So I came across an interesting conundrum the other day. What would the dusties think of the Deathless (good aligned. positive energy powered, undead equivalent detailed in Eberron and the Book of Exalted Deeds)? On the one hand, they're powered by the opposite of what undead are and have something of a more vibrant nature than undead (not to mention their name). OTOH, one could make a strong argument that the Deathless probably have a lot more self control than the undead, being nigh immortal but without much of the cravings or hatred that dominates the undead experience, and thus embody the Dustmen philosophies a lot better than undead. Might be a point of contention among the Dustmen themselves (well, as much as a bunch of unemotional guys can be)?
Dustmen and the Deathless
The Dustmen are like Buddhists; they believe that existence is pain, that pain is caused by passions, and the goal of "life" should be to overcome all passions and thus end the cycle of reincarnation. Buddhists call this state "nirvana," while the Dustmen call it True Death. It's essentially the same.
They differ from standard Buddhists in that some of them (not necessarily all of them) believe that undead are closer to achieving nirvana than the living. Some (not all of them, but Skall does) believe that undeath is even an essential step before True Death can be finally be attained.
They also differ from Buddhists in their particular cosmic origin story: that the reason that existence is pain is that everyone is dead and true life can no longer be achieved. The arrow of time only moves forward. Only full death offers release. One consequence of this is that the Negative Energy Plane is thought to be closer to True Death than the Positive Energy Plane is. Logically, then, the deathless would be moving in the wrong direction, grasping at false life rather than embracing death. That doesn't mean being a deathless couldn't offer any valuable insights to those attempting to achieve True Death, but it means that ultimately, if they want to pass on to the next level, they'll have to abandon their deathless existence and embrace true undeath.
However, note that in 2nd edition, when the Dustmen were created, not all undead were negative energy-powered. Mummies were said to be positive energy-powered, as the deathless were in 3e.
I would also note that not all undead are dominated by hunger or hate. The necropolitans from Libris Mortis are the kind of unaligned undead that many Dustmen should strive to become. There are good liches. Ghosts have no particular alignment or need to feed. I think undead in general who join the Dustmen will use Dustmen (Buddhist) meditation techniques to learn to calm down and control their passions, so that even Dustmen vampires may learn to exist without feeding. There should be a faction feat that allows any Dustman, living or undead, to exist without needing to eat anything tangible (probably empowering themselves directly with negative energy).
Also, note that not every Dustman necessarily agrees that being undead is a necessary prerequisite to True Death. Skall thinks it is, but he's biased, being undead himself. Ordi Malefin (The Factol's Manifesto, page 55) is possibly the closest of all Dustmen to attaining True Death, and she's alive. If Ordi can do it, probably a deathless could.
I personally think deathless could embody the dustman ideal as well as anything else, and probably better than the living.
As a practicing Zen Buddhist, I feel oblidged to point out that Buddhism promotes compassion first and foremost. [Have you seen the Dahli Lama - he's a happy caring guy] So I'm not sure that is really the position of the Dustmen.
But with the exception of renaming what you called "Buddhism" to something else like "stoicism"; I would agree with you
Zen Buddhism is sort of different from Theravada Buddhism and Mahayana Buddhism. I think Rip Van Wormer was referring to Theravada Buddhism (which seems closer to the initial conception of Buddhism). Compassion I think can fairly be seen as the end point of following the Eight Fold Path, but is not a goal in itself, as the retention of something like a desire for compassionate existence would be counter to achieving enlightenment.
While Mahayana Buddhism emphasizes the outcome of a compassionate existence and things like Bodhisattva (and is generally more socially oriented like most major religions), Theravada Buddhism seems to more see enlightenment as an end in itself, and ultimately a more individual pursuit. Hence why Mahayana is literally "Great Vehicle" Buddhism and Theravada "little vehicle" (intended to be pejorative, and I believe created by Mahayana Buddhists). Mahayana is the Great Vehicle because it sees salvation as a social project that ultimately includes all life.
Personally, I divide dustmen in a similar way, with those who see the need to proselytize and those who see True Death as a personal path.
We should probably stop this soon as the topic should be about the Dustmen faction; but a few things:
1) 'Theravada' means 'teaching of the elders.'
'Hinayana' means' 'small vehicle' and was actually a slur against Theravada
2) It's debateable if Mahayana or Theravada was 'first' or 'closest to the original'
3) But you are right in that Theravada might be viewed as a Dustman attitude as being transcendent comes first; and any compassionate enlightment that comes as a result of this is [to grossly simplify it] just a pleasant byproduct.
