but still reluctant for a large war) so they picked a place where their enemies wouldn't want to come
[If this is the case, there still seems to me like there might have been some better choices for where to relocate in the planes]

3) The githzerai have some long range goal to improve themselves by being tested by the mettle of Limbo's chaos
[If this is the case, it seems like they should have something more to show for it. Although, that might make for a major game-changing adventure if the githzerai suddenly unveil something powerful made of harnessed chaos-stuff that they have shaped into a device to serve their ultimate goal (like take over/re-unify with the githyanki]

4) The githzerai have some long range goal that involves "dominating" large tracks of Limbo with the power of their will
[Random thought: could the githzerai create a new Outer Plane demiplane by following such a tactic? (But one that was more stable and more powerful than a typical demiplane) Within this theoretical demiplane, the githzerai might have "inate properties" that greatly strengthen and enhance their power, making it a safe home for their people. If successful, would this result in a "gold rush" where various groups/beings rush to Limbo to try to steal "land" away from the chaos - if so, the slaad (and the rilmani) would probably get REALLY aggressive]

5) The githzerai seek for something hidden within the chaos
[In my campaign, while I had the githzerai strengthening themselves by pitting their minds against Limbo's chaos, I added a subplot that they were also searching for the Lost Library/Tomb of Zerthimon that was said to be hidden within the chaos and held items that would grant the githzerai an edge over their foes]

Tue, 2010-09-21 10:40
#7
ripvanwormer
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Re: Githyanki and Githzerai

Githzerai are chaotic neutral in first and second edition. 3rd edition lists them as "any neutral," which can still (and, I assume, does) mean the race is largely chaotic neutral. 4th edition lists them as "unaligned," which can still be taken to (and, I assume, does) mean chaotic neutral. So even the versions you know are likely chaotic neutral (I don't see any reason to retcon that).

The githzerai, a race of former slaves, are all about freedom, freedom before anything. And there is no plane more free than Limbo, and therefore there is no better place for them to go (in Arborea they're still slaves to gravity, at least). They split from the githyanki because they didn't want to dominate anything or anyone. They just wanted to be left alone, and be free.

I would assume that Zerthimon's faction wasn't as large as Gith's, or they wouldn't have had to flee the Astral Plane for a plane of their own. There may or may not be as many githzerai as githyanki today.

Tue, 2010-09-21 11:24
#8
ripvanwormer
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Re: Githyanki and Githzerai

MC8 (the Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix) said, "The githzerai believe that some day Zerthimon, in his new godly form, will return and take them to a place on another plane. Zerths are special among the githzerai, acting as focal points for the attention of Zerthimon. The githzerai believe that when Zerthimon returns for them, he will first gather all the zerths and lead them to their new paradise."

Since githzerai can leave the plane whenever they want, they're not trapped in Limbo (they can either planeshift innately, or they could always find portals), so it might be surmised that they're either remaining in Limbo out of religious conviction or because they don't yet know of any plane better suited to their needs. Perhaps they believe they must undergo penance until Zerthimon determines they're worthy to go somewhere else. Or perhaps the paradise they believe in must be discovered or created by Zerthimon, and they can't find it on their own.

Tue, 2010-09-21 11:37
#9
Palomides
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Re: Githyanki and Githzerai

ripvanwormer wrote:
[T]here is no plane more free than Limbo

I guess my resistance is due largely to my associating Limbo with anarchy more than freedom. And under anarchy, one is subject to the "law of the club" (where the strongest individual ends up creating the "de facto" law (at least as far as his reach extends) even if there is no formal universally applied laws).
Even taking over several islands in Ysgard seems like it would have been less trouble for the githzerai. [Please don't argue this point as I'm not suggesting a change]

None of this is enough to make me want to move them from Limbo; it just always seemed like there might be a deeper, hidden motive for dropping oneself into the chaos-soup

ripvanwormer wrote:
[I]t might be surmised that they're either remaining in Limbo out of religious conviction or because they don't yet know of any plane better suited to their needs. Perhaps they believe they must undergo penance until Zerthimon determines they're worthy to go somewhere else. Or perhaps the paradise they believe in must be discovered or created by Zerthimon, and they can't find it on their own.

