"Gith reboots"

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Rhys's picture
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"Gith reboots"

So, as manager of Rrakkma, I suppose I am charged with the sacred duty of ensuring the continuation of gith-related goodness. Therefore, I'm currently working on variant racial statistics for githyanki and githzerai. My thinking was that the 3rd edition racial abilities were a little too much of a deviation from the human-like races that they were before, and that the +2 LA was a little too steep to play sometimes. So I'm trying to set them at a LA+1 level (on par with planetouched, genasi, planar bariaur, etc.), make the two races fully equal with each other (odd reflections of each other) and perhaps set them a little closer to their former characteristics (e.g. who really needs a +6 to Dexterity?), or, as Loki dubbed it, "first edition reboots of the species."

But, rather than my usual habits of coming up with an idea and then tossing it out for the community to work on until it gets bored, I've actually got something for you all! They're based off of the 2nd edition stats for githzerai in the Planewalker's handbook and off of the Expanded Psionics handbook 3.5 edition stats for psionic githzerai and githyanki.

"[b wrote:
Githzerai racial traits:[/b]"] +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Str: Githzerai are quick in body and possess an indominable will honed by millennia of discipline, opposition, and a hostile environment. Their physical power, however, is less than that of comparable species.

Medium-size humanoid.

Base speed 30 feet.

Darkvision 60 feet.

Naturally psionic: Githzerai gain 2 bonus power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class.

Power resistance (Ex): A githzerai has power resistance equal to his hit dice. Githzerai have been bathed in psionics all their lives and have developed techniques to fight off mental attacks throughout their history.

Githzerai have a +2 racial bonus to Balance and Concentration skill checks. They are admired for their keen focus and self-knowledge. [Writer's note: I always felt that little things like skill bonuses did a lot to round out a race and were somewhat under-represented.]

Favored class: Monk [Writer's note: I'm not a huge fan of this. Any suggestions? Psion?]

Level Adjustment: +1


"[b wrote:
Githyanki racial traits:[/b]"]
+2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Wis. The githyanki train their bodies to be weapons in their eternal war against all other races. Their overconfidence and their fanaticism, however, are often weaknesses.

Medium-size humanoid.

Base speed 30 feet.

Darkvision 60 feet.

Naturally psionic: Githyanki gain 2 bonus power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class.

Power resistance (Ex): A githyanki has power resistance equal to his hit dice. Life on the Astral Plane and a powerful belief in inner strength have granted the githyanki a special resilience.

Githyanki have a +2 racial bonus on Intimidate, Sense Motive, and Search skill checks. The githyanki make fearsome opponents, and their society trains them for vigilance and suspicion. [Writer's note: I'm not entirely sure of these particular skills, but I needed three to match.]

Favored class: Fighter [Writer's note: I'm fine with Fighter as their favored class. Perhaps Psychic Warrior to reflect their psionic talents, as well. However, with a penalty to Wisdom they'd suffer in the manifesting department there.]

Level Adjustment: +1


My concern now is that they might be too similar. Any suggestions?

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"Gith reboots"

question: is there such thing as a 'half-gith', is it even possible?
I mean, the gith used to be mostly human, right? Before the whole mindflayer thing....
So there should be half gith babies out there somewhere, right? I mean, there are half-elves, and as far as I knew elves didnt evolve from humans.

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"Gith reboots"

"Fidrikon" wrote:
question: is there such thing as a 'half-gith', is it even possible? I mean, the gith used to be mostly human, right? Before the whole mindflayer thing.... So there should be half gith babies out there somewhere, right? I mean, there are half-elves, and as far as I knew elves didnt evolve from humans.

I don't have any problem with half-gith. You could argue, however, that the illithids altered the reproductive organs of their slaves to such an extent that they're no longer anatomically compatible with humans.

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"Gith reboots"

"ripvanwormer" wrote:
I don't have any problem with half-gith. You could argue, however, that the illithids altered the reproductive organs of their slaves to such an extent that they're no longer anatomically compatible with humans.
Right. Elves may not have evolved from humans, but they also don't lay eggs or have some of the other... reproductive traits that the gith have (remembering a passing observation noted in "A Planewalker's Guide to the Gith Races").

