Before i even begin this, I would like to stress the point that this is not me. I mean, the peson Im talking about is a friend of mine.
But anyway, my original DM (lets call him 'bob') has recently taken an intrest in Planescape. However, he grew up with the original DnD setting since version 2 and up, and since planescape was absorbed into the rest of DnD, he can't tell the differance between regular DnD and Planescape, because all the planes, even sigil, in mentioned in the DM's Guide.
But, try as I might, I can't seem to describe the true idea of Planescape to him. That its not just where you play, its how you play it. Please help me convince him.
describing planescape
Sun, 2004-12-05 11:26
#1
describing planescape
Sun, 2004-12-05 12:56
#3
describing planescape
Regular D&D is killing monsters and taking their stuff.
Planescape, not so much. You can't kill all the monsters you meet, because there's always something bigger than you. Even the gods have forces far above them that they can't touch. And that's not the goal, anyway.
In Planescape, belief is more important than treasure. Does the monster share in your philosophy at all? And I don't mean alignment - philosophical guilds can have strange bedfellows. Maybe your mission is to recruit the monster into your sect or faction. Maybe the mission is to convince it its beliefs are wrong to prevent the town it's mayor of from sliding into another plane. Maybe your mission is to prevent some other group from gaining its philosophical allegiance. Maybe you're there to blackmail the monster, or shut down its business, or recover some abstract concept that it stole, like the bravery of the Lion Lord.
The base concept of the campaign is belief is power. It's about the struggle, or kriegstanz (war-dance) between the fifteen factions and innumerable lesser sects, between good and evil and law and chaos and good and chaos and evil and law and fire and water and light and shadow and earth and sky and life and death and death and earth and evil and earth and balance, balance, balance. That's the primary dynamic of Planescape proper: ideals, ideas, forces, and alignments, competing theories of the meaning of existence struggling for supremacy using methods both noble and not-so-noble.
Belief can make gods. Belief can unmake them. Belief can change the shape of the cosmology or preserve it.
What else? The rule of threes: between any duality or extremes there is a middle ground, a balance, a synthesis. Or as a running theme: three encounters, three aspects of every situation, three solutions to every problem, three possible endings to every adventure.
Center of all: no place in the multiverse is more important than any other. In an infinity, every point is the center. Wherever you go, there you are. Your belief is just as valid as that of gods and demons, just as powerful. No matter how strong you get, there's still stronger things all the way up.
Unity of rings: things return toward their source. Evil turns on itself. Good deeds come back to you. Life and death and the wheel of alignments and the elements are all part of one cycle, each feeding the other, all ultimately part of the same ring. Events are their own causes, as often as not.
That's not the only way you can play Planescape, of course. Maybe you'd rather turn the focus away from the kriegstanz and more toward exotic landscapes and strange addictions and alien beings and daring genre-mixing. We won't judge you, honest.
Sun, 2004-12-05 15:13
#4
describing planescape
That is quite possibly the best discription of planescape I have ever read. Do you mind If i copy that down and hand it out in pamphlete form?
Unfortunetly, Tenshi is sitting next to me and flipping out because 'all the stuff he just said can be done by the DM in regualr DnD!' end quote.
And while I admit, In regular DnD a DM could do it, the DM can do anything, so the point is moot.
And apperantly, Tenshi was brought into the fold by a couple of deep immersian focused DM's named John ( yes, both of them)
So he started off playing planescape in style, if not in setting. But now he sees no reason to change. and the moment I finish this hes going to make a reply, most likly insulting my ethnicity, intrests, and general beliefs.
