Genies and the First Shi'ars

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Palomides's picture
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Genies and the First Shi'ars

This is just a general question and I just wanted to know if anyone else had thought of it:

It always seemed odd to me that the various genie races, given their vast powers, were ever able to be captured or put into servitude by mortals. Sure, some shi'ars are powerful but since they get their spells from elemental gen; I'd think there would be a " 'mentals before mortals" attitude amongst the residents of the Inner Planes. Either that or gen would be hunted to near extinction by those genies not wanting to serve mortals (i.e. most of them).

Has anyone considered this before? Looked through "Secrets of the Lamp" a long time ago, but I don't recall any explanation that would overcome my reservations.
Personally, I never came up with a good solution (for my tastes) but some ideas that came to mind:
-Genie ruler gives over underlings that fail him/her to the command of mortals
-Genie ruler gives over opposing genies to the command of mortals
-Genie ruler was tricked into making a pact allowing shi-ars to command genies under special conditions
-First shi'ars didn't use gen but rather learned traditional magic to control the elements (and select residents). The pact with the gen came about as an easy method AFTER the first shi'ars were able flex their might versus the genies
-The gen were an overlooked and abused species. The shi'ar gained their knowledge from the gen before the genies realized the danger of the "powerless" race of gen. Now the gen are protected by the might of the shi'ar (symbiotic relation)

Does anyone know the official answer or does anyone have a good colorful explanation?

ripvanwormer's picture
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Re: Genies and the First Shi'ars

There's a just-so story in the back of the Land of Fate boxed set that tells the origin of the first sha'ir. Basically, a plucky orphan boy accidentally found a long-lost fabled gem that the genie rulers had spent eons warring over, and he suggested they share it instead of fighting over it. They thought this was such a good idea that they gave him sha'ir powers.

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Re: Genies and the First Shi'ars

It always seemed odd to me that the various genie races, given their vast powers, were ever able to be captured or put into servitude by mortals.

You can do the same thing with other types of outsiders (including demons, devils, and loths)

Sure, some shi'ars are powerful but since they get their spells from elemental gen; I'd think there would be a " 'mentals before mortals" attitude amongst the residents of the Inner Planes. Either that or gen would be hunted to near extinction by those genies not wanting to serve mortals (i.e. most of them).
It's suggested (but not confirmed either way) in the Al Qadim books that Gens are the juvenile stage of genies. It's also stated in one of the books that genies don't do childrearing.
So it's possible that the whole Sha'ir thing is just the way Genies find a babysitter.

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Re: Genies and the First Shi'ars

Both these answer don't really satisfy my reservations.
In the Land of Fate story, can you see anyone really saying "You got us to stop fighting, so we will give you the means to enslave us"? (Admittedly, the genies may not have anticipated how well the shi'ars would take to elemental magic; but still)

In the second: If the gen are just immature genies, it still doesn't provide much motivation to give shi'ars powers that could enslave genies. The gen would have to be overly eager to get the approval of their "babysitters" and/or have REALLY serious Oedipal issues to do something so short-sighted.

I'm not saying either (or both) is outside the realm of possibility (and what is if we are taking about genies as "reality") but I don't really like either one. Personal preference on my part. Anyone else have any possiblities?

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Re: Genies and the First Shi'ars

In Arabic myth, King Solomon was the original and greatest binder of jinn. Presumedly his knowledge was divine in origin. Land of Fate mentions an ancient war between the gods and genies, as do Green Ronin's d20 stuff and 4th edition. It seems reasonable for an ancient king in a time when genies oppressed humanity to be granted the wisdom to bind genies by the gods. There was also a story in Neil Gaiman's Sandman comics referring to Solomon and the jinn.

That said, it's not accurate to treat sha'ir as if they were primarily slavers. For the most part they're partners who work with the genies, not against them. Sha'irs who abuse their powers are dealt with by wrathful genies; only the most powerful would dare to risk it. Although I described it in a flippant way, I actually like the Land of Fate story, with its plucky youth and his four genie wives.

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Re: Genies and the First Shi'ars

The 2e book The Inner Planes has the djinn hunting for the Seal of Solomon, or at least "a magical seal said to have the power to command any of their kind." Efreeti bottles are sealed with "special seals," suggesting that if there's an original such artifact, it may be empowering efreeti bottles all across the planes.

