Diamonds are a Modron's Best Friend

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Shemeska the Marauder's picture
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Diamonds are a Modron's Best Friend

At least that's the line on the cover of Dungeon 144 Laughing out loud

I just want to point out the adventure 'Diplomacy' in the current issue of the magazine because it's stuffed with planar material. Janni, a tertian modron, an arcanaloth archmage, xorn, guardinals, mercane... all sorts of good stuff. Chris Wissel did a nice job on it, and I had the opportunity to pitch in on some of the editing as far as the planar references were concerned.

I didn't write it, but I'm curious to see what folks' reactions are to the adventure. It looks like a good fraction of my suggestions got taken into account in the final version that went to print, especially as the 'loths are concerned. Eye-wink

Lots of fiendish goodness, so to speak: A 3.5 arcanaloth revision, a 3e reference to the Tower of Incarnate Pain, a reference to Helekanalaith, and a bit of detail on the fate of the Staff of the Lower Planes.

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Diamonds are a Modron's Best Friend

One thing of note here, as I get to read over my copy of the issue.

The modron was originally written up as an inevitable, and the switch to a modron seems to have been a last minute change. Some of the original fluff regarding the inevitable seems to have stayed in, so the modron is listed as a construct, and diamonds are mentioned as being a componant of modron creation and upkeep, when that line was originally meant to refer to inevitables.

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Diamonds are a Modron's Best Friend

Is it just referred to as a construct in the fluff, or also in the stat block?

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Diamonds are a Modron's Best Friend

Yep, I'll definitely have to pick that one up. Laughing out loud

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Shemeska the Marauder's picture
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Diamonds are a Modron's Best Friend

'ripvanwormer' wrote:
Is it just referred to as a construct in the fluff, or also in the stat block?

In the stat block as well, with the lawful and extraplanar subtypes. It's probably again a remnant of the original zelekhut that was there.

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I'll definitely be picking it up -but what of the arcanoloth's CR/stats? (I mean compared to the 3.5 ultroloth... well, I'll be polite and leave it at that).

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Diamonds are a Modron's Best Friend

'Dialexis' wrote:
I'll definitely be picking it up -but what of the arcanoloth's CR/stats? (I mean compared to the 3.5 ultroloth... well, I'll be polite and leave it at that).

The revised arcanaloth isn't printed on its own as a seperate creature, you have to work back from the stats for Sharlocke. They originally intended to do it on its own as well, but page space concerns precluded it.

But, that said, the arcanaloth is no longer an underpowered CR 17. The MMIII Ultroloth still sucks, but Jacobs said elsewhere that they weren't trying to balance the arcanaloth against that as any sort of high bar for power level, but against a hypothetical more powerful Ultroloth an example of which might be represented by an advanced Ultroloth that appeared in Dungeon a few issues ago. Aka the arcanaloth is no longer weak, but they don't consider the baseline Ultroloth in the MMIII to be strong enough, and they would use an advanced version of the Ultroloth in future Dungeon issues if it applied.

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Ah, music to my ears, my friend.

Also, what issue had an Ultroloth in it (my subsription ran out a couple of months ago and I've been lax in renewing -but not due to disinterest).

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Diamonds are a Modron's Best Friend

'Shemeska the Marauder' wrote:
'ripvanwormer' wrote:
Is it just referred to as a construct in the fluff, or also in the stat block?

In the stat block as well, with the lawful and extraplanar subtypes. It's probably again a remnant of the original zelekhut that was there.


Actually, it's probably intentional. Paizo's direction with the modrons is in the construct direction rather than outsider. Personally, I thought Living Construct subtype is appropriate for them, but in the article I pitched to them, they wanted to go with standard Construct type. *shrug*

I haven't had a chance to completely read this adventure, though, but from the little I've skimmed it's one of the most Planescape-y ones I've seen in a long time. Actually planar without being "sneak into evil plane and kill stuff".

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Diamonds are a Modron's Best Friend

That's a shame. Making modrons constructs (living or otherwise) takes away from their position as the equivalents of baatezu, archons, and slaadi. It diminishes their importance on the Great Wheel and, what's more, it means Mechanus doesn't have a major outsider race of its own (since formians are native to Arcadia).

A poor decision all around, in my opinion. I'd prefer them to be outsiders with construct traits.