That being said, there is an NPC over at Rrakkma named Nalla Kond Vellus who is a half-githzerai. I worked with the author on this and we pretty much just winged it. She has a handful of psi-like abilities and a Dex of 20, but no CR adjustment. Can't remember what else we did.

But anyway, what do people think of the variant gith, in terms of their adherence to the older concepts of the races and in terms of their balance as LA +1 races?

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"Gith reboots"

If you don't like monk as a favored class, why not give the 'zerai a favored class of Psychic Warrior? The wisdom bonuses would go well with that, and it seems like it could fit the culture well enough, though I don't know as much about that as I should.

One of these features seems pretty useless- the power resistance. Power resistance at character level is almost totally useless, since when you face someone of equal or higher level, they automatically overcome it. I would advocate removing that entirely or upping it to level+5. It's still near useless at lower levels, but at least that way a level 20 character is going to be immune to a level 1 manifester's powers (as if it matters...) and has a slim chance of resisting powers at their level.

Two other things- one is that removing all psi-like abilities doesn't sit well with me. Maybe they could keep the lower order ones? The other thing is that I'm not sure about the Search bonus for Githyanki. If they're suspicious, why not make it a spot check, to off set their wisdom penalty?

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"Gith reboots"

I think the official versions are more interesting, honestly. I kind of like the +6 Dex githzerai get. It makes them distinctive, more than just a different kind of elf.

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"Gith reboots"

Psi-like abilities for a fairly standard race never quite sat right with me. I can't imagine how every githzerai, from a powerful warrior to that level 1 commoner who grows turnips in a chaos-soup garden, would be able to drift down off of a sixty-foot rooftop by using psionic feather fall. I felt like they should be, at their heart, fairly normal beings. I think the fun of the gith races is their racial personalities, not their psionic powers.

With that as my opinion, what psi-like powers specifically would you recommend?

And rip, you should know I have nothing but the highest regards for you and your work, but I just can't see eye to eye with you on the +6 Dex issue. It was one of the things that bothered me and made we want to do this in the first place. I just keep thinking, "There are cities of these people, do they really average a 16-17 Dex score?"

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Re: "Gith reboots"

Githzerai:
- PR: Make that 5 + HD; PR equal to HD is mostly useless.
- Fav. Class: Rogue? Evasion in Limbo, sign me up.
- Darkvision: Remove, or replace with low-light vision. Too many planar races have darkvision for no good reason.
- Dex: I agree, +6 is pointless.

Githyanki:
- PR, darkvision: see above.
- Skills: Racial bonus on Search, not based on extraordinary perception? I don't get this.
- Fav. Class: Fighter is fine. I also liked them as Psi Warriors, but you're right, XPHB's Wis-based manifesting is a bitch.

Too similar? Well, they should be, shouldn't they? Like the dwarven, elven, and halfling subspecies, they are basically one race, regardless of how much they enjoy putting each other in the dead-book.

IMO, they are/should be similar enough that distinguishing between a naked and unconscious 'zerai from a naked and unconscious 'yanki should be difficult.

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Re: "Gith reboots"

"Nemui" wrote:
Like the dwarven, elven, and halfling subspecies, they are basically one race, regardless of how much they enjoy putting each other in the dead-book.

IMO, they are/should be similar enough that distinguishing between a naked and unconscious 'zerai from a naked and unconscious 'yanki should be difficult.

I disagree. They've been apart for tens of thousands of years, adapting to very different planes of existence. The githyanki have even been interbreeding with red dragons (thus the eggs, presumedly). In 1e and 2e they looked very different; githzerai are much more human-looking, while githyanki are much more gaunt and reptillian.

That's how I stubbornly insist on seeing it, anyway.

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"ripvanwormer" wrote:
In 1e and 2e they looked very different; githzerai are much more human-looking, while githyanki are much more gaunt and reptillian.

