Cross-planar wars

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Wicke's picture
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Cross-planar wars

This thought has been rumbling around in my head for a while now. And when I say cross-planar wars, I mean something other than the Blood War. Given that each plane on the Great Wheel has an opposite, it seems natural that such diametrically opposed planes would come to blows on occasion. As I see it, the general oppositional conflicts are as follows:

Mechanus (Law) vs Limbo (Chaos)
Arcadia (Cohesiveness) vs Pandemonium (Insanity)
Mount Celestia (Righteousness) vs The Abyss (Depravity)
Bytopia (Honesty) vs Carceri (Treachery)
Elysium (Good) vs The Grey Wastes (Evil)
Beastlands (Nature) vs Gehenna (Industry)
Arborea (Beauty) vs Baator (Ugliness? drawing a blank for this one)
Ysgard (Individuality) vs Acheron (Conformity)

There are others that lend themselves to natural conflicts - Arcadia vs Acheron, for instance - and it would be interesting to explore those as well, but I'm only going to start off with the planes in opposition.

What's interesting about oppositional conflicts is that any battles fought would naturally find themselves somewhere out on the Outlands. An army from Acheron isn't going to trek the long way around the Great Wheel to reach Ysgard. In fact, I could very easily see how the Outlands might make such ventures come into quick conflict. When travelling between opposite planes with the intent of making war, distances between said opposite planes might be lessened considerably, perhaps only when there is an opposing army also on the march.

Anyway, I'm wanting to explore the idea of non-Blood War wars between the planes. It seems like such things should happen, but don't for whatever reason. Maybe the Blood War itself is to blame.

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Re: Cross-planar wars

It's funny that you bring this up as I redesigned my Great Wheel by adding 10 new planes and created a Great Sphere of 27 (Rule of 3s 3x3x3) so that I had more symmetry (sp?) for the conflict of ideas.

I won't go into all those details but I found that by opposing ideas it helped define a lot of formerly vaguely conceived planes for me.

Back in the traditional sense, you might find it useful to define Arborea (focusing on the Olympus theme) as a plane of freedom. Think of the Greek gods as embodying the freedom to indulge their passions and gusto to the fullest. Think of the elfin and fey beings as Trickster gods who try to shake people out of the ruts of routine unquestioned thought.
Contrast this with the totalitarian control of Baator. Those who wish to create a 1984-type dystopia where one is unable to even consider their own freedom

I thought the parallels between Ysgard and Acheron were strong. Both planes consist of floating islands that crash against each other populated with combative petitioners.
For me, the difference between the two was that Acheron is a plane of futile pointless warfare. I changed that plane so that any petitioner who died there would rise the next day; and would then be magically compelled to join the nearest army, even if that army was the one that he had previously opposed. Thus making the goals of the warfare extremely pointless.
Ysgard, by contrast, is combat for individual glory and distinction

I also made the difference between Elysium and the Grey Wastes to be more of a focus between the forces of life-bestowing power and the powers of death.

I don't know if you can use any of this but these were my tweaks

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Re: Cross-planar wars

Much like you Wicke, I liked the contrast between the planes but I couldn't find a lot of ways to bring those contrasts to full-out conflicts.

Let's see what we have:
*Mechanus vs Limbo
Modrons vs. slaad? The slaad seem viscious enough but not organized enough to start a war.
Would the modrons or inevitables finally decide that it was time to impose order on the slaad?
Would these battles happen on other planes instead of on Mechanus or Limbo (e.g. perhaps the slaad are seeking to make the Beastlands more chaotic and the mordrons are trying to prevent this - I find the idea of a modron in camoflauge as amusing; perhaps some of them will turn into clockwork-type animals)

*Arcadia vs Pandemonium
Again there doesn't seem to be enough people (and definitely not enough people sane enough) to form an army on Pandemonium.
Perhaps the Arcadians decide that they can "cure" Pandemonium? Perhaps in their misguided effects, the Arcadian "missionsaries" end up getting infected and bringing insanity back to Arcadia

*Mount Celestia vs The Abyss
Angels vs. demons - no-brainer

*Bytopia vs Carceri
I personally don't feel that the populations of either plane are very well defined in the cannonical works. I tweaked these far beyond the point where they would be recognizable to most

*Elysium vs The Grey Wastes
Since yugoloths are more of schemers than direct combatants (yes, I know they work as mercs, but I think their real power is in their mysterious plots); I could see this as a Cold War where the yugoloths and the guardians each send agents to subtly influence things to further their goals

*Beastlands vs Gehenna
I'm drawing a blank. Again, I tweaked this substantially

*Arborea vs Baator
I see the eladrin of Arborea sending in covert teams to sneak into Baator and disrupt their operations. Ideally, they would never be discovered.

