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Divine scrolls of trasmutation in Carceri

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Wed, 2008-09-10 19:13
#1
Felenthir Enthelion
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Divine scrolls of trasmutation in Carceri

Hi guys.

I'm playing an adventure in Carceri and we play in 3rd ed using all the Planescape laws of magic in the planes.

Me and my friends are trying to understand if a cleric scroll or magic item of the transmutation (alteration) school should work whithout being altered.

 At pages 15 and 16 of On Hallowed Ground there is a list of the spell alteration suffered by divine magic items. Alterations changes are not on the list (not even in Limbo, in the Beastland or in the Abyss description). 

Is this for you a mistake or a priest scroll of trasmutation can work correctly in Carcery / Limbo/ Abyss/ Besastland?

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Wed, 2008-09-10 19:35
#2
Idran
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Felenthir Enthelion

Felenthir Enthelion wrote:

Hi guys.

I'm playing an adventure in Carceri and we play in 3rd ed using all the Planescape laws of magic in the planes.

Me and my friends are trying to understand if a cleric scroll or magic item of the transmutation (alteration) school should work whithout being altered.

At pages 15 and 16 of On Hallowed Ground there is a list of the spell alteration suffered by divine magic items. Alterations changes are not on the list (not even in Limbo, in the Beastland or in the Abyss description). 

Is this for you a mistake or a priest scroll of trasmutation can work correctly in Carcery / Limbo/ Abyss/ Besastland?

It's almost definitely a mistake, I'd say.  Magical items that cast divine spells, including scrolls, suffer all the changes by school that wizard spells normally do according to every other Planescape source.  That was more than likely just an editting mistake or something like that in OHG.

Wed, 2008-09-10 21:38
(Reply to #2) #3
Felenthir Enthelion
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I see! It has to be like

I see! It has to be like this for sure. Thanks!Laughing out loud

You said "magic item that casts spells".  What about those items that do not cast spells (like a ring of protection +5,  for istance, or a cloak of charisma +6). Are they altered too? The planewalker handbook is all but not clear. 

Ah, and speaking of items... Is there a spell that make an item work correctly? Something like native item but not for a weapon/amor?

Like for istance if you have to use a dimensional sextant in Carceri. 

Normally you have to use a pool of blood from one friend to cast divinations, but with a divination item it shouldn't work...

Wed, 2008-09-10 22:05
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Idran
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It only applies to items

It only applies to items that cast actual spells or generate effects, as far as I know.  Passive items like a cloak of charisma +6 wouldn't be effected by the planar magic distortions.  I don't believe there's any spells to make items work correctly, and I think that's on purpose, since that would give reason for no one to ever bother with spells themselves.  You could say that spell keys can work for items as well as spells, though.

For that specific case, I don't see any reason why that shouldn't work for the item.  But if you don't want to bother with that, you could always overrule it and just let it work without that arbitrarily or invent some reason for it not needing that.  Rules in D&D are only important so long as they're fun for everyone involved, after all. Laughing out loud

Wed, 2008-09-10 22:15
#5
Jem
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Items with any numerical

Items with any numerical bonuses lose plusses between planes as weapons do: armor, weapons, a cloak of charisma, and so forth.  If your characters' standard equipment is forged in Sigil, it will only lose 1 point on any other Outer Plane.  Those with some other constant effect, like a ring of sustenance, do not lose any effectiveness gradually, but those that are based on a given spell will suffer the same alterations as those types of spells.  Spell keys and power keys do not restore the effects of such items.  (This is all on page 110 of the 2e Planewalker's Handbook.) 

Native item is explicitly described as working for any equipment that gradually loses bonuses, and only these.  Other items are out of luck.  However, a spell that restored such an item's effectiveness like native item would make a fine research project for a planewalking mage!  He would have quite an advantage of surprise over foes that don't expect his items to work, and after a few years of making use of this and getting a reputation for it, he could probably sell copies of the spell from his spellbook for a very profitable return on his investment.

By the way, your diviner can also use a pint of his own blood on Carceri.  Not pleasant, but better than the alternative. ;^) 

Wed, 2008-09-10 22:31
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Idran
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Jem wrote: Items with any

Jem wrote:

Items with any numerical bonuses lose plusses between planes as weapons do: armor, weapons, a cloak of charisma, and so forth.  If your characters' standard equipment is forged in Sigil, it will only lose 1 point on any other Outer Plane.  Those with some other constant effect, like a ring of sustenance, do not lose any effectiveness gradually, but those that are based on a given spell will suffer the same alterations as those types of spells.  Spell keys and power keys do not restore the effects of such items.  (This is all on page 110 of the 2e Planewalker's Handbook.)

Huh, so it is.  I always thought it was just weapons and armor.  I stand corrected!

Thu, 2008-09-11 07:13
(Reply to #5) #7
Felenthir Enthelion
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Thank you Idrian , you are

Thank you Idrian , you are right about the rules, they have to be a way to enjoy the game, not a restriction. Laughing out loud

And Thank you Jem too!

What you said is very interesting.

So, for istance, would a planar sextant (the one inthe Manual of the Planes) or a ring of jumping work in carceri?

It is not easy to determinate when a item with a costant effect is based or not on a single spell. It would be nice to have a list here on the site.Or a nice conversion of the native item spell, maybe with is greater and mass version.

Also, do you think that a well formulated wish or miracle could make all the magic items of a person (or even of a group) work just fine for one day (like they still are subjected to the alterations, but they do not loose plus and can be influenced by keys)? 

May I ask you where did you find the rule about divination i Carceri?

In the Liber Malevolentiae (pag10) is written that the key requires the sacrifice of a comrade. if there is really a way to avoid this it would be great.

Thu, 2008-09-11 07:25
(Reply to #7) #8
Idran
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Felenthir Enthelion

Felenthir Enthelion wrote:

So, for istance, would a planar sextant (the one inthe Manual of the Planes) or a ring of jumping work in carceri?

It is not easy to determinate when a item with a costant effect is based or not on a single spell. It would be nice to have a list here on the site.Or a nice conversion of the native item spell, maybe with is greater and mass version.

 Checking into the books, it looks like I was wrong on that too, it turns out.  According to the DM's Guide to the Planes from the boxed set (page 15), all magical items are effected by school except for artifacts, weapons, and armor.  So by the book, any magical item would suffer according to the restrictions by school on a given plane.

Thu, 2008-09-11 08:44
#9
Jem
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Something like a

Something like a dimensional sextant should work just fine, yes. Wish and miracle should certainly work to restore items, but they are extremely powerful magical effects to be throwing at this problem -- if it's a major bother, I really do encourage you to have the mage research a spell that just does particularly this.  Making it Level 4, like native item, would probably be reasonable.  A level 5 or 6 spell might create a small pocket in which all items functioned as if they were on a plane of the caster's choosing, provided he had some material for that plane.  (A member of the Fraternity of Order would probably have a leg up on designing such a spell, as they already like to know and catalog the laws that are in effect on various planes.)

Look on p. 10 of Liber Malevolentiae for the use of a pint of the caster's own blood rather than a companion's -- it's under "Spell Keys," further down than the alteration to the divination school listed above.

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