Draconic pantheon

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Draconic pantheon

The draconic pantheon was always one of my favorites and one of first got to know better. Al thanks to appearance of Tiamat in the old D&D cartoon, which, together with Baldur's Gate got me interested into the PnP version of D&D. The Dragon Queen also got me interested into Mesopotamian mythology. With is also where begins the topic which I would like to discuss. In D&D we see two faces of Tiamat , one is as the queen, mother and goddess of chromatic dragons, child of Io, sibling and archenemy of Bahamut, but on the other hand we see the Babylonian(and perhaps Akkadian) primal goddess, mother of gods and monsters. We cannot say they simply share the same name because there are treated as one deity, for sample in Forgotten Realms Unther. Bahamut also seems to be the same god in Faerun as Marduk, because of the evidence that he used the name Marduk long before the orcgate incident. I wondered how this possible, and one day I got the 2e version of Draconomicon and discovered the “Book of world" creation myth, were Asgorath is presented as a female Tiamat-like deity rather than Io, red dragons are here the first dragon species and Bahamut is the renegade child of Tiamat who created the metallic dragons and caused the creation of other types. I know it may be at least partially a red dragon propaganda, but it inspired me to create a theory.
Maybe Tiamat was the first one to use the name Asgorath and created by Io as mother to all dragons but somehow lost this position and name, becoming evil after the death of her husband Apsu(who would the father of all dragons), and being defeated and killed by Marduk( the same as Bahamut and Xymor) and resurrected in today’s form. Bahamut’s biological parents would be Lendys(Enki) and Tamara(Damkina, Ninhursag) but Io would be Bahamuts “spiritual” father (like Yahweh in some interpretations of Jesus's birth). Null(Falzure or Chronepsis) would be Kur the first king of underworld in Mesopotamian mythology.
Io before taking Asgorath as a name would be known as Zorquan in Faerun. He would be also the primal Anu(An) which name took later a younger deity like later did Nanna-Sin.
I know this article is a bit Faerun-centric, but its because 2e Draconomicon was a FR product and Unther is in Toril.

Sorry for any grammatical errors, Im not a Native English speaker, and I hadn’t wrote in English for almost a Year

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Re: Draconic pantheon

Saint Cthulhu wrote:
Bahamut’s biological parents would be Lendys(Enki) and Tamara(Damkina, Ninhursag) but Io would be Bahamuts “spiritual” father (like Yahweh in some interpretations of Jesus's birth). Null(Falzure or Chronepsis) would be Kur the first king of underworld in Mesopotamian mythology. Io before taking Asgorath as a name would be known as Zorquan in Faerun. He would be also the primal Anu(An) which name took later a younger deity like later did Nanna-Sin. I know this article is a bit Faerun-centric, but its because 2e Draconomicon was a FR product and Unther is in Toril.

I do not know how much my view on mythology applies to D&D powers, but I wouldn't put the gods into the three dimensional frame of mortal lifeforms.
A god/dess and his/her faith tend to shape each other. The concept of space and time need not apply to deities. For example the great Egyptian god Amun is, historically seen, a rather young god, but nevertheless is regarded as the first god and creator of the world by his mythology (and, depending on the particular myth, the same time younger than, say, Ptah). The same applies to the god of the Abrahamic religions, and other gods that can't be traced back to the beginnings of history.
When it works this way in reality, it should particulary do so on the planes, where belief noticeable shapes reality. So, if everyone believes that Tiamat was the first dragon deity, then she was the first to be around (and up to this moment, she is the first for those who already believe it is so).

But then, I'm just assuming here that the real world development of gods and faith applies on D&D deities as well... Eye-wink

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Re: Draconic pantheon

I must admit that saying about a power to biological child and spiritual child of another one isn’t quite correct but I lacked better words to describe this situation. Also I took the inspiration of Dragon Queen as a degenared form of Asgorath from the fact that the real world Tiamat is probably a degenerated form of Sumerian primal mother-goddess Nammu.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nammu
Such a degeneration could cause the belief of chromatic dragon in more violent version of Tiamat-Asgorath, and the human belief of her as the “nemesis of gods” had shaped her into her current form and alignment. This does have a basis because the creation myth in the “Book of the World” is also a human one.
Also I have question. Do you think if all or most of good and neutral dragons would die would the belief of the evil dragon be enough to turn Io evil or at least more evil( like thrue neutral with evil tendencies)? Or more lawful if there were much more lawful dragons?

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Re: Draconic pantheon

I assume Io would die or disappear when all his followers vanished, leaving room for an evil dragon deity to take his place.