I was thinking of my stumbling blocks to understanding Zen, which is an offshoot of Mahayana.
I originally felt that purging emotions and having compassion simultaneously was a contradiction. So when it looked like VanWormer was repeating my stumble, I spoke up; forgetting that there was a whole separate school of thought.
OK, that's all I'll say on it.
I tend to support this interpretation too. The 2e PCCS says they respect the undead based on the premise, however faulty it might be, that the undead have removed themselves from the world of passions.
They differ from standard Buddhists in that some of them (not necessarily all of them) believe that undead are closer to achieving nirvana than the living. Some (not all of them, but Skall does) believe that undeath is even an essential step before True Death can be finally be attained.
They also differ from Buddhists in their particular cosmic origin story: that the reason that existence is pain is that everyone is dead and true life can no longer be achieved. The arrow of time only moves forward. Only full death offers release. One consequence of this is that the Negative Energy Plane is thought to be closer to True Death than the Positive Energy Plane is. Logically, then, the deathless would be moving in the wrong direction, grasping at false life rather than embracing death. That doesn't mean being a deathless couldn't offer any valuable insights to those attempting to achieve True Death, but it means that ultimately, if they want to pass on to the next level, they'll have to abandon their deathless existence and embrace true undeath.
However, note that in 2nd edition, when the Dustmen were created, not all undead were negative energy-powered. Mummies were said to be positive energy-powered, as the deathless were in 3e.
I would also note that not all undead are dominated by hunger or hate. The necropolitans from Libris Mortis are the kind of unaligned undead that many Dustmen should strive to become. There are good liches. Ghosts have no particular alignment or need to feed. I think undead in general who join the Dustmen will use Dustmen (Buddhist) meditation techniques to learn to calm down and control their passions, so that even Dustmen vampires may learn to exist without feeding. There should be a faction feat that allows any Dustman, living or undead, to exist without needing to eat anything tangible (probably empowering themselves directly with negative energy).
Also, note that not every Dustman necessarily agrees that being undead is a necessary prerequisite to True Death. Skall thinks it is, but he's biased, being undead himself. Ordi Malefin (The Factol's Manifesto, page 55) is possibly the closest of all Dustmen to attaining True Death, and she's alive. If Ordi can do it, probably a deathless could.
I personally think deathless could embody the dustman ideal as well as anything else, and probably better than the living.
Some wise insight here. You're right, they never expressed any disgust against mummies before (the closest precedence that we have to the Deathless). You're also correct that linking oneself to a source of life might seem contrary to their reverence for death, however, going in the opposite direction (undeath) seems in most cases to undermine their primary goal (to let go of the confining passions).
Undeath would seem to hinder more than to facilitate any sort of moderation of the passions. A vampire who joined the faction, for example, wouldn't just have to overcome her own passions but also overcome the corrupting influence of undeath and the dependence on blood. Even a ghost, with no obvious physical cravings like the vamp, is only around because he can't let go of his unfinished business. Of all the undead, only the necropolitans (and some liches) seem to really fit the Dustmen mold.
OTOH, perhaps one could make the argument that overcoming these heightened difficulties is a needed step for the development of True Death. As in, you can only achieve the self discipline needed for True Death by personally overcoming the urges that come from the undead state.
My take on the Dustmen (which may or not be standard) is that they idolize the dead not because of the ties to the Negative Energy Plane but because of a warped form of stoicism.
In my mind, the Dustmen want to take Star Trek's Vulcan philosophy to the next degree. They want to be beyond all emotions (fear, love, etc.) And who better represents an unemotional being than a dead man.
If this is how you interpret their stance, then the Deathless would be even better ideals than the typical undead who still have some hungers (for blood, etc.)
But I know a lot of people interpret the Dustmen agenda more as "goth kids". (And honestly, sometime the protestations of wanting to feel nothing are just attempts to deal with one's own melancholia) If you prefer this outlook, then the melancholy would probably feel more akin to the standard undead (although I doubt the undead would return the sense of affinity)
Personally, I felt this take would make them too similar to the Bleakers; but that's just how I feel.
Personally, I like your idea that this might be a point of contention within the faction. I always try to incorporate a conflict within any plane or group I create as I feel that it creates more potential for ideas. Nothing is so dull as when everyone agrees on everything.