Dual Natures of Outer Planes

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Narfi Ref's picture
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Dual Natures of Outer Planes

It seems to me that several of the Outer Planes, in addition to their allignment traits, have a secondary theme that is largely neutral and only indirectly related to the plane's allignment. The most blatant example of this is the Gray Wastes. In addition to being the Neutral Evil plane, The Gray Wastes is also the home of several Powers of Death that shouldn't neccessarily be called Evil. Three examples of real world Death Deities that keep their Realms their are Hel, Hades, and Arawn. These shouldn't be stereotyped as Evil, just because people think Death is icky. These Deities basically watch over the souls of the dead that aren't picked out as special by the other gods of their pantheons.

So that means that the Gray Wastes has a second nature dealing with Death. I've tried to figure out what the theme's are of the others that aren't allignment based; some were easy, others were not. Here's what I have so far:
Abyss: ?
Acheron: Militaristic Warfare
Arboria: ?
Arcadia: ?
Baator:?
Beastlands: Wilderness
Bytopia: Simplicity? Domestication?
Carceri: Impersonment/Banishment
Elysium: ?
Gehenna: Struggle
Gray Wastes: Death
Limbo: Will
Mechanus: Technology
Mount Celestia: ?
Outlands: Mundanity?
Pandaemonium: Madness
Ysgard: Heroic Warfare

Any ideas on how to fill this list out?

Kay
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Dual Natures of Outer Planes

I think of the "theme-thing" just the same way. I'd add Happyness to Elysium (quite obvious, indeed). Acheron feels like "pointless warfare and struggle just for the sake of it" than militaristic. The Outlands, though, don't seem to have any specific theme. It's kinda indifferent to it's inhabitands (except for suppresing magical and psionic power).

ripvanwormer's picture
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Factol
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Dual Natures of Outer Planes

There was a great thread on this subject recently on the Wizards boards. Rather than repeat its findings, I'll just link to it.

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Dual Natures of Outer Planes

Great thread, but unfortunately I can't add to it. This is unfortunate because I disagree with much of it. Most of the themes that people came up with seem to be nothing more than distilations of the allignments. For example, acording to this thread Mechanus's theme is Order, but Order is just another way of saying Law. Also, saying the theme of the Beastlands is Independence doesn't explain why the vast majority of the plane is filled with wild animals and nature spirts, beings generally associated with Neutrality; if the theme were merely Independence, then it would express itself in more ways than just wildreness.

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factotums
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Dual Natures of Outer Planes

I agree, Narfi Ref. My own additions to your list would be:

Abyss: Inhospitability
Acheron: Reasonless Warfare
Arboria: Art and Emotion
Arcadia: Perfection
Baator: Treacherous Politics
Beastlands: Wild Animals and their Environments
Bytopia: Simplicity (as from the Fellowship of the Ring movie "It is no bad thing to celebrate a simple life")
Carceri: Impersonment
Elysium: Bliss
Gehenna: Struggle
Gray Wastes: Death
Limbo: Will
Mechanus: Technology
Mount Celestia: Improvement
Outlands: Indefinity
Pandaemonium: Madness
Ysgard: Heroism

ripvanwormer's picture
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Dual Natures of Outer Planes

'Narfi Ref' wrote:
Acheron: Militaristic Warfare

This only applies to Avalas, the first layer. Avalas is warfare, Thuldanin is the ruins of warfare, Tintibulus is magic (or even emptiness, when not even ruins are left), and Ocanthus is blades. The theme that ties them together is Conformity.

Quote:
Beastlands: Wilderness

The Beastlands' theme is animals. Wilderness is just a side-effect of this.

Quote:
Bytopia: Simplicity? Domestication?

Cooperation, community, industriousness, symbiosis. "Industiousness" is the theme that Planes of Conflict emphasizes, though I think Cooperation is better for the plane - the union of two unlike qualities for the greater good.