*Ysgard vs Acheron
I changed things so that the infamous Norse giants lived in Acheron and that dimensional rifts would open periodically between the two planes so that the Norse warriors of Ysgard would charge into Acheron or the giants would try incursions into Ysgard. If one side was victorious, then that plane would gain a new floating island

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Re: Cross-planar wars

Yeah, I can't see most of these groups getting into wars WITH one another.
However, there was a 3.5 Dungeon Magazine adventure that involved a political mission to PREVENT a war between several different planar groups over a mithril mine on... Elysium, I think it was? I can't remember exactly. It was on one of the upper planes, anyway, and everyone wanted to claim it.

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Re: Cross-planar wars

I think it was in the Elemental Plane of Earth, actually, and it was a diamond mine. The modrons wanted it because they needed the diamonds to create more of their kind (which was an odd revelation, but whatever - it was good to see modrons in 3rd edition at all).

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Re: Cross-planar wars

Wicke wrote:
Arborea (Beauty) vs Baator (Ugliness? drawing a blank for this one)

Freedom vs tyranny, I'd say. Or democracy, i.e. "having a say in one's life," versus not having that control. Plato's Republic vs Machiavelli's Prince.

Quote:
What's interesting about oppositional conflicts is that any battles fought would naturally find themselves somewhere out on the Outlands.

Quote:
Anyway, I'm wanting to explore the idea of non-Blood War wars between the planes. It seems like such things should happen, but don't for whatever reason. Maybe the Blood War itself is to blame.

Constant battles on the Outlands would probably find the rilmani objecting, and using their abilities to operate within the Spire's radius of effect to discourage both sides equally, as armies marched through their terrain with decreasing power. An army going the long way around the outer ring would face a lot of opposition from intervening gate-towns of unfriendly alignments before it got to its target, of course. The exceptions would be Arcadia/Pandemonium and Acheron/Ysgard, which could travel entirely along their own side, and past Limbo or Mechanus, before reaching their target. But as you point out, Arcadia and Acheron are occupied with their internal ruckus. Handy of the planes, that. One might almost think Moradin figured it would be a good idea. :^)

Also, there isn't much on Pandemonium to fight, so Arcadia's resources would seem to be better spent against Acheron. As for Ysgard, the Norse being the Norse I can see them getting in a fight or two with Acheronian types.

Of the remainder: the archons stick to Celestia, and the demons of the Abyss are busy with the Blood War. Carceri's inhabitants are trapped and those of Bytopia aren't known for militancy. Elysium and the Waste tend to breed more subtle actions, though of course their war is ancient and ongoing. It's simply quieter.

The powers of Gehenna might try to cause some pain for the Beastlands, that I could see, or some mighty hunt might be declared against a particularly cruel power of the Four Furnaces. Meanwhile, the devils are again busy with the Blood War, and I don't see the Greeks messing with that balance too much.

The fey and the eladrin might march to war, but most likely against the Unseelie, I think. Though historically they did so against the demons, to significant effect -- they practically killed off the obyriths, paving the way for the tanar'ri rise, as outlined in Fiendish Codex I. There's a cross-planar war for you.

The main question I'd ask is, what would any of these cross-planar conflicts seek to accomplish? It's unlikely that any planar blood would be so mad as to think that they stood a chance of utterly defeating their alignment opposites, and there is no territorial or economic advantage to be gained from the affair. Either petitioners aren't going to be used, limiting the number of troops available, or you will be going in sacrificing allied souls utterly, and in devastating numbers. So, it will most likely be limited to exemplars, other planar natives, and supportive mortals. To what goal? The destruction of some new weapon being forged by your opposite numbers? To besiege and raze some stronghold? To kill a new and powerful exponent of the hated philosophy?

Jem
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Re: Cross-planar wars

Palomides wrote:
*Ysgard vs Acheron I changed things so that the infamous Norse giants lived in Acheron and that dimensional rifts would open periodically between the two planes so that the Norse warriors of Ysgard would charge into Acheron or the giants would try incursions into Ysgard. If one side was victorious, then that plane would gain a new floating island

Heh. I was thinking that territory would never be a consideration here, but it's amusing to picture victorious Ysgardians towing an Acheronian cube across the Outlands sky to Muspelheim, or victorious Acheronians doing the same to a Ysgardian sky-island. (Or either one of them taking it back, of course.)

A Ysgardian sky-island might grow better provisions than provender cubes for your forces, and would certainly be a mark of distinction for someone able to organize the expedition to Ysgard to obtain one, fight off its defenders, and drag it back to Acheron.