In my personal history of the planes, I have the djinn as originally neutral, along with the efreet, under the rule of the vaati during their period of expansionism and Prime empire. After the Battle of Pesh, with the Wind Dukes declining, the djinn came to regret their history of conquest, and feared falling in to evil even as they saw their opportunity to stand on their own. They turned to liberty and freedom as ideals to pursue, to combat this.

At that time they did not have the ability to grant wishes. But, in rejecting conquest, they bound themselves to mortals with oaths to serve rather than be served, and through the medium of these oaths, to which every djinn who recognizes the Caliph is bound, they were able to tap into mortals' divine energy. This upgraded their basic air-elemental powers, allowing them to create anything, including organic Prime Material forms (their major creation ability, and their peculiar ability to create wine). A noble djinn sacrifices even more when imprisoned (by force or willingly), and gains proportionately more, including the ability to grant nongenies' wishes. I figure that doing so diminishes a given noble djinn's store of divine energy, meaning that it's a rare and precious thing for them to grant.

The efreet refused to take this path and instead upheld those Wind Duke traditions they found useful, remaining lawful and progressing further into tyranny and slavery, just as the djinn had feared doing. (Also giving them a rival claim to being the legitimate inheritors of the government the vaati were abandoning, making this one of the causes of the war.) They traded with Asmodeus to give devils the secret of complete immunity to fire in exchange for knowledge on how to extract divine energy from living slaves. Any of their race sworn to the Sultan is empowered through this oath structure, to the tune of a couple of HD and the ability to grant wishes, though to their chagrin Asmodeus only went so far as to reveal how to match the djinns' ability to grant wishes to nongenies -- a mortal temptation that the efreet have embraced, much to Asmodeus' long-term profit in souls. (This oath means that a good efreeti who grants wishes is doing so by drawing on the energies of the races' slaves, a situation which can discomfit them severely, and they will typically prefer to do so only for very good cause.)

-----

Putting aside my personal indulgence there, I'm afraid I don't know too much about gen, though it seems that there's some similarity there with the Complete Divine's spirit shaman, whose spirit goes and fetches spells for her. If you take the stories above, then each of the genie races has some reason to offer its adolescents (I wouldn't make them children, but rather right about the stage when they'd be apprenticing if they were humans) a chance to get some experience working with humans, manipulating magic, and learning about the world outside their planar homes.

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Re: Genies and the First Shi'ars

ripvanwormer wrote:
That said, it's not accurate to treat sha'ir as if they were primarily slavers.
Very true. I also have most of the shi'ars in a benenvolent relationship with the genies. But still if you start handing out power to others, any intelligent being (and I interpret most genies as being reasonably bright) should anticipate that someone will abuse it. (E.g. I doubt Canada would ask for it, but I doubt the U.S. would give Canada a bunch of nuclear missles just because they are good neighbors - I know post WWII France could be used as a counter-argument) So my question was why grant anyone that potential power over yourself?

I had forgotten the connections with King Solomon and the power being implied to be divine bestowed. That's a good take on it. I think the concept of the gods and genies in combat would probably be the best solution (for me).
In (I believe) non-canonical Islam lore, the genies are often depicted as trying to steal away devotion from Allah.

This could also be tied back to 4e's war between the gods and the primoridals (with the genie races being some lower-level type soldiers in the conflict). Representative of a turn to worshipping concepts (Good/Evil/Law/Chaos) over worshipping "mindless" elemental forces.

For earlier editions, the genies could still be soldiers in some divine war (e.g. djinn serving the Wind Dukes, or being less powerful surviving Wind Dukes that lost power and interest in law after the great conflicts)

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Re: Genies and the First Shi'ars

Actually, in Islam, jinn are portrayed as having received instruction from Muhammad, and can choose to be good or evil as men can: there is a chapter of the Quran called Surat al-Jinn, relating this story. It's also stated that every man has a jinn (possibly unique to him, possibly not) who whispers to him and tempts him, Iblis (the Devil) being a jinn and ruler of many jinn.

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Re: Genies and the First Shi'ars

you're right. I should have mentioned that many did convert (even if it didn't bolster my gods vs. genies argument).

