Gate-towns

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Narfi Ref's picture
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Gate-towns

I've been thinking about this a lot lately after reading some of the relevant threads that Clueless so recently posted, and just having read "Recruiters" out of Well of Worlds. Just why is it that some people put so much energy into moving the Gate-towns through the gates? Doing so would disrupt trade routes and weaken security. Whatever they get from it has to be substantial and I don't remember the books actually explaining it. The only thing I can think of is the the petitioners of the town would become petitioners of the new plane, but that's it. Is that worth the time and resources?

On second thought I came up with the idea that sliding a gate-town is a way of showing the strength of your alignment.

What do you think?

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Gate-towns

Some of them it's implied as an alignment thing - becoming closer to what you 'should' be. Not all the towns *want* to shift though - some (like Ribcage) adamantly oppose the idea.

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Gate-towns

The residents might not want the town to shift, but others do. Remember Plague-Mort? The Tanar'ri were working with the Arch-Lector to push it through. Why? What did the Tanar'ri hope to gain?

ripvanwormer's picture
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Factol
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Gate-towns

It empowers the plane in question. Dramatically. When the the Abyss swallows up a gate-town, it empowers the entire tanar'ri race relative to the baatezu.

In some cases, most of the inhabitants desire it (like the Hardheads of Fortitude saw it as a sign that their philosophy was working, everything progressing toward greater accord).

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Gate-towns

In what way? Does each Tanar'ri get a bit more power (an extra hit die perhaps)? Does it cause a sudden increase in the Tanar'ri population? Or is it something else entirely?

Kobold Avenger's picture
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Gate-towns

Certain Tanar'ri have something to gain with a Gate-town shift.

It's likely that Red Shroud for example, might have more territory in Broken Reach, and therefore more power if Plague-Mort shifted over.

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Gate-towns

Also, many of the occupants of Gate-towns are petitioners who weren't quite able to make it to the plane of their alignment. By making the Gate-town they arose in slide, they're able to finally get through and merge with their correct plane.

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Gate-towns

'Narfi Ref' wrote:
In what way? Does each Tanar'ri get a bit more power (an extra hit die perhaps)? Does it cause a sudden increase in the Tanar'ri population? Or is it something else entirely?

Nothing measurable at the level of an individual tanar'ri, but the race as a whole would be empowered. The souls of everyone who lived in the gate-town would be claimed by the Abyss, of course, and the Abyss would gain a prized piece of psychic real estate. Of course, all the planes are infinite, but not all parts of every plane are equally potent. A gate-town offers a new influx of energy and suffering that the plane can devour and make use of.

I expect you'd quickly see the difference on the Blood War fields every time a version of Plague-Mort is swallowed up. And the same is true every time Baator swallows up a version of Ribcage or Darkspine.

Exactly how much difference is up to you. I'm sure a single town, or even a dozen, isn't enough to win the thing, but they add up. With the two sides balanced so closely, it wouldn't take many. I think gate-towns are important, and saving them (or at least balancing how they slide) can be crucial.

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Gate-towns

The paradox of infinity is that infinity in itself has no real value. Its the quality of infinity that counts, and gate-towns are rape with quality when they are close to shifting.
Every time a gate-town shifts it adds that extra little sprinkle of quality to the endless expanse of indifference that marks so much of the planes.

Kay
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Gate-towns

'ripvanwormer' wrote:
'Narfi Ref' wrote:
In what way? Does each Tanar'ri get a bit more power (an extra hit die perhaps)? Does it cause a sudden increase in the Tanar'ri population? Or is it something else entirely?

I expect you'd quickly see the difference on the Blood War fields every time a version of Plague-Mort is swallowed up. And the same is true every time Baator swallows up a version of Ribcage or Darkspine.

How is that supposed to mean when both races are said field bazillions of 'soldiers'? A million or two (or maybe just a few thousand) would make a difference, in a single battle or campaign, but in the war as a whole?
I also think it makes a difference - in the long run. Very long. Short term gain might be relevant for who ever gets their hands on the respective town.
But we should consider a motiv that is (as I think) unbearably underrated in Planescape (and D&D in general): Prestige. The hunger for recognition drives people insane and blind, it most certainly moves the planes as well. I'd also think about tradition, social desirability and such, although we're talking about chaotic folks.