...the Ysgardians would probably just do it for the kicks.

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Re: Cross-planar wars

Jem wrote:
Freedom vs tyranny, I'd say. Or democracy, i.e. "having a say in one's life," versus not having that control. Plato's Republic vs Machiavelli's Prince.

Yeah, this works better and fits thematically. Just couldn't think of anything that really worked.

Quote:
Constant battles on the Outlands would probably find the rilmani objecting, and using their abilities to operate within the Spire's radius of effect to discourage both sides equally, as armies marched through their terrain with decreasing power. An army going the long way around the outer ring would face a lot of opposition from intervening gate-towns of unfriendly alignments before it got to its target, of course. The exceptions would be Arcadia/Pandemonium and Acheron/Ysgard, which could travel entirely along their own side, and past Limbo or Mechanus, before reaching their target. But as you point out, Arcadia and Acheron are occupied with their internal ruckus. Handy of the planes, that. One might almost think Moradin figured it would be a good idea. :^)

I could almost see such wars almost being the work of the active forces of neutrality, in an effort to bolster the number of petitioners which meld with the Outlands or some such. For every soldier from Ysgard that dies on the Outlands, another from Acheron also dies. Or something like that. All done with an eye towards balance.

Quote:
The main question I'd ask is, what would any of these cross-planar conflicts seek to accomplish? It's unlikely that any planar blood would be so mad as to think that they stood a chance of utterly defeating their alignment opposites, and there is no territorial or economic advantage to be gained from the affair. Either petitioners aren't going to be used, limiting the number of troops available, or you will be going in sacrificing allied souls utterly, and in devastating numbers. So, it will most likely be limited to exemplars, other planar natives, and supportive mortals. To what goal? The destruction of some new weapon being forged by your opposite numbers? To besiege and raze some stronghold? To kill a new and powerful exponent of the hated philosophy?

To be honest, I'm not quite sure what the driving force behind these sorts of conflicts would be. It's been rumbling around in my head for a while now and I thought I'd throw up a thread to see what, if anything, you folks here could come up with. I've been wanting to post this thread for a while now. It grew out of thoughts I've been considering about Acheron/Ysgard, and the idea of oppositional wars just made sense.

Like I mentioned above, one reason I could see is that the wars are the result of direct intervention of the Rilmani or some other actively neutral group. A choice word here or there to plant the idea and fan the flames, and the rest takes care of itself. The end result is that the petitioners that die in such conflicts merge with Outlands and maintain the balance.

Any conflicts that arise wouldn't be anywhere close to the scale or scope of the Blood War, but I could easily see a group heading out to make war on those who are philosophically their opposites.

Anyway, based on what you guys have said above, it seems like the breakdown is such:

Celestia/Abyss - righteous open warfare
Bytopia/Carceri - cold warfare, if there's anything going on
Elysium/Wastes - cold warfare
Arborea/Baator - open warfare, when it breaks out
Ysgard/Acheron - gleefully open warfare

The only three that don't lend themselves to easy conflict are Mechanus/Limbo, Arcadia/Pandemonium, Beastlands/Gehenna.

Jem
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Re: Cross-planar wars

I realize I failed to include Mechanus/Limbo in my list, but now that I think about it, I could certainly see that as a common piece of planar warfare. On the slaadi's side, it would be unpredictable boilings-over during which a sizeable group of slaadi seem to just randomly take into their heads the notion of romping over to Mechanus and making as much of a mess as they can, while the modrons would organize parties that strike at specific objectives in Limbo to decrease the power of Chaos with calculated precision.

I also desire to drop into this conversation the notion of a single, giant braid war, consisting of an odd-length opposition repeated multiply around the Great Circle! With length 7 you'd get:

Elysium -> Gehenna -> Arborea -> Acheron -> Limbo -> Arcadia -> Abyss -> Bytopia -> Waste -> Beastlands -> Baator -> Ysgard -> Mechanus -> Pandemonium -> Celestia -> Carceri -> Elysium

Let's see... what justification can we weave up for this. Elysium's forces, in their most common offensive off-plane sorties, tend to attack yugoloth strongholds on Gehenna rather than the Waste itself. The 'loths, when they do bother to move openly off-plane, focused their efforts historically on Pelion and in recent millenia have been working on the Seelie courts, starting with creating the Unseelie Court. The elves of Arborea are their most common off-plane attackers, and they take the fight to the orc-kind of Acheron. Acheron's armies, mad in the way of iron discipline, claim they can pacify Limbo better than the modrons, and launch grim, expensive attacks on the home of Chaos to carve out power and magic. Limbo's inhabitants, in turn, are perhaps somewhat repelled by Mechanus, and when not beating off incursions from Acheron are more likely to glory in marring the beautiful rigidity of Arcadia. Arcadia defends itself stoutly, and focuses its efforts on fighting the evil and chaos of the Abyss (Pandemonium not being so big a threat).