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Re: Genies and the First Shi'ars

Palomides wrote:
(E.g. I doubt Canada would ask for it, but I doubt the U.S. would give Canada a bunch of nuclear missles just because they are good neighbors - I know post WWII France could be used as a counter-argument)

We did until 1984 under NATO. Also under NATO we gave the UK nuclear weapons until 1992, Greece until 2001, and we still give nuclear weapons to Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy, Germany, and Turkey. And while it's ostensibly under US control now, that's only legal trickery so as to avoid violating the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty which prohibits giving any non-nuclear state access to nuclear weapons. The arrangement is that control would cede to the host nation immediately in the event of any sort of nuclear conflict involving that nation, as under those circumstances the NPT would no longer hold. It's part of the general NATO policy of nuclear deterrence; by giving more people access to nukes, they make everyone less likely to use them. (Whether or not you think that's a wise policy, that's the US government's and NATO's reasoning.)

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Re: Genies and the First Shi'ars

I stand corrected. I knew of France and Britian having a few nuclear weapons and I knew of a number of countries that had "acquired" the technology; but I had no idea so many other nations were given them (even if on a temporary basis)

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Re: Genies and the First Shi'ars

That might also hold a possible solution to your quandary too. People acting wholly in self-interest are still more than willing to give people power that puts them on equal ground with them, if it means it helps serve as a disadvantage to their opponents, or serves as a disincentive to others to do something you don't want them to do. Perhaps that's why the sha'ir relationship started? Each genie race entering into the agreement only because each genie race was entering into the agreement. Something like magical...not MAD exactly, but something to keep them on equal ground. Something like the deific pact that prevents direct involvement. No genie race was willing to say no because then the other genie races would say no, and they each wanted their traditional opponents to hold that disadvantage.

...Eh, this reasoning falls apart if you look at it funny, but I think there's a kernel of an idea here. Don't think in terms of "why would the genies individually agree to this", but "is there any reason why the genies would want it to affect the other genies?" Or "is there any reason the genies would agree to enter into this contract in order to ensure the other genies would as well?"

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Re: Genies and the First Shi'ars

Actually, in Islam, jinn are portrayed as having received instruction from Muhammad, and can choose to be good or evil as men can: there is a chapter of the Quran called Surat al-Jinn, relating this story. It's also stated that every man has a jinn (possibly unique to him, possibly not) who whispers to him and tempts him, Iblis (the Devil) being a jinn and ruler of many jinn.

The Genies in D&D are based more on their original pre-islamic renditions, though, when it comes to overall nature.

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Re: Genies and the First Shi'ars

Actually, a lot of the Al-Qadim books make reference to various genies embracing the teachings of the Loregiver (which is obviously inspired by the model of Islam).

But regardless of where the designers got the majority of their inspiration for the genies, I think I've been provided with a number of possible solutions to my original question.

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Re: Genies and the First Shi'ars

StephenReed wrote:
I'm completely sure if that would happen Canada would really ask for it.

If what would happen? I can't tell if you're responding to Palomides or me.

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Re: Genies and the First Shi'ars

Palomides wrote:
Both these answer don't really satisfy my reservations. In the Land of Fate story, can you see anyone really saying "You got us to stop fighting, so we will give you the means to enslave us"? (Admittedly, the genies may not have anticipated how well the shi'ars would take to elemental magic; but still)

In defense of the genies, the story also mentions that when they gifted the boy with the powers of a Shi'ar they were quite drunk Smiling

Another thing to point out is that the genies were also trying to one up each other at this exchange.

Drunk + trying to out do my immortal magical brethren = not the wisest courses of action.

Here is an excerpt from the story.

"...The lords hailed the youth’'s wisdom and set forth a great
feast, offering him riches and treasure in exchange for the
ruby and his sagacious advice. But the youth politely and
humbly refused all, hoping not to offend his hosts, for he had
heard tales of genie-made gold that faded in the sun. The
genie lords became more insistent, suggesting that the youth
take something of theirs in trade, but each suggestion
brought another polite refusal. As the night waned, the genie
lords began to see their offers as a kind of game. They consumed
great amounts of wine and were at last quite drunk."

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