Sun, 2004-12-05 15:35
#5
describing planescape
What Fidrikon said is not all true... yes I am going to defend GreyHawk, but I will not put down Planescape... to tell you the truth at first I was- well undecided about it, but playing with Fidrikon I've grown to realize that it actually isn't that much different from how I am used to playing and DMing... First I would like to say that GreyHawk is not all killing monsters then taking the treasure, that type of play is called "Kick-In-The-Door" Style of play, and I admit that most players and DMs play like this, I call them "Chaotic Players" for my own purposes, but ever since I started to play, both of my DMs used old school GreyHawk, and both (yes they were both named John ironically) used a mix of deep imersion, puzzle, well devoloped character, and a intracit battle style, they mixed every single type possable- wich sounds alot like your description of Planescape, and as I started to DM, this is the style that I have come to love and use... and as Fidrikon said, I could actually fall directly into Planescape, wich I have experienced becuase I have not only DM'd with him but gave up DMing for a few days to become one of his players, and I enjoy his quests, even though some of them are really-... really wierd... but my point is that GreyHawk was ment to be flexable, and I don't like "Chaotic Players" (I have nothing against the alignment itself lol) it was never really meant to just be "killing things"- unfortunately players have made it to be that way... Thank you for the answer though, there are quite a few things in there that are different from GreyHawk, and I'm grateful to you for pointing them out ^_^ ... now I will have to print it out and memorize it down to the last T lol, once agian thank you, and now I'm off to kill Fidrikon lol
Sun, 2004-12-05 15:44
#6
describing planescape
once agian thank you, and now I'm off to kill Fidrikon lol
Kill me? Have you seen my reflex and fortidude saves?
Sun, 2004-12-05 16:48
#7
describing planescape
Kill me? Have you seen my reflex and fortidude saves?
Haha, but I'm a DM, so have you seen my saves?... shit I just realized, yer a DM too... there is no room for two gods in this forum pilgrim lol... by the way... I was just Joking, why would I kill one of my best players?....... and friends.... 
Sun, 2004-12-05 18:18
#8
describing planescape
Fine, truce. Just sign here...
Good.... AHA!
THATS WHAT YOU GET FOR NOT READING THE FINE PRINT! YOUR SOUL IS MINE! :twisted:
And now, for my first order....
do a little dance
Sun, 2004-12-05 20:36
#9
describing planescape
First I would like to say that GreyHawk is not all killing monsters then taking the treasure, that type of play is called "Kick-In-The-Door" Style of play
Oh, I agree with that. I'm an old Greyhawker myself, and I should have been more careful when defining what "regular D&D" was. Mea culpa. Praise be to Keoghtom and Celestian, patrons of planar travel.
It's not that Planescape is supposed to be roleplaying-intensive that makes it different, but the specific themes in which this is expressed.
These specific themes (belief is power, the rule of threes, etc.) tend to make any campaign more Planescapey.
And, to some small extent, all D&D campaigns are Planescape in that Planescape was intended to encompass them all. It's a multiverse-wide setting, after all.
Mon, 2004-12-06 09:14
#10
describing planescape
These specific themes (belief is power, the rule of threes, etc.) tend to make any campaign more Planescapey.
Yeah, I understood what you meant, but I had to defend what I grew up with ya know ^^ ? but yeah, after you did the description of planescape I realized that Planescape has many areas and ideas that I had never even heard of... thanks for clerifying 
Wed, 2004-12-08 07:39
#11
describing planescape
Yeah, I understood what you meant, but I had to defend what I grew up with ya know
i grew up with my sister beating me up and dressing me in dresses and making me dance for her while she did mind altering drugs but i don't defend that.........well, mabye the drugs but thats it......and mabye the dresses.........and dancing.......uhhhhhh.....i'll shut up now
Wed, 2004-12-08 07:59
#12
describing planescape
dude! you know what I mean... if somebody was bashing on Zelda and old school NES, you'd defend it right? (not that anyone was bashing on anything... just stating a point)
Wed, 2004-12-08 09:13
#13
describing planescape
The shortest description of planescape to hack&slashers is: "Low level players in high CR area, where those really big monsters aren't behind nine mountains and behind nine hills, but right here in the neighbourhood" :twisted:
I think that should explain all the upsides and downsides and those players that don't run away in horror can stay and listen about the lady, the rule of threes and the multiverse relativity 
Wed, 2004-12-08 09:26
#14
describing planescape
Would I be correct in assuming that Planescape tends to focus more on the outer planes? becuase from what I've read of the planes in the DMs guide- GreyHawk hardly leaves a huge description for the outer planes, but as for the major planes they'll leave a good page and a half- but the outer planes... lucky if you get to read two paragraphs.
Wed, 2004-12-08 09:42
#15
describing planescape
It depends on the GM actually.
I've had a GM run us almost entirely in Sigil, another had two different 'phases' for his game - one outer planes, one inner. As large as the scope is, it really depends on the GM's story for where things are going to focus.
