Do someone knows what were the rules for the faithless and the false of Toril before the 3rd edition?
In the 3rd edition false and faithless souls are imprisoned in the Fugue Plane, but this can work only with the new FR cosmology. In Planescape, if I remember well, clerics and paladins could decide to not worship a single deity. So, do someone remember what was the fate of those peope born on Toril during the 2nd edition?
Kelemvor/Myrkul/Cyric realm is on Oinos in Hades. How did it work?
So pratically if you are a faithless on Oerth is ok, but on Toril it is a terrible mistake...
Unfair no?
Who ever said the multiverse, or Powers, were fair?
Whoever said the Realms were supposed to be pleasant and likeable? 
If you are a Faithless/False from Toril and you leave Realmspace, does Ao still get to send you to that wall?
If you are a Faithless/False from a sphere other than Toril, move into Realmspace, and eventually die there, does Ao get to send you to that wall?
I don't think it's been addressed in canon.
Probably due to it happening so rarely that only people like us would ever think to discuss it! lol So what if it happens to a couple of hundred adventurers? Millions more 'normal' people who would never be so reckless as to move from their native reality and so it has never been enough of an issue for official writers to care.
Id follow the theory that if you are born on Toril thats where you are bound no matter where you die. Fiends are pulled back to the Lower Planes no matter where they are in the multiverse (in theory). Why should the same not be true for the (some might say more potent) mortal soul upon death?
My two,
Barkin
P.S Happy Holidays to all xxx
In 2nd edition, the Fugue Plain was a realm in the Gray Waste, formally ruled by Myrkul and later ruled by Kelemvor. Many pantheons have realms of the dead in the Gray Waste, including the Greeks, the Celts, the Babylonians, and the Norse, and most of those realms receive good and neutral souls as well as evil ones. Third edition changed the Fugue Plain to the Fugue Plane and made it a plane of its own.
As I suggested in this thread, I'm of the opinion that Torilian faithless end up in Kelemvor's City of Suffering only if they they have faith they will (ironically). People who have been taught that those who reject the gods will be tortured for all eternity will end up in exactly that situation. This is the power of belief: you get the afterlife you expect, more or less. That's not to say that an evil person who thinks he's doing Tyr's will will end up rewarded by Tyr in his Court in Mount Celestia - the belief of one person isn't enough to change Tyr's personality. Tyr will do whatever Tyr does with evil souls. But if you believe the dead go to the Greek Underworld to be judged by Minos, you get that. If you believe the dead go to the Court of Judgment to stand before the proxies of Yen-wang-yeh, you get that instead. If believe there is no afterlife, your soul may simply dissolve.
Frankly, I'm not sure that people in the Forgotten Realms find the situation as terribly unfair as most people seem to think it is. After all, Kelemvor gets to keep the souls of those who don't go to the gods.
But it's not like you're automatically tortured forever because you don't like a god, you just stay in Kel's land.
But yes, I agree you go to Kel's land when you believe in a Toril god.
So pratically if you are born on Toril and you are a faithless you become a brick in the wall of the damned. If you aren't born on Toril you go in the plane that maches you alignment, or if you totally don't believe in anything, you are eaten by tha old big Asmodeus.
I'd assume that only lawful evil spirits go to Asmodeus. The baatezu do purchase neutral evil larvae from the night hags in large quantities, but other than that, I think people who don't believe in anything at all simply dissolve (ref. On Hallowed Ground).
Maybe Asmodeus made a deal with the gods from Toril to get all the souls who don't beleive in anything ONLY from Toril, not the other primes.
Maybe Asmodeus made a deal with the gods from Toril to get all the souls who don't beleive in anything ONLY from Toril, not the other primes.
I think itis the opposite. It is written that the Torilian's soul go to the Damned Wall when no patron deity come to take them. It is also stated that in the multiverse, the soul who die without beliving in NOTHING do no disappear (this is the biggest lie of Asmodeus) but reappear on Nessus regardeless of their allignement.
So probably Jergal made a pact with Asmodeus loooooooong ago and the souls born in Realmspace are the only one who are actually saved from the worst destiny of all.
Note that it is said that to reappear on Nessus a soul has to die without any form of belief. In gods or in a philosofical allignment.
You know, I believe Ed Greenwood may have stated the Wall of the Faithless was for those who not only were Faithless (who just get sent to Kelemvor in general) but also ****ed him off. His word is also always canon unlike other authors.
While non-canon Neverwinter nights 2 seemed to make it clear that it was a holdover from Myrkul's time.
