Diplomacy

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Almighty Watashi's picture
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Joined: 2004-11-22
Diplomacy

Because of the unique way planescape is played in dnd, i decided on removing two skills: Gather information and diplomacy

There wasn't much problem with gather info, it's just few more ideas i need to give players information if they don't find it

But we still argue about diplomacy. I don't like the skill because the player can say something wrong or useless or just explain in three words what they want to accomplish and roll diplomacy

Their argument is that removing diplomacy weakens the charisma attributes (and they're very right) and it's unfair to untalkative people who want to play very convincing characters (which i find a stupid thing to do, but they do have a point)

Then again, i like other charisma skills like bluff, handle animal or intimidate because those skills are not about what you say but how you say it. But my politics is that the listeners either like you and what you said or they don't. My NPC-s don't roll diplomacy against their PC-s so i don't see why it should be the other way around Laughing out loud

The biggest problem is that they have a lot more experience DM-ing then I do, but not in belief-based planescape setting, so i come looking for advice from the experienced planescape DM-s.

How do you handle diplomacy skills?

Also, what about gather information? How helpful is that to a human visitor in a town full of fiends or modrons?

Clueless's picture
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Webmonkey
Joined: 2008-06-30
Diplomacy

I don't run often but I have found diplomacy to be useful, not so much as a skill to determine success but as a buffer for player to character problems. The use of social skills isn't just a Planescape question after all. Eye-wink

I once had a girl in an alternity game, she wanted to play a linguist, xenobiologist diplomat sort of character. Knowing her and how extroverted she was, I went "Sure, sounds good - the group could use someone who's not going to shoot the aliens on sight." Cause I knew she could do it.

What I didn't account for was her *nerves*. New player, playing in a game with her boyfriend and wanting to impress him, she put a lot of pressure on herself to "do well" to the point where she'd mess up her interactions just because she was that scared of messing up!

Diplomacy saved our butts at one point, she had to do the negotiaions with the big bad godfather like alien on this one planet, and for the life of her couldn't do it, was honestly about to quit the game. I remembered she had diplomacy, calmed her down and had her roll. Where - thank goodness - she rolled a critical success. My words at the time, "Ok, your character knows how to do this - at this point, just take a breath, say what you're going to say, your character will cover for it if you mess up - I'll let you know if something's wrong, we'll rewind a little and go through it again. There is no way you can mess up at this point, ok?"

Calmed her down completely, and by the end of the conversation she was fully in character for the first time in the game and had managed to negotiate bonus pay. What I *didn't* tell her was that I didn't change a single bit how big and scaley reacted to her based on that roll.

Diplomacy rolls are a good way to reassure players who are panicked by the idea of needing to RP. It also gives you a chance to subtly teach them how to actually be diplomatic, by fixing things when they're wrong and rewinding to do over because 'your dice roll will save your butt here'. There are folks out there who really just don't know *how* to do those sort of scenes, but if shown how - they pick up on it really fast.

Clueless's picture
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Webmonkey
Joined: 2008-06-30
Diplomacy

On the other hand - I'd say leave gather info in. You can get plenty of ways ahead even if you are a human in a fiendish area. It's called bribery. Eye-wink Ditto for modrons, you can work through it slowly if you know the right forms to fill out and requests to make. The way I figure it, gather info is a combination of knowing who to bribe, how to bribe them, with what... be that buying a lady drinks and chatting her up, or offering straight up jink.

Admittedly the game I'm in our characters have a habit of *remembering* people so we tend to go back to the people we've dealt with before, even if it was just some nameless berk whose debts got paid off on a whim.

Almighty Watashi's picture
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Joined: 2004-11-22
Diplomacy

I still don't know about the gather information. Do they really need to spend skill points on a "walk into the bar and ask the bartender" skill?

As for diplomacy, i see how the good roll would help with it, but i still think we're not a large group nor are we very quiet people and new players almost never happen, but i'll think about this, thanks Smiling

Oh yes, another question. In a dwarven village, who does the talking? The dwarven fighter without diplomacy or an elven bard who made a big diplomacy roll?

ceratus's picture
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Joined: 2004-05-11
Diplomacy

I don't play in rl very often. Most of my gaming experience is linked to irc and the like. DM-ing i always disable the diplomacy skill, and I don't really think that makes the charisma skill useless. It gives the Dm an idea of just how eloquent the player can be. If someone's playing a barbarian with a charisma score of 5, and the player starts roleplaying that chacter like he was a diplomat, I'll warn that player (or just hurt him later in the game, depending on what sort of mood I'm in :twisted: ) that his/her character wouldn't be able to do something like that. I also eliminate the gather information skill, and let the characters try to find the best way to aquire info.

As for playing in rl, the diplomacy skill comes in handy when a player has a speech impediment. Same goes for bluff, intimidate and the like (t'was just rolling those skills that saved me a lot of humiliation many a time Laughing out loud ). Other than that, I don't see a very good reason to keep the skill.

The dwarven fighter...the elf would just get his head split open Cool

Clueless's picture
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Webmonkey
Joined: 2008-06-30
Diplomacy

Myself I'd say the elf could still do it, but the party would be generally smarter to let the dwarf do it. The chances of him pulling it off are better - aka, the statistics involved on the dice roll are better.

Admittedly Clueless is the point of info gathering and diplomacy for the party, so I do a lot of this stuff without rolls. (Check the link to Shemmy's storyhour for what I mean.)

Almighty Watashi's picture
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Joined: 2004-11-22
Diplomacy

That is all correct. There are also charisma limitations depending on the plane you visit (from the manual of the planes) so the rules are, in theory, nicely established.

But since we usually start at minimum of level 4 (none of us likes dying, at least not permanently), that doesn't help much since the dwarven fighter would still have -1 to diplomacy and an elven bard would have like +472 and with that -2 for wrong plane and about -4 for the hostile species still makes him the right choice for a diplomat

I don't mind people being too good as diplomats (last time i let one player roll intimidate against a small army of drow Laughing out loud), but i'm afraid of losing the point of all those racial relations and hatereds :roll:

(btw. dwarf and elf are just a fictious example. Any similarity with actual players is purely coincidental)

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