differentiating the prisons

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sciborg2's picture
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differentiating the prisons

so there are a lot of planar prisons in the GW - Ooze (the place of chambered madness), Carceri, Pandemonium's deepest layer Agathion, the second layer of Elysium (Berelin), and the Demi-Plane of Imprisonment.

Oh, and iirc there's a prison on the astral.

So, why so many prisons? How can we go about making the reasoning for each prison unique?

And why are two chaotic lower planes used for imprisonment?

At first pass the obvious would be that Elysium can only be used by celestials, Ooze doesn't have any magical essence it's just a place of convenient banishment, and Agathion is where creatures are stored that I believe might prove useful later.

Carceri is the only place that feeds on the idea of imprisonment. Its essence is confinement. Why is it chaotically tinged? Because its the place of traitors, and this energy of betrayal and grudges prevents the inmates from working together.

Also, this chaotic essence is what allows beings to be trapped that the "rules" shouldn't allow, such as the primordial Titans.

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differentiating the prisons

This is a great topic, I myself have wondered this too. In the multiverse there are so many different planes and places that sometimes they look alike. For each of them to be a different adventure place and not "just another planar prison" they must have a differ in use or purpose.

Vacuum is also used as an imprisonment plane, or a place where people sometimes dump dangerous stuff. Not because its hard to enter or escape but because nobody bothers to even go there. I got this fro 3.5ed work, mostly hordes of abyss. Ohh, and also there's a layer of abyss where powerful demons are kept buried in tar pits. They can still be contacted by psionics or magic though(also from that book).

Demiplane of Imprisonment is a nasty place, probably the hardest prison to escape on the planes, but it is mostly used by primers as the outer planes have no direct connection to ethereal. I can imagine DoI mostly being used for enemies that may reincarnate if killed, but are also too dangerous to be kept sealed away in the world. Demon lords or elemental creatures come to mind as possible prisoners.

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differentiating the prisons

'sciborg2' wrote:
Oh, and iirc there's a prison on the astral.

Pitiless.

Pitiless = "blast from the past" for DMs. You can stash any old NPC from like, 8,000 years ago in here if you want. Someone also might end up in Pitiless if they have a powerful enemy who, for whatever reason, doesn't actually want to kill them. Killing an uber-good paladin, for example, would only send his spirit to a happy Upper Plane, but if you send him to Pitiless, he'll be uncomfortable for a very long time.

The 'theme' of Pitiless is timelessness/decay. Anything in the Astral Plane is immune to the natural processes of time, but the Sinkers run the place.

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differentiating the prisons

Lets not forget also: Demiplane of Dread (aka Ravenloft) which is a prison for especially evil goth folk. And Wells of Darkness: layer of Abyss where are imprisoned fallen Abyssal Lords.

It seems to me that prison for Abyssal Lords is located in Abyss so that rival Lords have "inmates" under constant sureveilance.

Why is so much prisons in multiverse? Just think about it. Multiverse is full of powerfull "things" that not even gods can destroy for good (or they are just too lazy). So they use planar prisons. But putting so much powerfull prisoners in one place is invitation for disaster (Ghostbusters 1, anyone). So "toxic waste" of the planes must be distributed and contained on warious remote hard to reach places of planes (prety much like our own toxic waste).
But as with all toxic waste such solutions are only temporary and future generations (of adventurers) will have problems with it. Puzzled

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sciborg2's picture
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differentiating the prisons

i think that ooze is where mages simply send weaker enemies to be cruel or perhaps where outer planars can hide prisoners from exemplars who might interfere. I had Ygorl stash Wartle there for example.

Carceri actually makes sense as chaotic as its a prison without justice and really without supervision. There are no cells, in some sense one's drive for individuality is one's shackles.

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differentiating the prisons

There was a terrific article on the wizards boards not that long ago on how Acheron was a prison plane used by the modrons to imprison the obyriths.

It truly terrifies players when a hand suddenly reaches out and grabs them through solid metal.

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differentiating the prisons

We're also forgetting those very personal prisons, The Mazes.

Jareddm, my PCs may be stepping into Archeron for the first time ever next session, nice idea. Bwa hahha!!