You know, I believe Ed Greenwood may have stated the Wall of the Faithless was for those who not only were Faithless (who just get sent to Kelemvor in general) but also ****ed him off. His word is also always canon unlike other authors.
While non-canon Neverwinter nights 2 seemed to make it clear that it was a holdover from Myrkul's time.
Yes, it is true, but only for those who are born on Toril no?
It seems to me that the wall of the damned existed even during Jergal's age.
I've always thought that the spirits of the dead who did not believe in (or follow) any particular deity became the low-level critters for each particular plane - manes, lemures, larvae, lantern archons, etc. So a person who was Lawful Good but didn't follow any particular divinity would become a lantern archon.
Of course, we need to create similar creatures for each outer plane.
I always interpreted it as meaning that people on Toril who didn't worship any particular god got sent to Kelemvor's Wall while people outside of Toril who didn't worship any particular god but still had plenty of belief got sent to the plane matching their alignment.
And then nihilists with no beliefs at all get eaten by Asmodeus. :mrgreen:
Guide to Hell is one of those books that I advocate ignoring.
Guide to Hell is one of those books that I advocate ignoring.
Why? I don't find it bad. I think that the story of the twin snakes is great. It gives a lot of sense and it is something different from the boring equation of Asmodeus = Fallen Angel (Planescape is not Paradise Lost after all). I mean, it is a legend of the Zoroastrianism.
Asmodeus as a fallen angel isn't cannon either, and it's not at all a popular idea if the discussion here is any indication. The Founding Myth in The Dark of the War is, a far better explanation in my opinion, and it is also from a cannon source, which the other two aren't. There really isn't anything to justify putting Asmodeus above other celestial or fiendish high ups I think. It makes more sense that he's a made up of the spiritual energy of Baator, not some diety or fallen celestial. It's a fair assumption that somebody was the Lord of the Ninth before him, and it's perfectly reasonable to assume that someone will eventually depose him too.
I always interpreted it as meaning that people on Toril who didn't worship any particular god got sent to Kelemvor's Wall while people outside of Toril who didn't worship any particular god but still had plenty of belief got sent to the plane matching their alignment.
And then nihilists with no beliefs at all get eaten by Asmodeus.
Yes, i think this too. The question is if the nihilists with no beliefs born on Toril are eaten too or if they become part of the wall like faithlass. After all Asmodeus plan is based on secrecy. If souls start to desappear like this, Kelemvor would manage to understand that something is wrong (even if he is not really a genius 
).
Asmodeus as a fallen angel isn't cannon either, and it's not at all a popular idea if the discussion here is any indication. The Founding Myth in The Dark of the War is, a far better explanation in my opinion, and it is also from a cannon source, which the other two aren't. There really isn't anything to justify putting Asmodeus above other celestial or fiendish high ups I think. It makes more sense that he's a made up of the spiritual energy of Baator, not some diety or fallen celestial. It's a fair assumption that somebody was the Lord of the Ninth before him, and it's perfectly reasonable to assume that someone will eventually depose him too.
Yes, I read those assumptions on the 1st editio about other lord before him, but again I don't like the idea of mentioning Lucifer and Satanbe as the 1st emperors of Hell, because it is something too related to the Christian religion and less to the Planescape exotic setting. But more than a god in the Guid to Hell he is classified like a corrupted champion of law, probably the leader of the aphaenact, like Jazirian is a sanctified one. Some says that they are ancient breathen like the Lady of Pain and the Snake.
The Founding Myth in The Dark of the War is great, but at the light of the 3rd edition is far more charming to think that the heart of darkness created the obyrith and the ancient baatorian from the 1st larvae and not the 1st baatezu and the first tanar'ri. What do you think?
The heart of darkness can easily work either way. Because I do use obryths and aincient baatorians, I assume that it created them, and that they created the Tanar'ri and Baatezu. Any abysal or infernal lords came from their respective planes or from exceptional individuals.
I reckon Asmodeus booted his predecesor from power (either annother Baatezu or aincient Baatorian, not nescisarily any of the guys mentioned in 1e), and then removed all mention of them 1984 style. If it ever came up in-game, I would make up the ex-Lord of the Ninth myself and lose the Christian mythological feel.
If I recall correctly, they went to Kelemvor's realm in the Grey Wastes regardless of alignment. When Kelemvor got put in charge of the death portfolio, he started creating paradises and hells in his realm to match alignments, but the evil gods started whining that he wasn't fair. ¬_¬