"Die, Vecna, Die!" canonical in 4E Draconomicon II

Die, Vecna, Die... I've never actually read this adventure, but I heard about the party going to Sigil in it, and... what the Lady says/does when they get there.

>.<

That's really all I can say about it, is >.< .

Vecna's actually been a deity since 1990, when the adventure Vecna Lives! was published. He was statted as a demigod there, in full 2nd edition format. He remained a demigod throughout his appearances in the Ravenloft setting (including Domains of Dread and Vecna Reborn, and at the beginning of Die, Vecna, Die!).

However, the aftermath of the Die, Vecna, Die! adventure had him promoted to the status of lesser deity, where he remained throughout 3rd edition and in 4th edition as well.

The issue that AnimeFan is bringing up, however, is one of continuity. Clearly, 4th edition "core" doesn't share a continuity with 1st, 2nd, or 3rd edition "core." The world is different, the planes are different, many assumptions about races are different: for example, halflings are taller, and half-orcs aren't assumed to be the children of orcs and humans anymore! There are many other examples. For example, in 3rd edition's Tome of Magic, the demilich Acererak was said to be a former apprentice of Vecna. We know from his 1st and 2nd edition appearances, moreover, that he's a native of Oerth. In 4th edition's Revenge of the Giants, Acererak was a living human only 700 years ago (a period where Vecna was a mere insubstantial shade banished to the lower planes thanks to Kas's attack, no longer incarnate on the Prime and not yet a demigod), living in the nation of Bael Turath (which was part of the 4e core world, a world with among other defining characteristics only a single moon, rather than Oerth). Further, Acererak, as of 3rd edition's Tome of Magic, was banished from the multiverse in the wake of his defeat in Return to the Tomb of Horrors, left a mere vestige, while in 4th edition's Open Grave he's very much present and active in all his demilichy glory, the events of Return to the Tomb of Horrors unmentioned. Vecna's nemesis Kas, also left vestiged in his 3e Dragon Magazine appearance (subsequent to the supposedly now-canonical Die, Vecna, Die!), is also corporeal and no worse for the wear, his time as a vestige unmentioned.

There's plenty of other differences between 1st-3rd edition continuity and 4e continuity. In 4e, the god Nerull died eons ago, slain by his consort Nera, who would become known as the Raven Queen. As recently as 3rd edition's Libris Mortis he was very much alive, however, leaving one to conclude that either 4th edition core takes place eons after 3rd edition core (but how could it, if Acererak was a mortal only 700 years ago?) or the present core continuity is entirely separate.

That's not to say there's no continuity at all between editions. The events of the Faction War are very much evident in the 4th edition DMG II, for example, and Sigil itself seems unretconned except in very minor ways (Zadara's sword archon bodyguards have become maruts). And of course continuity is in full force in the various settings like Forgotten Realms and Eberron, and presumedly also in settings that have not yet been updated to 4th edition like Greyhawk, and perhaps even Planescape exists officially unretconned in some hypothetical 4th edition version of the classic setting that will never see print.

What AnimeFan is bringing to our attention, though, is that 4th edition's core book, Draconomicon II, includes references to Vecna's time in Sigil, indicating that at least that part of Vecna's biography has survived the translation from 2nd edition continuity to 4th edition continuity more or less unscathed. While it was indeed true that that adventure was in continuity in 3rd edition (it's mentioned in the "Core Beliefs: Vecna" article in Dragon Magazine), it was more in doubt that it was part of 4th edition core continuity, since everything's in doubt in the very different 4th edition core multiverse.

