I raise the question because several quotes from various 3rd and 3.5 Edition D&D sources suggest that Outsiders cannot chage their alignment (the spell Atonement, for instance, allows a creature or character to choose to change its allignment to match that of the caster... but NOT if the creature is an Outsider!!!) Would a Helm of Opposite Alignment work on an Outsider (say, if put on a Balor or Pit Fiend?) And yet certain other statement in D&D books imply that changing alignment might be possible (Savage Species mentions the prospect of Good-aligned former Fiends, for instance...) HELP!!!
Do Outsiders have free will...?
Wed, 2007-08-01 15:28
#1
Do Outsiders have free will...?
Wed, 2007-08-01 22:20
#3
Do Outsiders have free will...?
I raise the question because several quotes from various 3rd and 3.5 Edition D&D sources suggest that Outsiders cannot chage their alignment
Even if we only look at 3.x material, the very existance of fallen celestials (such as Baalzebul or Zalatian XXIII), and risen fiends (such as Felthis ap Jerran) show otherwise. While they're physical embodiments of their alignments, they can change their alignment, though this sort of shift is incredibly rare, and usually is an incredibly complex event with major ramifications for their metaphysical being (and appearance, and powers, etc).
Tue, 2007-08-14 05:38
#4
Do Outsiders have free will...?
in my games, any outsider who ventured out of their plane for too long becomes increasingly susceptible to an alignment change... what with the exposure and all...
Which reminds me of something:
Officially, if a demon/devil/yugoloth stays in Elysium too long, the poor bugger would turn nice, wouldn't it?
Tue, 2007-08-14 16:36
#5
Do Outsiders have free will...?
With demon's there's a vague-ish precedent in the deva spark. Devils, not so certain adn as for yugoloths *snicker* for that one I suggest you read Shemmy's first story hour to find out what happens with yugoloths on Elysium.
Tue, 2007-08-14 21:03
#6
Do Outsiders have free will...?
Well, as Bible says Lucifer was formerly an angel, but he chooses with his actions to go to the dark side.
So outsiders for me can choose their fate (alignment) at their maturity but once choose they can not change it, unless by a strong event, such as a god intervention, a strong roleplaying situation (whatever that means) or so many time in a outer plane contrary as their own alignment.
Thu, 2007-08-16 01:46
#7
Do Outsiders have free will...?
I think that fact that some outsiders have changed their aligments is enough proof of their free will.
After all fact that you can overcome your basic instincts and planar energies you are made of is enough to me.
It is intresting that change they aligment but not their outsider subtype when shift happens.
Here is one other proof: In "Well of Worlds" there is adventure where sucubbus and cornugon fell in true love, and if that is not free will I dont know what it is.
Thu, 2007-08-16 05:02
#8
Do Outsiders have free will...?
Deva Spark is all about a rising Bebilith (albeit, with special circumstances).
Tue, 2007-08-21 09:36
#9
Do Outsiders have free will...?
I'm siding with the "they have free will" opinion. They are individuals, and this lets them, for example, free to ally or follow whatever power/deity/belief they fell most attracted to, otherwise i think there won't be as many sides to choose if they were all with one will...
Tue, 2007-08-21 10:09
#10
Do Outsiders have free will...?
Delicious Copypasta
A word about the fiends (and celestial and so forth): Yep, they're living in a very mean society, yet if the term exemplar bears any meaning at all their "nature" is essentially that of their respective plane - and it may take a devastating personal experience or a strange mood of the multiverse to make it change. That's what makes it such a fatally mistake to deal with fiends.
I mean, a great deal of them are raised/born/whatever from mortals of the respective alignment. Maybe the memory dies, but the alignment remain as some sort of "basic instinct". Tale of the scorpion, etc.
Tue, 2007-08-21 21:57
#11
Do Outsiders have free will...?
This is an interesting question that's been running through my own mind for awhile. As such, I've been converting it into a comic storyline (largely involving the demon characters I recently introduced)
Basically, my thinking revolves around a "pure" state from which the Planar beings sprung, only to be "corrupted" by interactions with free-willed mortals. This is actually a big theme of mine... I just haven't gotten into the meat of it yet (and I don't want to spoil future plot-twists!)
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Tue, 2007-08-21 23:28
#12
Do Outsiders have free will...?
First, we've got to break up the term Outsider a bit, as there are several different kinds.
Petitioners have had their souls bound to their plane, so they really only have as much free will as the plane allows them. On good or chaotic planes like Arborea, they can pretty much do whatever they want, but on lawful and evil planes like Baator their options can be pretty limited indeed.
Of course, given time, the greatest petitioners become Exemplars -- living embodiments of their plane sent out to do their plane's bidding. Believe it or not, I've always seen Exemplars (including Modrons) as having total free will. The thing is though, their will is, by definition, going to mesh with that of their plane. That's why they're exemplars in the first place. If they're mindsets ever stop meshing with their planes they become 'rogue' or 'fallen' or 'risen' or whatever and cease to be exemplars anymore (which is why some of them, particularly Modrons, change form when they go rogue). The fact that they can abandon the ideals of their home plane at all indicates that they have free will, and the fact that many actually do so, indicates that whatever influence their planes hold on them, it is not so great that it can keep them from following their beliefs.
Other Outsiders that aren't explicitly tied to a plane, like Night Hags or Genies, don't have any ironclad rules to go on, but you can generally assume that they have full free will unless explicitly told otherwise.
First, you have to remember that things don't work the same, and aren't perceived the same in the planes as they are elsewhere. In some settings it is assumed that creatures, such as the Outsiders you mention, are unchanging extensions of their planes ... but if that were the case, then how could you have fallen angels?
Outsiders make choices, just like any other berk, though, perhaps, their choices have more direct impact upon their person.
As "champions" of their alignments, the Outsiders are, in a way, personifications of that ideal and as such are beyond the magical influences of mundane items such as helms or the casting of some upstart wizard. The Celestial and Infernal hosts must choose to turn their backs on what they are, in order to become something else ... and that is not an easy thing to do.