Mt. Celestia is too well-defended for most demonic invasions, what with the Silver Sea, so Abyssal raids are conducted (usually through Astral pools) to plunder and loot the rich fields of relatively undefended Bytopia, despite Mt. Celestia's best assistance. Bytopians tend not to respond militaristically, but rather to work hard and wage cold war against the Waste, through productivity and charity, their businesses funding trade missions, relief organizations and propaganda teams that fight hopelessness, disease and death across the planes, even in the heart of them.

The Waste doesn't care. When it boils over and pops, its powers' tiny skirmish parties usually carry some plague or pollution into the pristine beauty of the Beastlands, taking delight in ravaging the colorful ecosystem there, rather than facing their Elysian opposites directly. While they sometimes respond, the powers of the Beastland are more concerned with doing their part in the wars against evil, and tend to send small hunting packs against the devils in Baator, who annoy them more than demons (or the less-blatant yugoloths).

Baator is far too powerful to care about most of those attacks, rarely losing anything significant to them. While it focuses the vast share of its attention on the Blood War, when it does strike against the good powers it tends to make the most efficient strike possible against the chaotic types, going for Ysgard just above the Good/Evil break.

I can't really think of a good reason for Ysgard to be attacking Mechanus with any regularity, unless it's perhaps Surtr and Thrym upholding the banner of chaos, or generally Vanir from Muspelheim rather than the better-known Aesir. In that case, I suppose it makes sense that the greatest proponents of order might anger them the most. They don't do a lot of damage, though, mostly petty strikes and thefts. Meanwhile, Mechanus sends modron mind-healers to Pandemonium with great frequency, in a long-standing project to understand the nature of madness and its healing. Naturally, the inhabitants object, so these parties are well-protected, and the whole affair can look a great deal like a war.

The powers of Pandemonium... why do they focus their spite on Celestia? Perhaps Auril and Talos assail their pantheonic brethren, goaded on to stupid bravado by Loki? Celestia simply defends itself and watches for escapes from Carceri, which are often sorties of evil headed directly for Elysium and the center of the goodness the prisoners were denied.

Hmm. That's a kind of weird setup, isn't it.

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Re: Cross-planar wars

""The main question I'd ask is, what would any of these cross-planar conflicts seek to accomplish? It's unlikely that any planar blood would be so mad as to think that they stood a chance of utterly defeating their alignment opposites, and there is no territorial or economic advantage to be gained from the affair.""

We already know that archons and angels war against demons and devils.
It's logical to conclude that Eladrin would do the same, but in their case they'd resort to subterfuge rather than actual war.
One problem with Palomides' ideas is that too many of the races stick to their own plane of existence. This is particularly true of the Gehreleths, who, besides the point, lack the numbers necessary to accomplish anything in a war (even to repel an invasion, which is why they kinda just bitterly let the main three fiendish races have their way with the plane)
Modrons also stick too closely to their plane to cause any trouble. The only modron war I could picture happening is one between the Slaadi and a group of unified rogue modrons.
I can also picture some of the celestial races (esp. generals and such who pull ill-advised crap and are more prudish and judgemental than usual) going to war against the slaadi for perceived "evil-ness" of eating sentient creatures, using fiends/etc. to incubate their eggs, etc. Likewise, they might be intolerant of the Rilmani's neutrality, viewing moral neutrality as evil.

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Re: Cross-planar wars

This may be obvious (and probably not what you wanted when suggesting this theme); but, another angle on this idea might be to focus on the different forces trying to influence things at a points of contention.
E.g.
A huge group of pilgrims are relocating (to the planes, to another Prime world, whatever) and they are trying to decide on the form of government to install.
I could see the Arcadians (and/or Harmonium) showing up to push some Utopian ideal. The Baatorians showing up to corrupt some select charismatic figures to convince them to set up a dictatorship (as a strong ruler will be "good for the masses"). And maybe the Arboreans show up to push a democratic or libertarian form of government.

A new magic item produces bursts of intense creativity in the people who touch it. Perhaps some Bytopians that encourage ingenuity show up to encourage productive, helpful invention while some Acherons show up to try to twist the inventions into engines of war (arguing that the people have to protect the item from those that would steal it).