Quote:
Carceri: Impersonment/Banishment

Treachery. It is a plane of imprisonment (as is Pandemonium, Ravenloft, and the Plane of Ooze), but the imprisonment is caused/sustained by the treacherous nature of its prisoners.

Quote:
Gehenna: Struggle

Exploitation.

Quote:
Gray Wastes: Death

No, it's not a plane of dying, but it is a plane of the dead. The first layer, Oinos, is primarily about disease, the second layer is mists/cold, and the third layer, perhaps shades. Each layer has realms of the dead, so I suppose you could claim that "The Dead" was the theme, but each layer is much more than that. The theme that ties the plane together is Despair.

Quote:
Mechanus: Technology

Pretty much just clockwork.

Quote:
Outlands: Mundanity?

If any outer plane has "mundanity" as a theme, it doesn't belong as part of Planescape. Fortunately, there's nothing mundane about the Outlands - the home of gods and spirits, with mountains vaster than entire Prime worlds (including an infinite spire), oceans deeper, plains vaster, deserts dryer than anything known on the Prime.

Quote:
Ysgard: Heroic Warfare

As with Acheron, "warfare" is only a theme on this plane's first layer. The second layer, Muspelheim, has the theme of Fire. The third layer, Nidavellir, is about darkness/artisanship. The theme that ties them together is Creativity/Inspiration or perhaps Heroism.

As for the others:

Mount Celestia: Virtue. The entire plane is built around the Virtues, and you need to better comprehend the Virtues in order to rise from one layer to the next.

Elysium: Self-Knowledge/Understanding.

Beastlands: Dreams/Archetypes

Arborea: Passion/Stories/Memory

Ysgard: Inspiration/Beginnings/Endings/Fire and Ice and Earth

Limbo: "Will" isn't bad, but it's only one aspect of the plane. Change/metamorphosis is probably just as important.

Pandemonium: Madness/Darkness/Wind

Abyss: Atrocity. Each layer is more atrocious than the last.

Carceri: Betrayal

Hades: Despair or, more obviously, Grayness

Gehenna: Exploitation or, more obviously, Volcanoes

Baator: Political Corruption

Acheron: Conformity/War

Mechanus: Clockwork/Mathematics

Arcadia: Harmony

Outlands: Balance/Différance/the Tao/blending/juxtaposition

Iavas's picture
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factotums
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Dual Natures of Outer Planes

rip has a point. It's not so much the dual nature of the planes as each plane (or each planar layer, in some cases) has its own set of ideas that it embodies. Some have more, some have less. Tying them down to just one would be as silly as only describing them with their alignment.

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Dual Natures of Outer Planes

Honestly, i'd like to see someone sit down sometime and put together netbooks for each plane. Exploring these sort of themes, the characters and personas that exemplify it - and modules for it....

Iavas's picture
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factotums
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Dual Natures of Outer Planes

What's a netbook and does that include expanding the entries under the Encyclopedia?

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Dual Natures of Outer Planes

A netbook is something like the PSCS that we have here.

It's a online only book - usually PDF, sometimes doc or rtf and the reaaaallly old ones are just plain old text files. Eye-wink

Duckluck's picture
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Dual Natures of Outer Planes

Honestly, I think the planes are too complex to easilly describe with just a one word theme and an alignment. Plus in most instances the different layers have different themes anyway. Look at Elysium, It's first layer is unadulterated joy, its second layer is self-improvement, its third layer is imprisonment or protectiion, and it's fourth layer is the hero's reward. Besides the obvious theme of goodness, its hard to define Elysium if you say the primary trait is Euphoria, you are mostly talking about the first layer, and the third layer sticks out like a sore thumb. It's the same thing for several other planes too.

An interesting way of looking at is is to consider what each plane isn't. All the strongly alligned planes have two parallel and one opposite plane, and all the planes of conflict have have two parallels and one clear opposite, and might have another opposite, too. Some of these are more obvious than others. The parallel planes are "corrupted" versions of the plane where many things are the same but a basic precept of the plane has been warped, while opposite planes are almost polar opposites of each other. Parallel planes are on opposite sides of one alignment axis, while opposite planes are on the opposite sides of both alignment axises.