These are all intriguing ideas (to me). Perhaps the githzerai attempts at plane-shaping are an attempt to lay the ground work for this paradise that Zerthimon will then refine and make permanent and separate (at least the 'zerai believe this will happen). Perhaps they believe that if they can crystallize this perfect concept of this ideal new plane, that will be the stimulus that will cause Zerthimon to return and make it real

Tue, 2010-09-21 11:21
#10
ripvanwormer
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Re: Githyanki and Githzerai

The 4th edition sourcebook The Plane Below says "They believe that by mastering the chaos of the universe, they can create perfect order, which leads to enlightenment."

Pretty simple. They're in Limbo for the sake of enlightenment.

Tue, 2010-09-21 11:28
#11
Palomides
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Re: Githyanki and Githzerai

Doesn't that make them seem more LN than CN? But that's 4e, so who knows what shennigans they (the designers) are pulling?

Tue, 2010-09-21 16:23
#12
ripvanwormer
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Re: Githyanki and Githzerai

I think the githzerai are a paradox to some extent, and can be seen as either. But the things that make them orderly - their discipline, their simplicity - are character traits that don't undermine the radical egalitarianism and devotion to liberty that make them ethically chaotic neutral. Though you could argue otherwise depending on what you wanted to emphasize.

It depends on whether you want to present them as being primarily committed to obedience to their superiors, their heroes and traditions, and the Rules of their monastic creeds, or if you want to present them as being fiercely individual, accepting only the most minimal instructions from others for the sake of military effectiveness. I can see them either way, and it probably varies from individual to individual.

But of course devotion to order in a cosmic sense (as a multiversal goal) is different from devotion to order in an ethical sense (as a way of prioritizing their social choices). And personal, mental order within their own enlightened minds is different from desiring a communal order that everyone is beholden to.

Tue, 2010-09-21 18:41
#13
Aik
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Re: Githyanki and Githzerai

Quote:
I guess my resistance is due largely to my associating Limbo with anarchy more than freedom. And under anarchy, one is subject to the "law of the club" (where the strongest individual ends up creating the "de facto" law (at least as far as his reach extends) even if there is no formal universally applied laws).

Just sayin' ... that's not anarchy - that's a government. To have somewhere that's in a stable state of anarchy (rather than falling into government-by-the-guy-with-the-club), you'd either need a system that stops that from forming or have no one actually want to exert that power. Seeing those two things aren't really a part of the general makeup of Limbo, I think we're pretty clearly talking about freedom here - along with the freedom to beat people over the head if you want them to do something. It's freedom on the grand scale, not the personal one. I never got the impression that it's the plane of liberty or whatnot - it's just a swirling mess and you have to make of that what you can.

In any case - moving to Limbo is a grand idea. There's no moving cost - you just imagine all the stuff you need to live into existence. You can forge your grand civilisation in a couple of hours if you have all your people in order.

Wed, 2010-09-22 08:05
#14
Palomides
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Re: Githyanki and Githzerai

Aik wrote:
To have somewhere that's in a stable state of anarchy (rather than falling into government-by-the-guy-with-the-club), you'd either need a system that stops that from forming or have no one actually want to exert that power. Seeing those two things aren't really a part of the general makeup of Limbo, I think we're pretty clearly talking about freedom here - along with the freedom to beat people over the head if you want them to do something. It's freedom on the grand scale, not the personal one. I never got the impression that it's the plane of liberty or whatnot - it's just a swirling mess and you have to make of that what you can.
I disagree (although, I may be thread-jacking my own thread). I never said or implied that there was a unified system behind the anarachy of the "law of the club". For example, you have a nice TV. A large slaad shows up and decides that he likes it. Now its his unless you can fight him off. It's as simple as that. I don't see how the concept of government applies at all. (I think we are both in agreement on how that works)

You may consider "anarachy" to be a coherent, in place political structure, but I don't. I just consider to an absense of any rules to protect anyone, thus the default of the "law of the club". What we find in Limbo doesn't strike me as "freedom" so much as uncertainty.
This may be my interpretation but the githzerai do seem to want SOME level of stability and structure in their society. And while Limbo allows you to do whatever you want (so long as you are strong enough to support it), it still seems like a major hassle.

Aik wrote:
In any case - moving to Limbo is a grand idea. There's no moving cost - you just imagine all the stuff you need to live into existence. You can forge your grand civilisation in a couple of hours if you have all your people in order.
Except for the "cost" of having to concentrate upon it to keep it in existence. And the cost of fighting off the slaad

I don't really want to move the githzerai from Limbo, but it still seems like Ysgard, Pandemonium (they could probably find a way to shield their minds from the madness) or even Arborea might have been easier if their only goal was to find a new place to settle and be free.