I know, but Rhys was talking about customizing them down to two rather similar LA +1 races. If this nerfing is to take place, I wouldn't mind seeing them merged, stat-wise. Appearance has little to do with this - differences between moon and drow elves are even more apparent. (Of course, moon and drow elves also have different stats, but they are both listed under "elf")

"ripvanwormer" wrote:
They've been apart for tens of thousands of years, adapting to very different planes of existence. The githyanki have even been interbreeding with red dragons (thus the eggs, presumedly).

IMO, "tens of thousands of years" isn't nearly enough time for major evolutionary leaps, at least without artificial aid. And I was under the impression that both the 'yanki and 'zerai were egg-layers since before the Rebellion? Where's this dragon-inbreeding info from?

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"Gith reboots"

Incursion showed the results of draconic interbreeding, but it was an army of half-dragons called duthka'gith. I'm not sure if we ever were told definitively about githyanki interbreeding. Although I certainly wouldn't rule it out, and they do look ambiguously reptilian, I'm also pretty sure that both races were already egg-layers before the revolution.

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"Gith reboots"

I think they look pretty good. I agree with the PR nudge to 5+level. If you want to throw in some natural psionic abilities, maybe cap the PR to 20 or 25. One thing you could do is have the abilities be dependent on HD. Look at half-fiend as an example.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm

Some people think that they are too boring. Another way to go are racial class levels. Think of them as prestige classes for a specific race. UA's Paragon Classes are an example.

I like having low LA's and then finding some way to focus the creature in question. It lends to more diversity. Honestly, do all of these creatures of a race have the exact same abilities/powers/whatever? No, monster stat listings should be representative or averages. A "race" is a foundation. A "monster" is an instance of a race.

As for the original/old stat bonuses, I think what you have is good. Again, are all creatures of a race the same? Having +2 Dex shows me they are agile. Using expert or hero stats can then give me the 16, 18, or 20 Dex I need for the very agile creature I'm looking for. Also, if you go with racial class levels, you can add in attribute bonuses.

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"Gith reboots"

"Rhys" wrote:
Psi-like abilities for a fairly standard race never quite sat right with me. I can't imagine how every githzerai, from a powerful warrior to that level 1 commoner who grows turnips in a chaos-soup garden, would be able to drift down off of a sixty-foot rooftop by using psionic feather fall. I felt like they should be, at their heart, fairly normal beings. I think the fun of the gith races is their racial personalities, not their psionic powers.

With that as my opinion, what psi-like powers specifically would you recommend?

I was thinking about it, and on some level I think you're right- Why would a low level 'zerai bother with catfall? Maybe a way to deal with the question is to allow characters (PC and NPC) with character classes to draw from a list of possible abilities (similar to what the Fey'ri from Monsters of Faerûn have). This represents that the mushroom farmer hasn't bothered to learn to harness his innate psi-ability, but the more highly trained 'zerai have trained this.

Possible abilities (pick 3, 1/day each):
precognition, offensive
precognition, defensive
prescience, offensive
inertial armor
catfall
daze
detect psionics
missive
burst
sense link

The Githyanki though... I feel like that'd have everyone trained to some degree. What if you took away the power resistance for them, and gave all of them minor psi-like abilities and some weapon proficiencies, like the elves have?

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"Nemui" wrote:
Appearance has little to do with this - differences between moon and drow elves are even more apparent.

Only in skin and hair color. I think the anatomical differences between githyanki and githzerai are more profound.

Quote:
IMO, "tens of thousands of years" isn't nearly enough time for major evolutionary leaps, at least without artificial aid.

Not with real-world genetics, but D&D evolution seem to operate on a much faster time table (withness the ruvoka, for example, or the shad). Planar energies can do some strange things - in Limbo especially.

And, of course, genetic drift between species speeds things up even more.

"Rhys" wrote:
Incursion showed the results of draconic interbreeding, but it was an army of half-dragons called duthka'gith. I'm not sure if we ever were told definitively about githyanki interbreeding. Although I certainly wouldn't rule it out, and they do look ambiguously reptilian, I'm also pretty sure that both races were already egg-layers before the revolution.