I'm more skeptical that the events of that adventure are a plausible explanation for the many differences between the 3rd and 4th edition core planes, let alone the many differences that have nothing to do with the planes. I'd be skeptical even if the changes were limited to things like the Inner Planes melting into the Elemental Chaos, the Outlands disappearing, and the gate-towns being scattered across the multiverse; Vecna mucking about in Sigil is simply a lame explanation for any cataclysmic planar changes, making far too much of a single villain and a single planar city, in my opinion. The scope of the 4th edition differences - the radical (less interesting and fun) differences in the afterlife and the destination of the soul, for example, consigning the majority of souls to some nebulous, unvisitable great unknown instead of the Outer Planes where they might have become a useful part of the game; the differences in the origin, alignment, and appearance of many creatures, the overemphasis on the gods-primordial war back to the beginning of time, shunting unrelated aberrations to the Far Realm, diluting the concept and whole point of that plane... well, even if you buy Die, Vecna, Die!'s contention that a single deity who loopholes his way into the City of Doors has the ability to turn the multiversal structure into his Play-Doh, the 4e changes are far in excess of the mere rearrangement that Die, Vecna, Die implies, necessitating a massive rewrite of the whole of history. And if history is rewritten, wouldn't the events of the module also be affected? If Vecna's own history and the nature of the world and planes in which he found himself was changed by his own meddling, what you have his a temporal loop with no beginning and end, either his own actions the cause of his ability to act, or his actions rewriting the timeline so that he's unable to act at all... which might mean that the planes didn't change after all. If all of history, from the war with the primordials to the history of Bael Turath to the present, was the result of Vecna changing history in Sigil, then does the multiverse change every time the loop runs its course? If Vecna changed things so that they'd always been the way they are now, as 4th edition core says they were, then the last time he entered Sigil they should have changed again (because we've established that that's what Vecna being in Sigil does), and as history flows back toward the present he'd change it yet another time, histories and continuities flickering and blurring together with no end until someone finally gets sick of it and keeps Vecna out of Sigil. Only then can history stabilize, presumedly in its original form. Of course, if history's back to the way it was before then Vecna must have gotten into Sigil after all, so maybe nothing, not the might of all the gods and overpowers, can ever prevent the multiverse from spiraling into an infinite loop of paradox. That is, if we believe that Vecna's entrance into Sigil rewrites history and it isn't that 4th edition core simply has a completely separate continuity from 3rd edition core whose existence has nothing to do with Vecna.

That is to say, Die, Vecna, Die! can't be canonical because nothing can remain canonical as long as Vecna keeps getting into Sigil, changing the canon every time he does so. In the 2nd edition continuity, Vecna's entrance created the 3rd edition continuity. In the 3rd edition continuity, Vecna's entrance created the 4th edition continuity. In the 4th edition continuity, which is presently in force, Vecna's continuity-changing powers must therefore have created the 5th edition continuity and so on, ad infinitum. Unless you've figured out what the ∞th edition multiverse looks like, figuring out exactly what changes Vecna could have made is hopeless.

To be clear, the 4th edition core staff isn't claiming that the 4th edition cosmology is different because of Vecna. That was AnimeFan's idea. And it's fine, I suppose, if all he wants to change is the cosmology rather than the continuity as well. I just thought the idea of an infinitely looping retcon was funny.

I'm not convinced of that; I think it's the same design staff across all D&D lines, although obviously some designers work on some products and some on others. I know Ed Greenwood isn't in charge of the Forgotten Realms; he sold the rights back in 1987 or so. He's just a freelancer, albeit one who gets a lot of opportunities to design for the world he created. Still, the current direction of the Forgotten Realms, with the Spellplague and all that, was the decision of the Wizards of the Coast R&D staff, not Ed Greenwood.

James Wyatt worked on all three of the first 4th edition core books, and he also co-wrote the 4th edition Eberron Campaign Guide. Again, Keith Baker is just a freelancer, not really "in charge" of the setting since WotC bought it from him.

I think the WotC R&D staff simply decided that campaign worlds should retain previous-edition continuity, but that core products didn't have to.

That said, some of the core assumptions that have changed (for example, aasimar are devas now, and eladrins are another name for high elves) have changed elements of Forgotten Realms and Eberron canon too. It's just that they're making an effort to retain what continuity they can in the campaign worlds, where in the core products this is less true.

What is this wash about dragons guarding the gates? Which gates precisely, because there were countless portals leading into Sigil in 2E and more appearing and vanishing all the time. It would be a near impossible task to watch all of these, and certainly ruin some of the sponteniety of the setting if ever gate had a dragon dozing beside it.

You can read that article, it's not like it's subscriber only content. And really it doesn't sound like that group is very large in scope. They're almost described as being a small guild in Sigil, that has to rely on adventurers.

Well... there's a lot I don't like about 4E, and I fully agree that the 4E version of the planes and the afterlife is much less interesting than the Planescape version. However... I have to say that one thing I do like is that the 4E designers followed continuity better than the 3E designers when it comes to Sigil itself (even if they did mutilate the rest of the multiverse). Sure, there are some slight continuity glitches, like the fate of the Shattered Temple... but 3E pretty much ignored the Faction War altogether, and even had the temerity to assign an alignment to the Lady of Pain. 4E, on the other hand, seems to have done pretty well by the City of Doors. Pity about the rest of the multiverse, though...