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Re: Draconic pantheon

No i didn't mean that all his followers die, only the that there are a lot of (something like 70% of all dragonkind) of lawfull/evil/good/chaotic dragons beliving in Io in this hypothetical situation. Each alignment of dragon have their own idea of him (gold ones see him as lawfull good, red as chaotic evil). Wouldn't that belief in this sitation be strong enough to shape his own alignment. I don't think Io would die as long as there are any dragons(he is after all the god of dragonkind, isn't he?).

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Re: Draconic pantheon

[Casts resurrection]Hmmm... my first thread seemed to be dead for some while now.
I analised the Myths abaut Tiamat and Bahamut outside the 1 ed Draconomicon, and noticed some interesting facts. For a sample Bahamut and Tiamat were created intention of becoming complements and mates, very much like Apsu and Tiamat from Enuma Elish. Interesingly Bahamut the water/darkness beneath him in the Arabian myth has some similarities to the sumerian concept of Abzu (on which the Babylonian Apsu is based). It even seems that in Pathfinder they also noticed this similarities, because their version of Apsu is extremely similar to Bahamut. So what do you think eves if my first theory is somewhat wrong, maybe there still is some connection between those Draconic and Babylonian/Sumerian pantheon?

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Re: Draconic pantheon

Draconic Pantheon is one of the oldest, if not THE oldest.
Babylonian Pantheon is one of the oldest human pantheons, and if you say they are just the continuation of Sumerians, they can be the oldest human panthon.
It is logical that these two pantheons have relations that predate other pantheons. Babylonian and Sumerian pantheons are usually early civilization pantheons. When their believers start establishing cities, rest of the world is pretty much wilderness. Elves and dwarves are on their own lands and lands in between are occupied by savages, monsters and powerful dragon tyrants. Protecting their cities from these evil dragons, and co-existing peacefully with good dragons, is probably a major issue. However, babylonian pantheon may prefer to take the issue to a draconic deity like Bahamut, (because trying to deal with all evil dragons by themselves can cause a face off with the entire draconic pantheon), and ask him to help out in keeping Tiamat at bay. Bahamut's code of honor demands that he protect the weak from Tiamat's minions, and he helps out the Babylonians. In time, Babylonian believers do not forget this service and start revering him in one of his aspects, and call him Ap-Su. So, in a long while (like a few millenia), both Tiamat and Bahamut becomes honorary members of the Babylonian Pantheon.
Sumerians have Marduk, who is also another anti-Takhisis power. I do not know of any further resemblances with Bahamut.

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Re: Draconic pantheon

Marduk's realm in Arcadia is notable for not allowing dragons - even good dragons - anywhere near it. I don't think he could be the same as Bahamut, who has a completely separate realm in Celestia.

I think what happened was that after Marduk was banished from Faerun, he gave Bahamut permission to use his name and aspect in the Realms. On other worlds, they remain separate entities.

Tiamat, however, is clearly the same entity in both the D&D Babylonian/Untheric pantheon and in the draconic pantheon. I would tend to assume everything the Babylonians believe is correct: that she once had a consort called Apsu, with whom she gave birth to the Babylonian pantheon, and she warred against the Babylonian pantheon until she was defeated by Marduk (but not torn in half, as the Babylonians in our world believed). But I'd say that's kind of a side project for her, and her role in the draconic pantheon as the daughter of Io and brother of Bahamut is something she does when she's not manifesting before her Babylonian/Untheric worshipers. Trying to combine the two pantheons into one gives me a headache.

I have theorized in the past that Marduk did cut Tiamat in half, and half of her became the dragon goddess and the other half became the Krynnish goddess Takhisis.

Note that 4th edition claims that Asgorath wasn't actually a draconic deity at all, but a primordial responsible for throwing an ice moon (possibly one of the Tears of Selune, though they weren't supposed to exist yet) into the world, creating the Sea of Fallen Stars and a cataclysm that ended the Time of Thunder. Because dragons began appearing shortly after this event (remembered as the Tearfall), later peoples - including the dragons themselves - believed that Asgorath had created them.

This actually fits fairly well with the myth in the 2nd edition Draconomicon, which said that Asgorath shattered a Crystal Sun.

It's not clear what role this leaves Io in the Realms. Cult of the Dragon said that Asgorath was another name for Io, so it's possible that Io actually received the worship and granted the spells that the dragons of Toril mistakenly credited Asgorath for. Asgorath was banished to the parallel world of Aebir immediately after the Tearfall, so presumedly she had nothing to do with Toril after that.

I think Pathfinder's use of the name Apsu as their Bahamut-equivalent is very tidy, though it requires us to radically reinterpret Babylonian myth. They can do that on Golarion since no one worships the Babylonian pantheon there anyway, though on worlds where the entire Babylonian pantheon is worshiped, it becomes more complicated to figure out how Bahamut fits into a mythos where Ea is said to have killed him.