It was never revealed (anywhere but the Planewalker races chapter) whether githzerai are oviparous or give live birth. I tend to assume they don't lay eggs for the following reasons:

- Their superficially more human appearance.
- I'm not sure what the advantage would be for illithids to introduce such an innovation in all of their slaves. They'd be far more likely to give their thralls illithid-like amphibious eggs than the leathery, reptillian eggs of the githyanki, anyway.
- The danger of miniflux in Limbo causing dramatic mutations in unattended eggs. If they hosted their eggs in sentients like slaadi do or carry their young to term like humans, this wouldn't be a problem.
- The "interbred with dragons" explanation for githyanki eggs is such a neat one. In one stroke, it explains their appearance and oviparous nature. It's explained by their closeness and feeling of sorority with their draconic mounts. The duthka'gith are (presumedly) the first systematic attempt at dragon/githyanki crossbreeding, but I think it's reasonable to assume it happened in smaller, more chaotic intervals since Vlaakith I's original bargain.

I still think it's possible that githzerai are anatomically incompatatible with humans and elves in other ways.

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"Gith reboots"

Half-gith:
It is hard to both mix and put aside "real world" ideas. Can a human and a githyanki produce an offspring? Let's assume githyanki lay eggs and/or some other "bizarre" method of reproduction. Earth-logic says "no, they can't have kids". But you can always pull the fantasy trump card of, "with magic, anything can happen". :twisted:

Sorry if this is furthering any topic derailment.

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Can humans and gith crossbreed? You bet they can, if you believe that gith and dragons can crossbreed. There's no way they've drifted to the point that they're closer matches to dragons than to humans.

But anyway, if the gith reboots had psi-like abilities, how much power could they have like this without being bumped back up to LA +2? Maybe one ability, usable once per day, of a 2nd level power, like tieflings and aasimar have for spell-like abilities. But which powers for each race? I feel like they ought to be able to choose from a list of powers, since these species are fairly common. It would be quite boring to have such numerous races be so uniform. I'd prefer not to do psi-lile abilities at all, since I think that they're more fun if they seem more natural and less prone to be abused as PCs for their racial abilities.

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"Gith reboots"

"Rhys" wrote:
Can humans and gith crossbreed? You bet they can, if you believe that gith and dragons can crossbreed. There's no way they've drifted to the point that they're closer matches to dragons than to humans.

But dragons can shapeshift!

Also, an idea that occured to me is that githyanki have grown more draconic with the passing of millennia as a side-effect of Tiamat's "blessing" on their race.

But, yeah: I think giths and humans can probably procreate naturally.

Quote:
. I'd prefer not to do psi-lile abilities at all, since I think that they're more fun if they seem more natural and less prone to be abused as PCs for their racial abilities.

The way James O'Rance handled it was to just give them access to psionic feats even if they aren't psions. You can see his conversion here.

By the way, I quite like the Expanded Psionic Handbook's suggestion of wilder as the githzerai's preferred class.

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"Gith reboots"

The githzerai have wilder as a favored class in the XPH? Not according to my version. Where are you seeing this? Personally, I think that exploding with power from a surge of unleashed emotion is very unlike the sombre, inwardly-focused githzerai. Psion would seem to be a better option, but they also seem more active than Psions often are. I'm actually okay with Monk as their favored class, since it fits their penchant for balance.

But how well does all of this fit the overall race, and not just the Zerthimon-venerating bunch?

That PS3e archive article is tempting me to write githzerai and githyanki as LA+0 races, just like they were (and everyone else was) in 2e. If I added in another ability penalty to balance those out and dropped the psi-like abilities, would it maybe drop to ECL 0?

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"Gith reboots"

According to Savage Species, a couple level 1 psi-like abilities are fine for LA +1, as long as they aren't at will or more powerful than a level 2 character would could have gotten at first level- but I get your reasoning for not wanting those abilities in there I suppose.

"Rhys" wrote:
That PS3e archive article is tempting me to write githzerai and githyanki as LA+0 races, just like they were (and everyone else was) in 2e. If I added in another ability penalty to balance those out and dropped the psi-like abilities, would it maybe drop to ECL 0?
That would drop it back to LA 0. The only thing in the aasimar or tiefling that makes them +1 is the unbalanced stats. You could even keep the PR or a few minor psi-like abilities, and still be LA 0.