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'ripvanwormer' wrote:
That's a shame. Making modrons constructs (living or otherwise) takes away from their position as the equivalents of baatezu, archons, and slaadi. It diminishes their importance on the Great Wheel and, what's more, it means Mechanus doesn't have a major outsider race of its own (since formians are native to Arcadia).

A poor decision all around, in my opinion. I'd prefer them to be outsiders with construct traits.


I definitely have mixed feelings about it. But, the MotP web enhancement had a good Outsider version of the modrons, and converting to 3.5 is pretty straightforward (I wouldn't be surprised to find them on PW somewhere already).

On the one hand, I do see the symmetry of having them be the "Lawful Outsiders" on par with the celestials, fiends, and slaadi. However, on the other hand, I do like the delicious irony of the lawful side of Great Wheel being the oddball. Perhaps its a deeper balance having the order broken by the plane of order.

But mostly I just comfort myself thinking that the MotP web enhancement did a good Outsider version, and the current Paizo ones are an alternative version. If nothing else, stats are stats and the real meat is the flavor/fluff. The adventure in Dungeon #144, and the article in Dragon #354 are still useful if you use the Outsider versions of the modrons rather than the Construct ones (other than the weird bit about needing diamonds for creation).

However, I have no idea what the final version of the Dragon article is, but beyond the stats and modron background that any Planescape fan already knows, I included some material extrapolating some recent history from the events of the Great Modron March. So hopefully it's not totally useless for those who don't like Construct versions, but we won't know what the final version will look like for at least a month.

Also, the more I think about it, it shouldn't too much work to modify the new Paizo versions to Outsiders.

    Give them a Con score (I'd start with 10 + 2 x rank as a basis and modify it based on that rank's role)
    Do some math to up the BAB and Saves, drop some hit points (remembering to remove the Construct bonus for size)
    Then give some thought to having 6 more skill points per HD

The CR's for the higher ones might drop a point since you would lose a lot of Construct immunities (unless you wanted to keep them in as Modron traits).

I don't think there would be any point to this with the tertian in Dungeon #144 since I think it's just that conversion in reverse (they took the MotP web enhancement and made it a Construct), but I'm not positive. But the Dragon #354 modrons should be significantly different enough to be worth the conversion. Just a thought.

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'Zjelani' wrote:
The adventure in Dungeon #144, and the article in Dragon #354 are still useful if you use the Outsider versions of the modrons rather than the Construct ones (other than the weird bit about needing diamonds for creation).

The diamonds in Dungeon #144 were there in the original draft as needed componants for Inevitable construction, and as such I didn't raise any issue with it because as written that was fine, and kinda cool in a way, similar to how some golems require a gemstone as a focus of sorts during their animation. The change of the Zelekhaut into a Tertian tossed a bit of a wrench into that however, and I'm not sure if the requirement for diamonds was an accidental holdover, or a conscious decision that went along with making them constructs. I would have preferred Outsider... would have greatly preferred outsider, but there are ways around it and if some statblock wierdness is the price to be paid for Modrons being back in solid coverage in 3.x, I'll take it.

It's better than the "oh they all died wink wink giggle nobody likes them everyone thinks they're too goofy" gobbledegook implied from the Planar handbook chat.

*sip of scotch*

But anyways, that aside, just out of curiousity Ken, not that you can tell us specifics about content in the article, but in your Modron article in 354 did you incorporate the material that was relevant to the Modrons from Matt Sernett's dragon article on vestiges?

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'Shemeska the Marauder' wrote:
But anyways, that aside, just out of curiousity Ken, not that you can tell us specifics about content in the article, but in your Modron article in 354 did you incorporate the material that was relevant to the Modrons from Matt Sernett's dragon article on vestiges?
I did brief reference to it since a fair chunk of the non-stat portion of my article dealt with the implications of the last modron march [no idea if it got cut or not but it was a major focus]. So I had a off-hand reference to the last Primus being a vestige.

In Matt Sernett's article, I believe it mentioned that there is still a new Primus if I recall, so that answered for me whether I could have the modrons be without a Primus at the moment. I wasn't sure I wanted to go that far anyway, but I had toyed with the idea. Either way, the way I wrote it, things aren't all happy in Regulus. Finally got to write down some ideas I have had for years on the current state of the modrons.