Unless the game is set up as a wide ranging plane's hopping plot, usually the major plot points end up involving just a handful of planes. (I actually can't think of a single time my current game of 2yrs has gone to the Beastlands for example.)
Thu, 2004-12-09 04:28
#16
describing planescape
unfortunetly, as much as Iv've heard about the beastlands, I don't really see a need to got there. Unless were looking for something that got lost in the beastlands.
but then again, I know next to nothing about the beastlands, only what little.... odd... bits Ive picked up here and there.
ps: congrats to clueless for reaching 300 posts!
Thu, 2004-12-09 09:25
#17
describing planescape
Beastlands is the heaven for tarzan and jungle book type of people. Okay, there isn't much to see in the place where dusk (or day or night) runs forever and animals talk, but it's border town is very cool with all those jungle ruins
Thu, 2004-12-09 10:17
#18
describing planescape
There's always spell component hunting... Not that you want to let people *know* that's why yer going there. There's a few tour guides that work that plane as well, and there's always the chance of some odd power's realm being in there that you have to visit. I can think of some reasons to go there - it's just the campaign never touched on em.
Thu, 2004-12-09 13:07
#19
describing planescape
hey fidrikon, we totally got to do a spell component hunt some time. i'm sure pimp daddy vreeland would love it also. and if we killed nick in the beastlands and left him there no one would bother looking for the body.lol
Fri, 2004-12-10 09:31
#20
describing planescape
So dread pirate swan, we still up for torturing my lil brother with mummyrot and the "wooden pen"?
anyway back on some sort of the subject... yesterday I learned (and witnessed) the power of belief... that was freaky- but awsome... I love the idea of if you believe and will it hard enough, it will exist... Yay to the power of belief!
Fri, 2004-12-10 10:47
#21
describing planescape
ps: congrats to clueless for reaching 300 posts!
*chuckle* I hadn't even noticed.
Fri, 2004-12-10 11:47
#22
describing planescape
Would I be correct in assuming that Planescape tends to focus more on the outer planes?
As Clueless said, it depends on the GM. A planescape campaign can take place in the Outer planes, Inner planes, Prime worlds, transitive planes or even under the floorboards of a tavern in the Lower wards.
The great thing about infinite planes is that you can fit everything in to them. When I have used single world material, e.g. Athas, FR or Greyhawk - I have always worried about where to place locations that I made up or knowing enough ebout the major towns, cities etc.
Instead it becomes more about the peope/entities that the players meet along the way. In fact, restricting the number of planes that they visit can be an issue as there is a HUGE amount of matrial for a new GM to Planescape to find out about.
When I thnk about a campaign I usually start with a concept that encompasses some really big things. For example, a Sect that feeds off belief trying to break planar boundaries with their Far Realm allies.
Then I think about how to condense that concept in to something on a more local level. Like who are the major players, then the minor players and finally how can the PCs affect things on the micro-level to affect the macro-level.
After all, Planescape is about belief. If enough people believe something then that will affect one or more realities.
The Kriegtanz in Sigil can be compared to a stage in which the plane-shaping conflicts are acted out in miniature. Never the less even the players in Sigil are not to be toyed with.
Which finally brings me around to th enigmas and unexplained things. This gives the GMs a lot of scope for coming up with adventure ideas and hopefully teaches the PCs that some things can never be known.
For example, who/what is The Lady? Is Akin really friendly, or is it all a charade? Who makes Zadara's clothes?
Thanks for reading my random ramblings...
Fri, 2004-12-10 11:58
#23
describing planescape
Zadara?
I don't know enough about sigil ( damn it dad, why wont you download those thinf from rpgnow!)
So, who is zadara, and why are her clothes that surprising?
hmmmm...
I just had an idea. A cool idea. Its an itme, serious, but im gonna go put it in the silly items page cause its kinda weird. away.............
Fri, 2004-12-10 11:56
#24
describing planescape
And what are the chances of successfully setting up Zadara and another party member on a blind date. *SMIRK* (Done it. Clueless is providing the flowers.)
Fri, 2004-12-10 12:10
#25
describing planescape
hmmmm...