I was just curious if anyone else had considered this and if anyone had thought of a strong reason why Limbo was chosen over other locations.

Wed, 2010-09-22 16:54
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Re: Githyanki and Githzerai

Palomides wrote:
You may consider "anarachy" to be a coherent, in place political structure, but I don't. I just consider to an absense of any rules to protect anyone, thus the default of the "law of the club".

Yeah, but a rule doesn't have to be there to protect people for it to be a rule. His point is that "law of the club" is still a law. Having the strong rule the weak is still a system of order. But Limbo is the plane of no laws. Not just no constructed laws, but no predictable laws of physics, no rules of thumb, no guidelines, no constants. No rhyme nor reason. Barely even causality, and probably only because the multiverse won't let it abandon that. (No natural ones, at least, only the ones outsiders force on the plane when they come in. And even those don't last forever.) For it to be truly chaotic, the strong would have to sometimes be ruled by the weak, with no predictable pattern for when one person can command another. Or even beyond that, no one would have to be able to give orders to anyone regardless of any possible factor. A person would have to be able to disobey even someone with the force to back up their commands.

Complete freedom, in other words, with either no possible restrictions on anyone, or temporary restrictions that will at some point be inverted.

Wed, 2010-09-22 17:25
#16
Palomides
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Re: Githyanki and Githzerai

Idran wrote:
His point is that "law of the club" is still a law. ...[N]o predictable laws of physics, no rules of thumb, no guidelines, no constants. No rhyme nor reason. Barely even causality...
Same difference. If you can't predict where/when/what force might suddenly strike out at you; then you are effectively living under the "law of the club". Not being able to anticipate it doesn't make you more secure - hence my confusion as why anyone (even a lover of "freedom") would choose to subject himself to it.

To put it another way: would you feel your freedom is safer if you knew who your "enemy" was and what he was doing (more or less) or would your freedom be safer in a chaotically random environment where you could suddenly find yourself enslaved/destroyed if the random forces suddenly fell into place to enslave/destroy you? (Admitted, they could just as inexplicably flip to set you free again - but still)

Ultimately, the plane itself is the "big club". If it decides to turn you inside out, what can you do about it? Without being able to predict what it might do and no (effective) way to counter it; the longer you stay, the greater your odds of being a victim

Wed, 2010-09-22 20:44
#17
ripvanwormer
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Re: Githyanki and Githzerai

Limbo generally won't do anything to you that you don't will it to, which is why it's the plane of ultimate freedom. Compared to the giants of Ysgard, the meddlesome Olympians, epic beasts, bacchae, nature spirits, and haughty elves of Arborea, and the madness of Pandemonium (which I don't think anyone short of gods can avoid), slaadi aren't much of a threat. By their nature they're less inclined to oppress anyone than giants or elves. On no other plane can the githzerai completely customize their experience of reality. I maintain that Limbo is the best plane for a race of neutral fanatics obsessed with self-determination. But, as above, there may have been other reasons for them to go there, including a quest for enlightenment and a prophecy involving Zerthimon.

Wed, 2010-09-22 23:50
#18
Palomides
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Re: Githyanki and Githzerai

I agree that the slaad aren't any more (or at least not much more) of a threat than residents on other planes. I just had the impression that the plane itself was more arbitrary (and thus more uncaringly hostile) in what it might do to visitors.

As a parallel, how many sane sentient creatures would subject themselves to constant attacks from a wand of wonder for years on end?
But if the plane (mostly) leaves people alone, that does change things.

BTW, does the plane have a preference for randomly messing with people of a lawful bent over a chaotic one? That seems like it would be too much of a purposeful agenda for a CN plane; but I still like the idea.
Xaositects and slaad would be unmolested (most of the time) but a Guvner would be subjected to the full zanny-ness of a Warner Brothers' cartoon.

Thu, 2010-09-23 02:15
#19
Hyena of Ice
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Re: Githyanki and Githzerai

BTW, does the plane have a preference for randomly messing with people of a lawful bent over a chaotic one? That seems like it would be too much of a purposeful agenda for a CN plane; but I still like the idea.

It doesn't to me. It would simply be the plane rejecting the lawful essence contained in the individual creature or object, and an attempt at homeostasis (e.g. returning the matter and energy on the plane into random, ever-changing forms)

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