Otherwise, I'll have to re-read it again, but I don't think there was a lot of new modron info in that article and it mostly focused on the Primus-vestige. But it was months ago that I worked on this, so I might have forgotten something.

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Diamonds are a Modron's Best Friend

One advantage to statting modrons as constructs is that it means they can be aided and repaired by the clockwork menders (MMIV), which is specifically tied to the constructs of Mechanus. I'd still rather they were outsiders, though.

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Diamonds are a Modron's Best Friend

Okay, I read the adventure. It was an interesting scenario, based more on diplomacy than combat. I liked it. The NPCs were varied and interesting.

After some consideration, I didn't find the idea that diamonds are an integral part of modron creation objectionable. I imagine that Primus, in the Time Before Time, decided to create its servants using, in part, the hardest substance known. Sounds sensible. With its divine powers Primus was able to create as much diamond as it needed, so availability wasn't a problem.

Then the Powers of Creation (possibly the same as what other myths call the Twin Serpents) created the Mechanus mediators, beings of nearly omnipotent abilities tasked with ensuring that every aspect of the Clockwork Universe was in perfect balance with every other. They dramatically reduced the amount of diamonds available to Primus, determining that diamond couldn't exceed any other mineral in quantity. As a result, Primus was only able to create enough modrons to staff one enormous realm - a vast number only the One and Prime, and possibly the moignos, was capable of calculating, but still not the infinity that Primus had originally intended. There was a contest of wills between the three mediators and the One and Prime, the latter creating and the former destroying, but ultimately the mediators won.

Because Primus is a being of Law incarnate, it cannot change the composition of modrons at this late date. It is not that Primus is unable to change its mind, only that it is unable to go back on its promises, and it had (in retrospect, foolishly) promised the modrons would have diamonds.

The vast diamond mine in the Elemental Plane of Earth offers an opportunity to rectify this ancient mistake. While it cannot create more diamonds on Mechanus, it can use diamonds gained elsewhere to make modrons on other planes - even filling the planes with modrons, allowing Law to flourish across the multiverse.

Another improbable thing I'm willing to accept is that issue's Downer episode, which portrays a flying ethergaunt fortress approaching Sigil - from the outside.

This is obviously impossible, since magic doesn't work there, and without magic there's no way to ascend the infinite Spire.

Except it makes a reference to them being ethereal - what if the ethergaunts discovered some way of using the strange connection between Sigil and the ethereal Mazes to bypass the Spire entirely? As brilliant as the ethergaunts are supposed to be, I've decided to allow it - at least, until the Lady of Pain decides to patch the flaw in her defenses that permits this exploit.

Jem
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Diamonds are a Modron's Best Friend

So the notion of modrons replenishing their number, one by one, from the bottom up, until a monodrone somewhere divides using the recycled input from the energy pool -- has this gone completely by the wayside, and now modrons can be reduced or increased in number indefinitely? Can Primus simply build more when he wishes?

I'm... unclear on the present status (history, and physical nature) of modrons in the most "official" sense now.

Let me add, by the way, that I love a good diplomacy-oriented adventure and greatly enjoyed this one as well. If I were in a Planescape game presently I'd point my GM at it pronto. Chock full of good Planescape stuff, too, from the guardinal down to the 'loth. Tell whoever decides what gets published for this sort of thing that I'd lke to see more like it. :^)

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'Jem' wrote:
I'm... unclear on the present status (history, and physical nature) of modrons in the most "official" sense now.
The official 3.0 modron info can be found in the Manual of the Planes Web Enhancement.

-420

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'Jem' wrote:
So the notion of modrons replenishing their number, one by one, from the bottom up, until a monodrone somewhere divides using the recycled input from the energy pool -- has this gone completely by the wayside, and now modrons can be reduced or increased in number indefinitely? Can Primus simply build more when he wishes?

I wouldn't say "completely." Apparently creating new monodrones is somewhat involved, but the number of modrons may still be stable.

Jem
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Mm. I have the web enhancement 420 refers to... wasn't sure if it was being overridden. On a close reading, I suppose the monodrone fission isn't described as taking place instantly; the nearest available monodrone might have to report somewhere to get the additional mass, of which diamonds are a necessary part. Allright, that's speculative but it's sufficient for me.

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