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I'd say that in the Planes,

I'd say that in the Planes, a prison's inhabitants define it most of all. There are so many bizarre creatures with (to use the technical term) 'wierd-ass powers' out there that each venue has to specialise to a limited extent, which will have a knock-on effect to the look and feel of the place when PCs visit. Some of this will be physical (the guards don't both to close up human-sized holes in the wall for the prison where they keep the Tarasque between rampages, say), sometimes magical (to counter specific powers, or cultural (Carceri is "the prison of the gods" used for titans and the like, while Hades realm could be said to be a tortuous "prison" afterlife for Greeks).

Extending that principle, Astral prisons are excellent for big dumb warrior types, while the plane of vacuum seems to suit elementals (no raw materials to work with), etc... Who built, why, and who's 'doing porridge' inside seem to be the defining factors.

Just my two copper pieces

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jareddm wrote:There was a

jareddm wrote:
There was a terrific article on the wizards boards not that long ago on how Acheron was a prison plane used by the modrons to imprison the obyriths. It truly terrifies players when a hand suddenly reaches out and grabs them through solid metal.

Do you have a link for that? 

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jareddm wrote:There was a

jareddm wrote:
There was a terrific article on the wizards boards not that long ago on how Acheron was a prison plane used by the modrons to imprison the obyriths. It truly terrifies players when a hand suddenly reaches out and grabs them through solid metal.

That would be cool picture: "Modrons that lead chained obyriths to their cube prisons", realy epic stuff. Smiling

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Calmar wrote: jareddm

Calmar wrote:

jareddm wrote:
There was a terrific article on the wizards boards not that long ago on how Acheron was a prison plane used by the modrons to imprison the obyriths. It truly terrifies players when a hand suddenly reaches out and grabs them through solid metal.

Do you have a link for that?

That I do good sir.

http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-1020533.html 

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Thank you for the

Thank you for the link.

Sadly it does not work for me and directs me to an empty page. Sad

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odd...works just fine for

odd...works just fine for me.  Takes me right to the wizards archives.

 

Anyone else having this problem? 

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Works for me too - but given

Works for me too - but given the relative 'fail' of Gleemax to keep a stable server up and going I wouldn't be surprised if it flaked out the first time you tried.

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Now it works for me, too.

Now it works for me, too.

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Ooh... that adventure idea

Ooh... that adventure idea in the original author's post is awesome.  I've got an air genasi interested in the history of the Vaati... I might point my GM to that thread.

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"Keeps your ears turned this

"Keeps your ears turned this way, Bubber, I heard it best from a kiddie in Plague-Mort.  Little Girl, no bigger than one of me legs, she tells me: Everything after here is a prison.  Damned if she weren't correct too." - Kalo Brandmark, Tiefling Guardian factioneer

 The truth of the lower planes (not the fact) is that they are all prisons of one sort or another.  Certainly, in the case of pandemonium or Carceri, some planes wear it plainly.  Others are far more insidious.  In general, the chaotic planes represent the self imprisoned and beset by outside forces, while the lawful planes represent the self buried by the collective.

Pandemonium's prison status is sometimes entirely obvious: Agathion is the place where great beings hide forever those that could destroy the multiverse.  For the most part, though, people imprison themselves in Pandemonium, attempting to escape all others.  It would be the perfect place to get away, too, what with it being dark, desolate, cramped, little more than a series of holes burrowing through the infinite earth.  Perfect, that is, if not for the howling winds, cursed winds that carry with them the voices of everyone the subject has ever wronged, everything they've lost.  The madness of the plane isn't created by the wind, it's created by the individual until they are imprisoned within their own skull, unable to make anyone else understand the curse they suffer from.

The Abyss's prison is one of desire:  if one is capable, the plane can give any being anything they've ever wanted.  But it's never perfect.  And even when that objective is met, the beings look to further conquests.  All Abyssals are forever imprisoned as they will never learn that every victory will feel hollow. Ultimately, satisfaction is an impossibility.  

Carceri is another obvious prison: between the Ghereleths,  the Titans, and the other overthrown progenitors of the planes, Carceri is full of those who have been conquered and imprisoned.   Carceri's prison status is one of beings who have been punished for horrible actions.  Release is an impossiblity, too, since the inhabitants commit betrayals and crimes that only prolong their stay.  The only means of leaving is true repentance... but that has yet to happen.