What, seriously? I can't think of a single 3e source that does.

Okay, I admit I'm going by memory here... I just moved, and my books are still boxed up and not easily accessible right now. And it's very possible I'm remembering this wrong, in which case I welcome corrections. But as I recall... Sigil was mentioned in very few 3E products to begin with, and all those that did stated or implied that the factions were still in control there. I think (though again I could be misremembering) that the Planar Handbook made the matter of the factions running Sigil explicit—though, admittedly, it did have a prestige class for the Mind's Eye, which only existed after the Faction War, so I guess it can't really be accused of ignoring the Faction War altogether. Don't recall off the top of my head what's said about Sigil in the 3E Manual of the Planes. I do, however, seem to recall an adventure, too—Lord of the Iron Fortress, I think?—that made the Mercykillers out to be still very much intact, contradicting the faction's fate at the end of Faction War. (Sure, even after the Faction War there may have still been a few strays about who still claimed to be members of the "original" Mercykillers faction instead of the Sodkillers or the Sons of Mercy that it split (back) into... but the module made the Mercykillers out to be still a major player and seemed to be convinced they were still just as powerful and just as much a united faction as they ever were, not acknowledging the events of the Faction War at all.)

This is a matter of opinion, obviously, but in my opinion... yes. Yes it does. Her political concerns and her past deeds are "fluff". Alignment is a game statistic. A game statistic with some role-playing implications, a game statistic that corresponds to something characters may actually refer to in-game, sure, but a game statistic nonetheless, and giving the Lady of Pain any concrete game statistics is a step in the wrong direction. Sure, it's nowhere near as bad as if they'd, say, given her 40 hit dice, a Fort Save of +20, and the spellcasting abilities of a 30th-level sorcerer... but it's still a very different thing from stating her concerns about the rising power of the Indeps and the actions she took in response.

Like I said, my opinion. Your mileage may (and apparently does) vary.

Never had or read Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, so I didn't know about that one, but I stand corrected on the Planar Handbook. I'd forgotten about that part.

What, if anything, did the 3E Manual of the Planes say about Sigil and the factions?

Don't entirely agree about the Mercykillers in Rigus... as I said, I can certainly see some factioneers still claiming to be Mercykillers despite the faction's official dissolution, but I still think it should have had more effect than the adventure made it seem. Especially in a place like Rigus, which is an important gate-town, not some backwater that would have taken a while to get the news. Still, I see your point, even if I don't entirely agree with it, so maybe we can agree to disagree here.

I'm going to guess true neutral. Anything else just wouldn't fit her.

Oh, and Sigil is also mentioned here, though not in-depth to any degree.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20010730a

It was LN. I'd agree that it should have been TN, myself.

OK, here we go. Haven't dug my 3E books out of storage yet, but I also have PDF copies, and I've taken a glance through them.

It's the Manual of the Planes that says the factions are in control of Sigil:

(Sigil is also described briefly in the Epic Level Handbook, but there, while it says nothing about the Faction War, it says nothing to imply it didn't happen either, so that doesn't really weigh in one way or the other.)

So... yeah, clearly I overstated the case about 3E ignoring the Faction War. There were indeed some 3E products that contradicted its events (the Manual of the Planes and (at least arguably) Lord of the Iron Fortress), but I'd forgotten there were also others that acknowledged them (the Planar Handbook and Expedition to the Demonweb Pits). So yeah, 3E's treatment of the Faction War wasn't as unanimously negative as I'd remembered; it was just inconsistent. Still think 4E's treated Sigil better overall, though, although, again, I certainly can't say the same for the rest of the planes.

"The Guardians of the Gates formed shortly after the god Vecna managed what no deity had ever done: He entered the City of Doors... the steel dragon Virtraxentyr started the Guardians of the Gates to protect the City of Doors. At first, he and his draconic children protected only gates into Sigil,but he quickly realized how economically powerful a mapped network of dimensional portals would be... As the network grew, Virtraxentyr and his kin brought in more and more assistance... A protrctive steel dragon named Irthossalur is the current leader... The network of portals created over centuries of work has allowed Irthossalur to amass a great fortune in both marerial goods and interplanar knowledge..."

The version of Sigil described in the DMG II (and Kingdom of the Ghouls) pretty clearly takes place only a few years after the Faction War.