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Gate-towns

Prestige is power. The coup of capturing a gate-town affects belief across the planes, belief in a plane's power and success.

I also like to think a gate-town is more than just a collection of buildings with people and petitioners in it. It's an idea - it's the transition between two planes. It's the bridge between two alignments.

It might be more than that. I like to think that Ecstasy, for example, isn't just the name of a town - it's the emotion that everyone experiences. Whenever anyone feels the sensation of happiness, halfway between neutral pleasure and the satisfaction of pure altruism, they enter Ecstasy in some sense. Part of their spirit passes through the gate.

Kay
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Gate-towns

'ripvanwormer' wrote:
It might be more than that. I like to think that Ecstasy, for example, isn't just the name of a town - it's the emotion that everyone experiences. Whenever anyone feels the sensation of happiness, halfway between neutral pleasure and the satisfaction of pure altruism, they enter Ecstasy in some sense. Part of their spirit passes through the gate.

Ironically, thats the same a devil might feel when he's torturing a precious captive. Names and reality have a strange relationship, though the Gate Towns' names seem to fit in one way or the other.

Quote:
I also like to think a gate-town is more than just a collection of buildings with people and petitioners in it. It's an idea - it's the transition between two planes. It's the bridge between two alignments.
I thought the same about the gates themselfs. So the Towns are something like the symbolization of the symbolization of a symbol. Or so. Anyway, I think such an emphasis on the Gate Towns as sources of power would be a threat to the inner consistense or balance of the setting, degrating other factors like politics, petitioners, military organization (in the Blood War) and so forth.

Quote:
Prestige is power. The coup of capturing a gate-town affects belief across the planes, belief in a plane's power and success.

That may be correct from the macroperspective. But for the individual fiend? Also, I see power and prestige as two distinct forces, although they often come together. And again, what power and prestige mean to a singe person (fiend) is something different from what they might mean to the race or the great shemes of the multiverse.

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Gate-towns

'Kay' wrote:
Quote:
Prestige is power. The coup of capturing a gate-town affects belief across the planes, belief in a plane's power and success.

That may be correct from the macroperspective. But for the individual fiend? Also, I see power and prestige as two distinct forces, although they often come together. And again, what power and prestige mean to a singe person (fiend) is something different from what they might mean to the race or the great shemes of the multiverse.

In the microperspective it's the fiends success, that makes him more important in the hierarchie, might give him ressources from superiors and even some followers. So there is personal gain in making a gate-town shift.

Kay
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Gate-towns

'Mask' wrote:
'Kay' wrote:
Quote:
Prestige is power. The coup of capturing a gate-town affects belief across the planes, belief in a plane's power and success.

That may be correct from the macroperspective. But for the individual fiend? Also, I see power and prestige as two distinct forces, although they often come together. And again, what power and prestige mean to a singe person (fiend) is something different from what they might mean to the race or the great shemes of the multiverse.

In the microperspective it's the fiends success, that makes him more important in the hierarchie, might give him ressources from superiors and even some followers. So there is personal gain in making a gate-town shift.

Yup. That said, I never wanted to suggest that it would be pointless to make a Gate Town shift.

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Gate-towns

I think it just can be related to conquest on the real world. Like the citizens of a country generally consider they belong to the place and that ít´s interest is theirs, the denizens of an outter plane do. And territory just makes yourself grander, more important, and sometimes for no apparent reason you just want it. Just think of how much the UK and Argentina spent in the Falkland/Malouines war. It almost sunk both governments. And should I remind that the said islands are tiny, barren, deserted and of no economical or strategic interest? But somehow, when your territory is treatened, you feel treatened, when it grows bigger, you feel a little grander as a part of a people that just acquired a bit more of , well, of "something to be wished for"
There´s just no rationnal explanation in wanting territory, except maybe the fact that you could hope for someday having it all, and be the "winner" of the multiverse!

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