The Gray Wastes imprison the being within itself, a sensory deprivation of the grandest scale.  On Oinos, the senses are assaulted by the war and disease: hearing is corrupted by the moans of the stricken and the clash of the battles; the visuals of dead and dying are everywhere, with atrocities committed beyond comprehension; olfactory fatigue sets in after experiencing the ever present scent of charred flesh, dead bodies, and offal; even taste  is assaulted, as what is smelt is often experienced by the tongue.  Niflheim's winter numbs the body, but beyond that emotions slowly drain out in this climate.  No longer does one feel the heat of rage, instead they are left with cold clarity and cold blades, because numb hands don't feel the heat of blood.  Finally, Pluton, the realm of Hades is where one loses faith.  In a realm where one can directly experience the result of hubris, the mortals sentenced to relentless torture become pitiable, and eventually one cannot look upon the other gods without seeing the crimes they commit upon those much weaker than them.  No longer can a body experience the soaring of belief after a stay in Pluton.

 Contrary to popular belief, Gehenna is one of the loneliest planes.  In a plane where willpower is the metric of power, there are only two beings:  I, and the others.  The solo being subjugates those beneath him by bending them to his will, perhaps through threats or intimidation, perhaps by proving himself capable of committing acts for no reason other than to prove a point.  The subjugated beings are imprisoned by will, the one who pulls the strings is imprisoned by his own will, never able to see others as peers or equals: in Gehenna, they are all potential subjects.

Baator is also a prison where the individual is subjugated, but not by individuals: instead by the Devils themselves, the Baatezu.  This is the imprisonment of the self by the party.  Rah rah rah!  Eventually one won't even realized they are in prison, until they mess up.  Then, like all Infernal bargains, one realizes they mired themselves in a situation they can't even comprehend.

Finally, Acheron: the plane where warriors go to lose joy in battle.  Acheron is all about post-traumatic stress warriors, those who keep the battle raging long after it is over.  Look at the Rakshasa, attempting to assert themselves against the Vedics despite the knowledge that the war was won a very long time ago, and that the Rakshasa are now little more than flies.  And yet, the war has gone on for so long, it's now all that they know.  

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Agathion is fundamentally a

Agathion is fundamentally a solitary prison for artifacts or immortals. People there are trapped with their own thoughts slowly driving them insane.

 Other parts of Pandemonium are often used for banishment, which is why there is a sect known as the Banished there - obviously, for those without planeshifting powers. It's a desolate plane where victims are driven mad enough to be less of a threat; they're not prevented from cooperating, but the environment is harsh enough that they mostly are able to only endure. Still, the Banished in Pandemonium are more exiles than prisoners; they are those who have been cast out to wander in the wilderness, not those left to rot in a jail cell. The distinction is important. It's not that they're trapped where they are so much as they can't go back to where they want to be. They're Odysseus, the Wandering Jew, the ghuls of the desert. 

Carceri is a group prison, a neverending prison riot where those jailed create their own society where the strong and clever rise to the top. In Carceri, hell is other people. Other prisoners, their schemes and betrayals, are the biggest part of the punishment. Carceri is not a plane of solitary confinement like Agathion is, nor is it a place of mere exile like the rest of Pandemonium. It's a prison colony that's revolted against its guards, where guards and prisoners are equally imprisoned, where chaos reigns and there's no escape for anyone.  

The Paraelemental Plane of Ooze is just pure sadism without any greater symbolism. Prisoners fossilize into mineral cysts where they can be preserved, still able to think, indefinitely. It's not a place to put gods or artifacts, but it's a nasty way to get rid of your enemies. It's also Sigil's garbage dump; all the waste and filth in Sigil's sewers end up here, where the inhabitants of the paraplane scavenge for lost valuables and hunt albino crocodiles and rats for foods. The dump of the City of Doors still has more magic and mysteries in it than most regular cities.

Ravenloft is a mysterious engine that collects evil, possibly for the greater good, or possibly for evil intent. It's a mystery, and somewhat of a wild card. You can't deliberately imprison someone there unless you're one of the Dark Powers.

The Demiplane of Imprisonment is Tharizdun's prison. Tharizdun apparently couldn't be trusted not to escape from Carceri - or his presence would have made Carceri too corrupt for the multiverse to withstand. As portrayed by Shemmy in Dragon Magazine, it's the crystalline prison from Hellboy.