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Re: Draconic pantheon

Killing a deity may just mean banishing his belief and his church from the crystal spheres where the Babylonians are worshipped. In ages past, Marduk and his followers led a campaign against Tiamat. Other Draconic deities, such as Bahamut, interfered or were wiped out along with Tiamat as a result of the conjuncture. For the babylonians on that crystal sphere, Bahamut & Tiamat are effectively dead. However, since they are worhipped multiversally by dragons, just the babylonians aren't enough to send them floating to Astral.

I kind of like to imagine that every respectable pantheon has total control over at least a few crystal spheres, making these their primary source of power. But ofcourse such spheres are the minority, majority being "crystal spheres of conflict", a place where most major pantheons have influence, along with a number of "upstarts" and some representatives of other respectable pantheons. In the former kind of speheres, where several other pantheons were wiped out, mythologies are much more radical, to the point of schovenism. In the latter kind, these pantheons still have to co-exist so they tone down the extreme parts of their myths (such as Marduk not killing a dragon deity, but a protecting its subjects from dragons).

Similarities between Nordic and Celtic and Orcish, elvish, dwarven pantheons are also easy to find. I think the reasons are te same.

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Re: Draconic pantheon

Evil wrote:
Bahamut's code of honor demands that he protect the weak from Tiamat's minions, and he helps out the Babylonians. In time, Babylonian believers do not forget this service and start revering him in one of his aspects, and call him Ap-Su. So, in a long while (like a few millenia), both Tiamat and Bahamut becomes honorary members of the Babylonian Pantheon..
Yeah, this is also something I thought about for some time. It’s wonderful I’m not alone witch my crazy ideas. Thanks Evil !
ripvanwormer wrote:
I have theorized in the past that Marduk did cut Tiamat in half, and half of her became the dragon goddess and the other half became the Krynnish goddess Takhisis.
That was great article. I remember when I found it 3 or 4 years ago. Rip did you also proposed in it that Ao and Apsu are the same, because I may not remember it quite good.
ripvanwormer wrote:
Marduk's realm in Arcadia is notable for not allowing dragons - even good dragons - anywhere near it. I don't think he could be the same as Bahamut, who has a completely separate realm in Celestia.

I think what happened was that after Marduk was banished from Faerun, he gave Bahamut permission to use his name and aspect in the Realms. On other worlds, they remain separate entities.


Hmm, this always was a bit strange to me, why Marduk a god who has a dragon as his holy animal and one of symbols in Babylonian mythology, is a dragon hater in d&d. Even stranger in the book of Daniel The god Bel(Almost certainly Marduk) is presented as a real dragon. Does this mean that he was he replaced in some moment by Bahamut in our world(well, rather the d&d/planescape version of our world) like in Faerun? Also there was also a Sumerian god called Tishpak, who was absorbed by Marduk and from who Marduk “borrowed” the dragon as a symbol and holy animal. Maybe it was the other way around and Tishpak(Bahamut?) absorbed/subsumed/replaced Marduk? What do you think?

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Re: Draconic pantheon

Quote:
. Rip did you also proposed in it that Ao and Apsu are the same,

I don't think so. I normally keep overdeities separate from deities.

Quote:
Even stranger in the book of Daniel The god Bel(Almost certainly Marduk) is presented as a real dragon.

Is that supposed to be Bel? I thought it was just a dragon the Babylonians happened to worship.

22 Therefore the king slew them, and delivered Bel into Daniel's power, who destroyed him and his temple.

23 And in that same place there was a great dragon, which they of Babylon worshiped.

These seem like separate things. Daniel destroyed the idol of Bel, and there happened to be a dragon in the same place that had a temple of its own. It's been commented on that the way Daniel slew the dragon (stuffing its mouth full of pitch, fat, and hair until it exploded) is similar to the way that Marduk slew Tiamat in myth (blowing wind into her mouth until she exploded). Maybe Daniel is more like Marduk in that story than the dragon is.

Quote:
Does this mean that he was he replaced in some moment by Bahamut in our world(well, rather the d&d/planescape version of our world) like in Faerun?

I would say no; Planescape's Marduk seems to still be separate.

Quote:
Also there was also a Sumerian god called Tishpak, who was absorbed by Marduk and from who Marduk “borrowed” the dragon as a symbol and holy animal. Maybe it was the other way around and Tishpak(Bahamut?) absorbed/subsumed/replaced Marduk?

Uh, maybe! Tishpak is supposed to be the same as Teshub, who seems pretty much the same as Marduk from his description, and also was known as a dragon-slayer. My guess is that Tishpak had a dragon in his symbol because he was known for killing dragons, rather than because he was supposed to be a dragon.

I think that D&D made Marduk opposed to dragons because he's best known for killing one, and because it adds a little conflict to playing in Arcadia if the sternly lawful neutral Marduk doesn't play nice even with good dragons who might be the PCs' allies or dragonblooded PCs.

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