For instance, Baator can pretty well be described as organized cruelty its parallel planes are Celestia (organized benevolence) and the Abyss (random cruelty). Naturally, its opposite plane is Arboria (random benevolence).

The Neutral-aligned planes all have clear opposites on the other side of the aisle (Hades/Elysium, and Mechanus/Limbo), and their "parallels" are the corner alignments on their side of the ring. For instance, Elysium is simply benevolence while it's paralels are organized and random benevolence.

The planes of conflict are a little bit trickier, and totally open for debate, but the parallel planes are the one "on the other side of the chart" (Arcadia/Ysgard, etc), and the other "Neutral X" plane (Gehenna/Carceri for instance), the Opposite planes the ones that is on the opposite side of the aisle and the other side of neutral. Note that while this means that a plane of conflict should have two opposite planes, some of them don't seem to have any clear thematic relation to one another (Acheron and the Beastlands, for instance), and I'm not going to try to force one on them. They pretty much all have one clear opposite though. Acheron has Ysgard (the Horror and Glory of war respectively), Arcadia (Maintaning an orderly society for the common good), has Pandemonium (Chaotic infighting for the common loss) , Bytopia (cooperation) has Carceri (treachery), and Gehenna (nature gone wrong) has the Beastlands (nature gone right). Just another way to look at it.

Moral Decay's picture
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Dual Natures of Outer Planes

I like most of the double torus view of the Planes. In this model, Elysium goes with Life or Benevolence towards Life (which explains the otherwise puzzling guardinals.) The Beastlands take this and add more chaotic influence. (Also, the rest of the Benevolent Planes fit mostly humanoid beliefs about paradise. The Beastlands help remedy this imbalance.)

The Gray Waste goes with Death, but especially Death of the Spirit. We might throw in deception, since everyone living on the sodding plane pretends to have color in their appearance. But I'll have more on that when I'm awake.

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Dual Natures of Outer Planes

'ripvanwormer' wrote:
Abyss: Atrocity. Each layer is more atrocious than the last.

And more atrocious than the next.

__________________

Pants of the North!

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Re: Dual Natures of Outer Planes

While I agree that the planes shouldn’t be reduce to a few words for its description or to limit their themes; I do find that these broad categories actually help me to flesh out new ideas much more than being told “It is a plane of Lawful Neutral to Lawful Goodness”. It should inspire ideas not limit one's choices.
Saying that, I’ve modified the planes quite a bit (including adding ten more layers - which I won't get into here) so some of these may not apply perfectly to the canonical model, but here are the themes I use:

*Abyss: Destruction, anhilation
In my mind demons seek to destroy the creations of the gods whereas devils seek to usurp the control of the existing order (as they see themselves as superior beings). Some demons are just engines of destructions while others destroy things in more subtle ways (e.g. destroying a person’s faith, destroying the love in a person’s marriage, etc.)

*Acheron: Pointless conflict, the futility of war.
I have those that die in conflict here rise from the dead the next day and be forced to join the nearest military unit regardless of one’s personal interest. Your foe one day becomes your fellow soldier the next. After a while, the futility sets in but you HAVE to keep on fighting

*Arborea: Passion, living life with gusto and bravado
My version is more Greek myth and less elfin

*Arcadia: Seeking the best means to govern
I took my lead from the sugeestions on the Planar Renovation Project, which I think makes the plane much more interesting place to visit – here different groups compete to determine which one has the best model to create a Utopia

*Baator: Tyrrany, controlling others
See my distinction regarding devils and demons under “The Abyss”

*Beastlands: Nature, the ideal of the “noble savage” who finds “civilization” to be corrupting to one’s soul and which isolates you from nature

