Where is it suggested that the Baernaloths created the Obyriths? I can see the evidence for them creating the Tanar'ri and Baatezu to replace the Obyriths and Ancient Baatorians, respectively, but I haven't found any to support the current encyclopedia entries.
Encyclopedia Article - Obyrith
Fiendish Codex I, p. 107:
Pants of the North!
Ah - so it's still couched in terms of myth not fact. That ought to be noted. (Cause I'd buy it for the tannarri and the baatazu, but not for their predecessors.)
Edit: I just checked the entry and it noted it as a yugoloth legend, so we're green.
Are the baernoloths more the NE equivalents of the Obyriths and Baatorians?
As far as I'm concerned they are.
I'm trying to resolve, in my mind, the idea that Baernaloths made (or helped the Yugoloths make) Tanar'ri and Baatezu to either replace or preoccupy their enemies, which I really like, with all the stuff about Obyriths creating the Tanar'ri as servents, which is supported by the whole Miska the Wolfspider thing. I really do not feel like resorting to "it's all just fiendish coverups" or "primes writing about stuff they don't know" again.
How about tanarri writing about stuff they don't know about?
As far as antiquity goes, the baernaloths are older. The "pure" alignments came first, according to the Hellbound timeline, while the "mixed" ones didn't come until later.
I favor the idea that the baernaloths created the ancient Baatorians, personally, and I've actually argued this since before 3rd edition.
My argument mainly centers around the nature of nupperibos. Nupperibos, as we know, are the immature forms of the ancient Baatorians. They evolve naturally from larvae. In this way, they're like the tanar'ri of the Abyss.
The legend of the Heart of Darkness says that the General of Gehenna purged the yugoloths of their lawful and chaotic impurities, and these impurities became larvae, which were driven to Baator and the Abyss by the 'loths, where they evolved into the tanar'ri and baatezu. Except baatezu don't evolve from larvae! Nupperibos do. Baatezu were a later addition - perhaps the yugoloths had a hand in their creation as well, as they claim, or perhaps they had another origin. Regardless, they inherited their teleportation ability from their ancient predecessors.
The Fiendish Codex I is pretty insistent that the tanar'ri were created by the obyriths, rather than the yugoloths. Having the obyriths created by the yugoloths is a decent compromise.
Okay, I can see the whole part about Ancient Baatorians being created by Baern, because the whole natural evolution of the larva has been bothering me for a while. That opens up a whole new can of worms regarding who it was that they replaced.
However, I still can't reconcile whether or not Baernaloths or Obyriths made the Tanar'ri.
WARNING: Stream of Consciousness
I can't organize my thoughts right now, so my ramblings follow.
If the Baern are indeed the very first race of NE exemplar, and thus the first Evil exemplar in general, then they might have had a hand during the formation of the less cardinal planes. In my opinion, larvae are not the natural form of evil petitioners (which I can see being hordelings, who are pure evil but have both chaotic and lawful elements), but rather enforced by some ancient machinations of the Bearn, perhaps to cleanse their chosen Yugoloth race. Could they maybe have funnelled the then new mortal spirits into the larva, which were designed to turn into Baatorians and Tanar'ri. Obyriths did not evolve from mortal spirits, at least not the mortals as we know them today. If the Bearn designed the larva to evolve into forms already established by the Obyriths, aka the Tanar'ri, then they simply tipped the scales against the Obyriths by giving them too much of a good thing, a very Baern thing to do. If the ancient war in which the Obyriths were overthrown was fought against the Baatorians, then I see a Baern plan emerging. Create an enemy to distract the Obyriths, plant an ever growing enemy within their own ranks, not instantly recognizable, and then let Obyrith wipe out Baatorian (or drive them into hiding), Tanar'ri wipe out Obyrith, and celestials clean up. Except the Tanar'ri were too successful, and redesigning larva was not an option, so the Baern created the Baatezu to keep the Tanar'ri eternally busy via the bloodwar, so carefully supported by the Yugoloths.
It's possible that Baator and the Abyss didn't exist before the Heart of Darkness mixed Law and Chaos with Evil. Perhaps that's when those planes first formed.
The baernaloths and obyriths might have created the tanar'ri in conjunction. Shemeska wrote a story that features a baernaloth creating the tanar'ri race by essentially raping the obyrith Pale Night.
Note that hordlings evolve from larvae, just as nupperibos and manes do.
Do hordelings evolve from larvae? I thought that thy simply appear, in uncountable number, in the Grey Waste, nobody the wiser as to where exactly they come from or how there are that many evil souls to support their numbers. It seems the weak souls turn into larvae, the strong souls turn into hordelings. What souls does that leave to fuel Yugoloth life? I have no clue. And where the hell do Night Hags come from?
That's the angle that I take on the matter as well. The act of driving out/herding the first law and chaos spawn of the Heart of Darkness out of the Waste was the formative thing that sparked the Abyss and Baator into existance (though Baator may have been subsequently rearranged upon the arrival of the first Baatezu).
According to James Jacobs, the line in FC:I regarding Pale Night having potentially been the Obyrith responsible for the creation of the first Tanar'ri was inspired by that story of mine.
Now granted I wrote the story with perspective of the original Heart of Darkness mythos of Faces of Evil, with the 'loths/Baernaloths having made the Tanar'ri and Baatezu rather than the Obyriths and Ancient Baatorians. But Jacobs and Mona did a nice enough job with FC:I that they've won me over on the variation of that myth that they presented.