If you want to get rid of those, give them some other bonuses- maybe racial bonuses against illithids and the other breed, appropriate weapon proficiencies, and the racial skill bonuses you had in there earlier. Perhaps a bonus to will saves to represent the resistance to being controled?

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"Gith reboots"

"Rhys" wrote:
The githzerai have wilder as a favored class in the XPH? Not according to my version. Where are you seeing this?

Near the beginning, there's a list of alternative classes for those races that don't normally have a psionic class as their favored one. Wilder is the suggestion if you'd rather the githzerai have a psionic favored class than sticking them with (the alignment-inappropriate) monk.

It seems ideal for them. Like the maenads, githzerai show their emotions sparingly to others, but they're filled with tremendous inner passion (mainly hatred of their enemies and a fiery need to preserve their freedom). Wilder also corresponds nicely to the 2e wild mage.

Quote:
I'm actually okay with Monk as their favored class, since it fits their penchant for balance.

I love githzerai monks, don't get me wrong, but I think they're a minority among the race. I interpret the Manual of the Planes as saying that by far the majority are chaotic city dwellers, while a dedicated few brave the raw chaos to find the monasteries. Their original 1e Fiend Folio entry also made monks a minority among them.

On the other hand, the race as it was redesigned in 3e is obviously built primarily for making them into awesome monks.

Quote:
But how well does all of this

All of what?

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Well, that's what I meant- how well does the race fit the overall picture of githzerai and not just the monastic ones?

Maybe make the two races LA+0 with no psi-like abilities, fixed PR, and balanced stats Maybe a -2 to Charisma for those arrogant, disdainful, obedient githyanki, and some other penalty for githzerai. Intelligence penalties seem like such a low blow. Can anyone rationalize that to me?

Then, a feat called Monastic Pilgrim allows githzerai to use monk as their favored class and perhaps a +1 bonus to Will saves in order to reflect their intense training and ability to shape chaos. That way, this feat reflects those githzerai who have left the floating cities to train in the Limbo monasteries.

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I don't personally see a problem with having them be LA+1, but I rarely play in campaigns that start at level 1. If I did, as I am now, I would convert any ECL into a class progression (a la Savage Species). As long as there is a progression (and obviously the ECL is "fair"), +0, +1, or +2 shouldn't matter a ton. Yeah you can't get onto the cool stuff in regular classes right away, but you're getting cool stuff in its place.

In my current campaign I'm playing an alu-fiend of my own design. I got it down to ECL 3. I just took my 2nd racial level. I also have a custom racial prestige class for later if I want to continue (min level 5), but I doubt I will.

I think if you end up with LA 0 or +1 you'll be fine. If you want to add/keep a little psionic twist without upping the LA, another example is the Kalashtar from Eberron. They get 1 PP per level regardless of whether they take a class or not. Or do as you were thinking and give them a few low-level powers to choose from and limit it to 1/day or 3/day.

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You know, I never had been able to find an answer to this question, maybe one of you can answer it for me. Does a favored class of Monk or Paladin allow a character to freely multiclass with the respective class, or do they just not take experience penalties? If it doesn't let them freely multiclass, then they almost might as well have no favored class.

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"Narfi Ref" wrote:
You know, I never had been able to find an answer to this question, maybe one of you can answer it for me. Does a favored class of Monk or Paladin allow a character to freely multiclass with the respective class, or do they just not take experience penalties? If it doesn't let them freely multiclass, then they almost might as well have no favored class.
It merely prevents experience penalties. Humans have 'Favored Class: Any', after all, and can't use that to go back to taking Monk or Paladin levels.

Tho a favored class of Monk or Paladin isn't completely hopeless. You can take two or three levels of the class in question, switch to a different class, and suffer no experience penalty. Say, an aasimar with a level or two of Paladin, then switch to Sorcerer or Bard - a perfectly legal build. The reverse is also possible - start as a Githzerai cleric, say, pick up a few levels' worth of minor heals and buffs, then switch to Monk for the remainder of your career.