Belieren is a sacrifice, a deliberate corruption of Good for the sake of the greater Good. It's Tyr giving his hand to Fenris Wolf; an infinite limb of the plane of greatest Good given as a hostage. Tharizdun would have been too much, but the Mother of Hydras fits nicely - and perhaps more.

Baator is sometimes portrayed as Asmodeus's prison, and perhaps the prison of the Elder Baatorians before then. 

In the end, entities make prisons where it's convenient to do so. Dumping them all in one place seems like a bad idea.  

 

 

 

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ripvanwormer

ripvanwormer wrote:

Belieren is a sacrifice, a deliberate corruption of Good for the sake of the greater Good. It's Tyr giving his hand to Fenris Wolf; an infinite limb of the plane of greatest Good given as a hostage. Tharizdun would have been too much, but the Mother of Hydras fits nicely - and perhaps more.

 

 

I always thought that Belieren's staus as a prison for evil critters was a little odd. After all, if there is a horribly evil sentience within Belieren, what would prevent it from slipping out of Elysium and joining the lower planes?

 IIRC, the layer contains some of the primal evil creatures - the first Medusa, first Hydra, etc. This is in addition to the "unnamed evil entity". Again, why should there be an "evil" plane in the layer that is devoted to the highest good? Consider the power of the Gray Waste, which saps emotion even from the Powers themselves. Elysium should be similarly powerful.

Here's my take on Belieren: There are such creatures which exist. However, rather than being evil, they have turned good. However, they know that the effect of the Gray Waste will fade over time if a creature leaves. They are worried that the same may apply to Belieren's effects. So as newly good creatures, they have set themselves into a state of exile until such time as they can leave the layer and be certain they won't slide back into evil.

 The unnamed evil fiendish lord/evil monster may be a redeemed unique Yugoloth or other fiendish lord. He(?) knows that if his redemption is discovered, the forces of evil would stop at nothing to destroy him, causing untold damage to the upper planes. Potentially the forces of the Abyss and Baator might see the possibility of a Lord converting to good as a huge danger, and might pause the Bloodwar to destroy the former Lord.

Thoughts? 

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The layer is good because

The layer is good because it is good to keep such things imprisoned.  The difference between Belierin and Carceri is that the evil creatures aren't interwoven with the nature of the plane.  Belierin that aspect of Good which prevents evil.

In Carceri, the prison is internal as well as external -- it becomes part of you, binding you to the plane.  It's probably more secure than Belierin, for prisoners weak enough to fall prey to that.  But it's evil because it changes you.  All the prisoners in Carceri that are stuck there are "institution men": prisoners that stay there because, deep down, this is home now, they have a life here, and they operate here.  If you want to get out of Carceri, you can't institutionalize.   Pandemonium is similar -- it holds creatures that in a fundamental sense are crazy, and the madness forms part of their chains.  The instant they were less insane, they'd be less dangerous, and they could probably get out.

Belierin doesn't imprison that way.  Its prisoners are stone cold sane, and they refuse to meekly accept their imprisonment.  Belierin is imprisonment imposed through strength.  Ironically, if the prisoners there could accept their imprisonment, accepting the moral authority of their jailors, they be on the road to redemption and possible release -- exactly the philosophical opposite of the imprisonments in the Lower Planes.

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I'd add that Elysium is

I'd add that Elysium is intended to be just a little creepy with tinges of "good gone too far." Despite what Jem said, the plane does change people, it makes them a little more charitable, a little more good, and it makes them never want to leave. Elysium isn't all sunshine and kittens. It tests you against evil to see how you fare, saps your desire to leave, and eventually subverts your will (and mortality) and turns you into a petitioner. Sure it grants eternal bliss, but at the expense of free will and individuality, which, frankly, kind of sucks. Add to that the fact that Guardinals are by far the creepiest looking Celestials, and a secretive prison plane doesn't seem too out of place anymore.

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All great posts - thanks

All great posts - thanks for all your thoughts everyone!

 Rip, love your take on Belieren as equivalent to Tyr's hand. Black Dagger, I like your idea that the evils within the layer were actually redeemed long ago. I wouldn't do this for every evil, but I love your take because the layer should, as a prison, emphasize reform over incarceration. I never thought of it like that and glad you did.

Bootchie, love your descriptions of how all the lower planes are prisons.

Duck, I also like your take on the "evils" of Elysium.

All great stuff it will take me awhile to digest and post some thoughts. God, this is why I love PS - for the people it attracts.

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