I just had an idea. A cool idea. Its an itme, serious, but im gonna go put it in the silly items page cause its kinda weird. away.............
lol another item!? you do realize that if we keep posting new items like we are that the list is gunna end up being huge (or is that the point)... I think we put atleast two items in that thing a day lol...
but anyway, I was wondering about Sigil, now I've heard about it and know a few things like it's a trade city and that the Lady of Pain watches over it (ok I know mostly about the Lady of Pain lol, there isn't a moment that goes by that I don't think that she's gunna maze me someday- Ah! Planescape on the brain 24/7! >.< ), but is there any other info that anyone can give?
Fri, 2004-12-10 12:27
#26
describing planescape
i havn't told you about portals... wow.
Tenshi, im burning you a copy of planescape torment. while not exact, that game will give you most of the answers your looking for. and some that your not.
the situation is under control people! theres nothing to see here!
Fri, 2004-12-10 12:29
#27
describing planescape
I still have my copy remember... oh nm... well I guess I could learn from that- but... well, last time I tried playing Torment- well yeah... you know what I mean- I don't want to finish for the fear of being lynched
Fri, 2004-12-10 13:06
#28
describing planescape
Zadar is a Titan, the only known one in the City of Doors.
Sigil does have a fair amount of trade going through it, but it's not really a trade city. With portals to everywhere and no deities, philosophres with clubs constantly vie for control of the city in an undeclared war -> kriegstanz.
Planescape: Torment is so good it boggles the mind. But every time that I play I end up LG.... hmm, must try selling people in to slavery next time :twisted:
Fri, 2004-12-10 13:40
#29
describing planescape
dude! you know what I mean... if somebody was bashing on Zelda and old school NES, you'd defend it right? (not that anyone was bashing on anything... just stating a point)
As an aside, I work at an EB Games, and whenever Zelda comes up in conversation when my manager is around and customers are not, he rants about how much he hates Zelda. All of them. It annoys me to no end. He seems to get the idea that just because he doesn't care for something (not just games) it automaticall makes it crap. Other examples of this atitude Spiderman 2 and the X-Men movies he hates them all, mainly because he wants big spectacle and black and white characters. Oh well, I just had to vent.
Carry on
Fri, 2004-12-10 15:47
#30
describing planescape
well, you work at an eb agmes, so thats always a plus. Can't have everything going your way, whats the fun in that?
that what i tell myself to make the monkeis go away.... what?
yea, something tells me that the Dread Pirate will have a thing or two to say about this when he logs on monday.
Sat, 2004-12-11 01:11
#31
describing planescape
I still have my copy remember... oh nm... well I guess I could learn from that- but... well, last time I tried playing Torment- well yeah... you know what I mean- I don't want to finish for the fear of being lynched
I don't really like torment much. I remember hearing about it, when dudes i play with started ranting about this weirdo game with a flying skull and a lawful-good succubi and how cool it is, so we thought about trying to play dnd planescape and found some basic material at planewalker.com (those .rtf chapters that are still here) and the .html boxed set and most of them moved on to other worlds and I just stuck with planescape...
Oh yes, torment. I'm getting less young and my IQ likes to drop with my age and as much as I like tons of details and intrigue in dnd games, my favorite computer games consist of blowing things up and killing some other things
Mon, 2004-12-13 07:56
#32
describing planescape
someone who hates zelda.......my fragile little world just colasped upon itself............
Mon, 2004-12-13 09:11
#33
describing planescape
As an aside, I work at an EB Games, and whenever Zelda comes up in conversation when my manager is around and customers are not, he rants about how much he hates Zelda. All of them. It annoys me to no end. He seems to get the idea that just because he doesn't care for something (not just games) it automaticall makes it crap. Other examples of this atitude Spiderman 2 and the X-Men movies he hates them all, mainly because he wants big spectacle and black and white characters. Oh well, I just had to vent.
Wow, I completely agree, and pleas by all means, vent as much as you want lol... how can he bash on Zelda? that is one of the best games out there- possably one of the only games that has a "challange" anymore... well anyway- better let Dread Pirate vent on it later lol
Yes... this is me... the person- I mean DM that he's talking about... It's not that I don't like planescape- actually it confused the hell outta me when I saw Sigil in the DM's guide, it's that I'm not quiet sure if there is really any difference between the two- or at least any differences that can't be argueable (is that even a word?)... so if someone could give me a few differences it would help me tremendously...
and yes when we play, it's usually a wierd mix of Fidrikon's ideas and mine, so we do use what little we have of Planscape...
^_^