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There are some nice feats that allow that sort of thing in Complete Adventurer.

For example, Ascetic Hunter, Ascetic Knight, Ascetic Mage, and Ascetic Rogue allow multiclassing monk with ranger, paladin, sorcerer, and rogue, respectively, as well as some minor combination power, like sacrificing a spell to add to your unarmed damage, favored enemy bonuses on stunning attacks, and stacking the pairs of classes for unarmed damage or AC bonus.

Devoted Inquisitor, Devoted Performer, and Devoted Tracker allow multiclassing paladin with levels of rogue, bard, and ranger, respectively, as well as similar bonuses to combination abilities.

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I don't like the idea of feats that allow monk/paladin multiclassing as their primary benefit. The restriction itself is pointless IMO, and a good example of forcing fluff into crunch (or vice versa), which is usually wrong

The FR solution was to make up monastic/knightly orders that allow multiclassing into specific classes as fringe benefits. For PS, perhaps a note saying that 'zerai monks can freely multiclass into rogues (?) would do. Similar notes for other orders, maybe something about the Harmonium/Sons of Mercy paladins, Cipher monks, etc.

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I'm still firmly in the camp that neither Githzerai nor Githyanki or egg-layers. I've always found it faintly ridiculous.

In the Illithiad, it mentions that Illithids' ceremorphosis can only use a mammalian host, and explicitly states that both githzerai and githyanki are vulnerable to it.

With the exception of certain monotremes, mammals don't lay eggs.

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'Korimyr the Rat' wrote:
With the exception of certain monotremes, mammals don't lay eggs.

So there you have it! Githyanki are monotremes! Eye-wink

(Pedantic quibble: With the exception of all monotremes, actually, not just certain monotremes. All monotremes are egg-layers...not that that's saying a lot, since the only monotremes are the platypus and the echidna.)

On a more serious note, though, you're pitting canon against canon. Actually, monotremes aside, I don't think the egg-laying would necessarily make githyanki "non-mammalian"; we're talking a fantasy universe here where real-world biology doesn't necessarily apply. But even assuming for the sake of argument that egg-laying githyanki are in contradiction to the Illithiad...so what? The thing is, there are canonical Planescape materials that do specify that githyanki lay eggs. (The Guide to the Astral Plane, notably.) This is far from the only place where canonical materials contradict each other. So why is the Illithiad a higher authority? If anything, if we're discussing Planescape, one could make the argument that where something in a Planescape book contradicts something in a non-Planescape book, the Planescape book takes precedence.

None of this, of course, invalidates your opinion, and if you don't like the idea of githyanki laying eggs, you're certainly entitled to feel that way. But I don't think citing the Illithiad carries much weight as a counterargument.

(For what it's worth, for those who don't have the Guide to the Astral Plane, here's what it says on the subject:

Quote:
The most pronounced deviation of the githyanki from their human origins is that they have become egg-layers. This is either the result of some experiment of the illithids or the exposure to some strange astral energies. In either case, this method of reproduction closely resembles that of reptilian creatures.
)

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'Smeazel' wrote:
If anything, if we're discussing Planescape, one could make the argument that where something in a Planescape book contradicts something in a non-Planescape book, the Planescape book takes precedence.

I would prefer to apply the Law of Planescape Consistency:
When two sources contradict each other, both are correct.

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'Bob the Efreet' wrote:
'Smeazel' wrote:
If anything, if we're discussing Planescape, one could make the argument that where something in a Planescape book contradicts something in a non-Planescape book, the Planescape book takes precedence.

I would prefer to apply the Law of Planescape Consistency:
When two sources contradict each other, both are correct.

Which one do you *believe* in more?

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Ah great laws:
The Planescape Law of Consistancy - When two ideas are contradictory both are correct.

The Economic Law of Diminishing Returns - For each unit consumed the return for subsequent units will diminish.

The Chemist's Law of Thermodynamics - No 100% efficency.