I'm happy with the Obyriths and Ancient Baatorians being the creations of the Baernaloths/'loths, and the myth that included the Tanar'ri and Baatezu being well, a lie, a purposeful lie on the truth because it's more advantageous to the 'loths to insinuate that they had a hand in making the current powers-that-be rather than the more ancient, almost forgotten races that they actually did have a hand in the formation of.
I'll probably rework the Baern cycle story that's been in progress for a while featuring the Shackler to adhere to FC:I's variation on the Heart of Darkness myth.
Hordelings do evolve from a fraction of exceptional larvae.
Probably anything that dies on the Waste, be it petitioners, larvae, hordelings, hags, etc. and merges with the plane would in its purified and rendered down form go to making more mezzoloths. But the soul componant is probably incidental to making more 'loths, since they were being pumped out before mortal life was around to fuel them. I'd posit that the inclusion of rendered down soulstuff to the melting pot of 'loths probably opens up the 'loths to having the risk of corrupted members of there race that might rise to another alignment (such as Felthis ap Jerran, etc).
And Night Hags procreate with fiends, mortal men, and possibly evolve from hordelings (the first hags presumably came from hordelings). Joyblood wrote up something on the hordeling connection to night hags that was really well put together, but the link eludes me at the moment.
I will need to know which is the version you're going with for your current campaign as it is *directly* relevant to my character and his loyalties. Aka - if it's this way then there's a serious conflict of interest with about 9 levels of my prestige classes.
Okay, then, more rambling from me.
Baernaloths came first, from whatever protoevil entity that appeared on the planes. Lacking the fundamental ability to produce more of their own but having more than enough power to shape the very processes of the planes, the Baern set to work in creating the Yugoloth. Majority of Baern go into hibernation, as do seeminglly the rest of the ancient exemplars, leaving only a few Demented to continue their works. One of these, Apomps, goes barmy (aka infused with chaos) and abandons the greater project to produce his own personal avatar race from the refuse of life. The planes are still being formed from the beliefs of whatever started the whole thing (probably one or more Far Realm entities whose particular brand of randomness is now known as normality), and the Material Plane is still a big goop of chaos. As the Baern finish the Yugoloth, they discover that rather than embracing all aspects of evil as they do themselves, their progeny end up sliding one direction or the other on the newly forming law/chaos axis. They cleanse their new race of impurities, dividing away the law and chaos and thereby forming the predecessors of Baator and the Abyss. The planes are naturally rearranged to create similar divisions in Good. The resulting creatures of Evil Chaos, the Obyriths, begin to appear from the very fabric of the new plane. The chaotic nature of the abyss also accidentally creates an infinite loop, making it he only plane that is spacially infinite to the second degree. This inifnity is based on the nature of belief, thus creating a semblence of life and a mutability in the layers, which require a lord for prolonged survival. The obyrith hordes quickly grow and evolve, posing a threat for the slowly developing Yugoloths. At this time, the Material Plane is brought into order, and the first forms of advanced, if not necessarily intelligent, life appear. The oldest races, such as dragons, also settle the Material Plane. The influx of newly recognizeable, at least to us, beliefs and souls begin to flood and shape the outer planes. The Baern take the evil in these and funnel it into the formation of a particular form of petitioner, the larva, which retains the ability to become either law or chaos oriented, thus evolving into whatever the planes would naturally produce from raw belief. The 'loths approach the future Queen of Chaos and/or the Sybriexes with the knowledge of how to 'create' and thus control the new forms of life that are appearing in the Abyss. The Obyriths jump at the chance for servants, unwittingly setting up their own downfall. Baator, fueled by the new mortal souls and beliefs, begins to finally be populated by its own race, the Baatorians, which grow in a logical but slow progression. The Obyriths, with prompting from the 'loths, see the new LE exmplars as competition, and launch a war on the unprepared devils, which are forced into hiding. This, however, gives the Tanar'ri their chance to overthrow their 'masters', and while the celestials attempt to destroy all demon-kind during the civil war, the tanar'ri persevere by spreading through the infinite layers of the abyss, which is constantly pumping out new forms. To combat this new threat, the yugoloths modify the children of the Baatorian race to speed up its germination. This creates the Baatezu, which while still lawful, have enough chaos in them to stand a chance against the tanar'ri. Through skill rather than numbers, the new race sets a brutal dictatorship under the heading of Asmodeus, planted by the Baern or 'loths themselves, and suppresses any mention of their origins, soon forgetting and fearing it themselves. The yugoloths mastermind the Blood War, keeping both sides busy and in need of 'loth services, thereby ensuring their survival. Meanwhile, the larvae that are not allowed or forced to slide into either law or chaos shatter, perhaps much like the Grey Wastes themselves (see theory of obelisks being pins holding the plane together), into multiple fragments, creating hordes of hordelings. Either those that do not shatter, or those that manage to recombine after they do, become Night Hags, possibly through the intervention of a deity or Baernaloth posing as such (Cegilune). These creatures, unlike the Yugoloth, are formed almost directly from mortal thoughts and thus contain 'impurities', but they are set up to assist the 'loth in fueling the Blood War, albeit as merchants rather than plotters.
Hm. I'm of the same mindset actually - though I don't have a copy of either Fiend Folios ..... could someone that does scour those and give some direct page references for those aspects of the articles?