The mistake here is in thinking there's still a Planescape to have a timeline, or that 4th edition core materials are trying to present a coherent setting in different books. The whole point of 4th edition "core" is that there's no fixed canon that designers are obligated to pay attention to. Instead, there's just a bunch of proper nouns that they can use however they like. The task of the reader, then, is to choose what they like and ignore the rest. There's no 4e "canon" in the core books. Planescape, which does have a canon, always trumps it.

As far as authorial intent goes, the authors of the Draconomicon II apparently decided to set that book centuries after the events of Die, Vecna, Die!, while the authors of the DMG II decided to set that book only a few years after the events of Faction War. The best assumption, then, might be that the Draconomicon II takes place centuries after the DMG II (and the events of Kingdom of the Ghouls. There's no reason to assume that the Draconomicon II and DMG II are contemporaneous just because they were published in the same year. There are no references in the Draconomicon II to NPCs, events, or locations mentioned in the DMG II other than Sigil, Vecna, the Lady of Pain, and the Market Ward, and all of those things could and presumedly do exist centuries later.

At the time in which the DMG II is set, then (approximately 7-9 years after the Faction War, perhaps, if we go by the amount of time that's passed in 3e, or perhaps assume a little more time has passed since the end of the 3e era) the Guardians of the Gates are just getting started, and probably are made up of only Virtraxentyr and his immediate family. They haven't yet become the plane-spanning, multi-racial organization they'll be in the centuries to come.

I doubt that's going to happen, personally, but my information's no better than yours.

With the planes thoroughly integrated into the core setting (and two hardcovers detailing the core planes still to come) there's really no "setting" for a Planescape setting book to describe. They clearly have no intention to describe the 2nd/3rd edition planes in any detail (they'd have to radically change both the fluff and in some cases the statistics to too many monsters, and it's just not worth it - all 4e campaign settings use the 4e planes). There's room for a 4e Planescape Player's Guide describing the factions, guilds, and other elements, and I'd love to see that, but I don't know what they'd put in a Planescape Campaign Guide.

I agree with Anime Fan. 4E is Canonical with 4E. I view it as an entire retelling of the story. Just like the xmen cartoon isn't canonical with the xmen comics or the xmen movies. It's a different version.

Ok, with that out of the way, here's a question for 4e players.

The guardians of the gates seems like the sort of group that would be very much involved in the adventure in the back of the DMG2. But the group that hired the PCs is the Planer Trade Consortium. Anybody use this adventure and try to work them in? Unfortunately, I've already run most of it, but if I had to do it over, I would have beefed up the second encounter and had a steel dragon fly in to help out.

""But what about Ebberon, etc? If they haven't gone forward to match""

Eberron was never meant to match up with other campaign settings, as evidenced by the fact that they have a completely different, zany cosmology. Unlike Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms, the Eberron Setting was never designed for cross-setting travel. Probably, this is partly because it would be too difficult to deal with the technological differences between Eberron and all the other settings. Toril and Greyhawk (and Planescape) are medieval to renaissance societies, whereas the society of Eberron is Victorian/Neo-Imperialist. Trying to reconcile the techological differences would be one huge headache on so many levels. Not to mention that the fluff is completely different. While I haven't read EVERYTHING on Eberron's materials, it (unlike the other campaign settings) seems to maintain that the various races are native to Eberron, whereas with Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms/Toril, it states that most of the sentient races are not indigenous to the planets, but rather, came via ancient interplanar diasporas (which I think is originally part of the Spelljammer fluff) Another example: One of the books (Dragons of Eberron, I think) states that gem dragons are the result of an ancient genetic experiment combining chromatic and metallic dragon DNA, rather than being their own species as they are in other settings. If you really wanted to explain it away however, in all likelihood Eberron would be a self-contained planet like Athas, seeing as how even Lolth doesn't have any influence there.

There's a subscriber only history article on Vecna and Kas, that's told completely from the point of view of a Vistani Narrator, this being a 4e Vistani who aren't necessarily Human, and are nomads who travel between Shadowfell and other worlds. The interesting thing is that she mentions that Vecna escapes his Shadowfell Domain (4e parlance for a Ravenloft Domain), but not much else after that other than he's a deity. It's almost as if they ignored most of Die Vecna Die or retconned it away, but then again it's an in character narration so the details are highly suspect.

Most of the article was about why Vecna became a Lich, the alliance and betrayal of Acerak, and his relationship with Kas. The Narrator claims the Sword of Kas had a fragment of Vecna's mind, and influenced Kas, now a Vampire Paladin to betray Vecna.