*Bytopia: Invention, creativity, ingenuity
Again see some suggestions under the Planar Rennovation Project

*Carceri: Imprisonment, bitter resentment (which leads to betrayals)
I incorporated a lot of Kafka-esque themes and the paranoia aspect of Bentham’s Panopticon prison design into my personal re-design of this plane

*Elysium: Life, healing
I make this a plane where miraculous remedies can be attained, if one can demonstrate one’s goodness. But I also added some areas with odd results: e.g. an area where fertility is so powerful a force, that men can get pregnant; an area where healing occurs but often with a beneficial (but unsightly) mutation (like a drowned man who is brought back to life with gills)

*Gehenna: Bullying and intimidation
I pictured this as a plane with various Mafia-type organizations and street gangs all trying to gain more power over the other. It doesn’t usually result in conflict like the Blood War but it is very uncomfortable to be a weak person being pressured, intimidated and manipulated by these groups

*Grey Wastes: Death, emotional death

*Limbo: Chaos, change

*Mechanus: Law, regularity and routine

*Mount Celestia: Virtue, striving to improve oneself

*Outlands: Balance
Admittedly, I haven’t found a good use for this plane except as a starting-point or middle-ground to the rest of the planes. I’d love to see the Planar Renovation Project tackle this one

*Pandemonium: Madness, hidden secrets
I added that while it causes madness, sometimes it also grants deep insights or secrets to the multiverse. Most people still wouldn’t risk it; but sometimes people can pick up secrets from the babbling of the mad

*Ysgard: Heroic glory
I had this differ from the heroics of Arborea/Olympus by having the petitioners here embrace the Norse idea that the brave forge their own destinies (comparable to the philosopher of the Fated). The Greek petitioners perform heroics for the glory of the tale that will be told. The Norse petitioners perform heroics so that their own personal glory that people would remember

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Re: Dual Natures of Outer Planes

Well, some of these have more to do with alignment, but:

Gray Waste: disease, apathy, despair, uncaringness (note how the nighthags and loths, more than any other group, make the petitioners into mere commodities. Nig Hags are the center of the larvae trade, and even make them into things like food, cattle, and one-shot magic items (just my theory). The Yugoloths use them as parchment, and use torture of petitioners as a pass-time. Unlike the Baatezu and Tanar'ri who torture their petitioners for a purpose (for refining them into soldiers), the Yugoloths simply torture as a means of solitary amusement, much in the way that one would work out a crossword puzzle. The Gray Waste in particular embodies aspects of depression and dysphoria, and the apathy is a part of that. While depression certainly is not evil, causing or or denying someone treatment for it most definitely would be. While there are dangerous, savage beasts that do not typify depression (other than how it devours you), most aspects of the Gray Waste sans what takes place on Oinos between the hags and the loths typify depression (and trust me, I've suffered from it for years). The lack of color represents anhedonia-- a rather devastating symptom where normally endorphin-releasing pleasurable activities such as eating, sex, and exersize no longer bring about any pleasure.
The landscape is typified as either barren or full of dead or weeping trees, which embodies seasonal dysphoric disorder (I also have this, and it sucks. It's also known as the "Winter Blues", and is caused by a lack of sunlight exposure and Vitamin D levels, though the second most common complaint is depression over everything being or looking dead.) Apathy is a horrible symptom of depression, and results in a nasty feedback loop (lack of exersize or stimulation-seeking activities makes the depression worse).

Both Carceri and Gehenna have the inhospitality theme going.

Carceri: betrayal, paranoia, imprisonment, desolation, inhospitality, mercilessness

Gehenna: mercilessness (as embodied by the sloped volcanoes), disaster and destruction

The abyss and baator are far too varied to easily categorize, though savagery/might makes right and violence do typify the abyss, while legalism, opportunism (esp. of loopholes), and byzantian laws/procedures/contracts typify Baator.

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Re: Dual Natures of Outer Planes

This thread on ENWorld has an interesting take on outer planar themes.

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