Xanxosts's Law of Mephits - mmmm mephits

extropymine's picture
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Joined: 2005-08-02
"Gith reboots"

'ripvanwormer' wrote:
"Rhys" wrote:
Can humans and gith crossbreed? You bet they can, if you believe that gith and dragons can crossbreed. There's no way they've drifted to the point that they're closer matches to dragons than to humans.

But dragons can shapeshift!

Also, an idea that occured to me is that githyanki have grown more draconic with the passing of millennia as a side-effect of Tiamat's "blessing" on their race.

But, yeah: I think giths and humans can probably procreate naturally.

I really don't know that I agree with the two of you on this. The Duth'ka'gith are the result of a long experimental program of Ephelomon's, as I recall. They are not made "naturally."

I have always been of the opinion that Gith are very physically different than primes. I also think that they weren't that different before the millennia of enslavement by the Illithids. A few posts back there was talk about whether or not Gith laid eggs before their enslavement. I have always believed they did not.

I suppose I think that is it far more compelling if the Illithids took a human-like race and just warped them. I think the Illithids turned them into egg-layers so that the women wouldn't need time to be pregnant. Also, there would be less emotional connections to a clutch of eggs than to a living baby. It is also much easier to indoctrinate a group of children born from a hatchery. For all of these reasons, I find it much more interesting if the Illithids consciously made these changes to the Gith to make them easier to control as an effective slave-force.

And as a result, I do not see them interbreeding with other races without magical help. Even Ephelomon needed magic to make Duth'Ka'Gith...

Anyway, as to the proposed revised racial statlines, I need more time to think on it. I like the idea of making them a bit more playable with a +1 instead of a +2, but what to give up for it? Hmm...

ripvanwormer's picture
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Joined: 2004-10-05
"Gith reboots"

'extropymine' wrote:
The Duth'ka'gith are the result of a long experimental program of Ephelomon's, as I recall. They are not made "naturally."

The Duth'ka'gith are a special case, and of comparatively recent vintage. I'm thinking interbreeding between githyanki warriors and their mounts may have happened seperately, for hundreds of millennia.

(I had a dream last night that I found a book that said it had been exactly one million years since Gith's liberation - wow, I'm a nerd even while I'm asleep)

Quote:
I also think that they weren't that different before the millennia of enslavement by the Illithids.

1st and 2nd edition sources say they were human back then.

Quote:
I suppose I think that is it far more compelling if the Illithids took a human-like race and just warped them.

Oh, I agree, and I'm sure they warped them terribly, in countless ways, creating castes meant for fighting, for eating, for torturing, for laboring, for breeding, and anything else the Creator Creed could think of at the time. The most extreme changes didn't survive into the present-day children of Gith.

Quote:
I think the Illithids turned them into egg-layers so that the women wouldn't need time to be pregnant. Also, there would be less emotional connections to a clutch of eggs than to a living baby. It is also much easier to indoctrinate a group of children born from a hatchery.

Those are all good reasons, and they had occurred to me as well (I didn't come up with the "all githyanki are part dragon" idea until recently).

I favor the "dragon-blooded" hypothesis because it explains not just the egg-laying, but a variety of things about the physical differences between githyanki and githzerai. The time they've spent on radically different planes might explain some of it, but would imply that the githzerai should have diverged much more from their root stock than the githyanki have (Limbo is a plane of Chaos, after all, while githyanki mostly breed on the Prime), while in fact the opposite is true.

And, as I said above, I don't think oviparousness is very practical in Limbo. It's possible that githzerai started out as egg-layers and evolved into creatures who gave live birth due to natural selection (and that, in fact, was my original premise).

An idea I like is that the illithids gave some of their slaves a reproductive system similar to their own: jelly-like eggs that had to be kept in warm pools where the Elder Brain might snack on them, which eventually evolved into tiny amphibious humanoids. And external fertilization of the eggs, rather than within the female body. I think that makes more sense from an illithid perspective than the reptillian eggs of present-day githyanki. Of course, this trait has thankfully died out.

I should stop arguing about this sort of thing and just write an article on it, from the perspective of a possibly completely off-his-gourd human or dwarven scholar. Or even an exiled illithid scholar without access to the Elder Brain's memory. And then anyone who disagrees can write their own contradictory article.

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