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Re: Cross-planar wars

Just thought of a wild idea that might be useable

The slaad or Xaositechs decide that to demonstrate the randomness and freedom of thier plane, they are going to MOVE Limbo's location in the Great Wheel and they start on a campaign to accomplish this.
This obviously goes against Primus and the other gods of order's belief of "A place for everything and everything in its place". This could provide motivation for the modrons (and probably even the rilmani) to send in forces to prevent this.
(And if you want to get twisted, perhaps the slaad are secretly encouraging such an invasion as it is an integral step in getting their plane dislodged).
If the slaad succeed (and who knows what the consequences of that would be), perhaps they will feel that they made their point and then the slaad will work to restore their plane to where it was

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Re: Cross-planar wars

For a potential Arcadia vs Pandemonium conflict
Above, I already mentioned my idea of Arcadia trying to "cure" Pandemonium and bringing back an infection of insanity to the orderly plane.
What if this was a plan set in motion by the gods of madness and bitterness that live in Pandemonium. They created a tempting target for "conversion", planted the seed of the idea in the mind of an Arcadian (think of an Arcadian who went mad in Pandemonium and was programmed like the Manchurian Candidate) and then the Pandemonites(?) waited for more victims to arrive.
The ultimate goal of the Panda-ites(?) is to cause one or more Arcadian cities to go so mad that they jump to the opposing plane.

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Re: Cross-planar wars

I'm forcing myself to try to find some useable twists. Bytopia vs. Carceri is tough.
So far the only thing I can think of is perhaps there are a group of Bytopians who believe that certain select prisoner in Carceri should be released. They point to the liberation of Prometheus as their model example.
So there are teams of Bytopians who try to use their inventiveness and diligence to find ways to liberate some of the titans. Of course they would be opposed by the Carcerians - some of whom would take the Mercikiller attitude that they are imprisoned for a reason and should stay that way; and some would take the attitude that their patron should be freed instead of the one targeted by the Bytopians.
The later group to accomplish their goals might misdirect the Bytopians to the wrong "bead"; they might send in spies to watch the process and then repeat it for their patron, etc.

If a bad titan escapes (or if the Bytopians free a titan who isn't as kind as they had expected) then perhaps the Bytopians and the Mercikillers will have to join forces to recapture the titan before s/he regains much power.

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Re: Cross-planar wars

""I realize I failed to include Mechanus/Limbo in my list, but now that I think about it, I could certainly see that as a common piece of planar warfare. On the slaadi's side, it would be unpredictable boilings-over during which a sizeable group of slaadi seem to just randomly take into their heads the notion of romping over to Mechanus and making as much of a mess as they can, while the modrons would organize parties that strike at specific objectives in Limbo to decrease the power of Chaos with calculated precision.""

I find it unlikely that the Slaadi would want to romp over there.
First of all, much of the plane is inorganic, and even if the Slaadi are capable of digesting metal and stone (which they might be, I don't know much about them), such things are surely far less tasty than flesh.
Second, the Slaadi are likely to find the very air about Mechanus to be uncomfortable.
Now, while the Slaadi do suffer from a certain degree of chaotic-stupid syndrome (mostly when it pertains to their stomachs), they still possess basic self-preservation instincts, and those instincts would likely drive them to avoid Mechanus and Acheron (there are more yummy things there, such as the Achaerai, but it's still a very inorganic plane outside of the battlefields).
The Modrons are only interested in the goings-on of their own plane for the most part, so they're unlikely to pick fights with the natives of Limbo.

""While it focuses the vast share of its attention on the Blood War, when it does strike against the good powers it tends to make the most efficient strike possible against the chaotic types, going for Ysgard just above the Good/Evil break.""

I'd think they'd prefer to strike Arborea to Ysgard. Arborea epotimizes the pure blend of both things the Baatezu hate-- good and chaos.

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Re: Cross-planar wars

Interesting thread.

I haven't yet seen a mention of a Holy War between LG and CG forces. It's been hinted at before, but I've yet to see any product really expand on it. If the devils and demons can trade punches as to which flavor of evil is dominant, why not the Celestials?

We all know goodness when taken to an extreme can tend to breed a certain haughty righteousness, and I'd like to explore a bit more what might happen if the various angelic forces came to a violent disagreement on how best to deal with evil.

[Celestia vs. Arborea]
Lawful Good Archons decide to take a more firm plan of attack against evil, but realize they are far too few in number to combat the fiends of the lower planes. To bolster their ranks, they decide to "enlist" aid from the Eladrins of Arborea.

At first things go well, but eventually the Archons decide the Eladrins don't fight effectively enough as is, and attempt to train them to fight in more structured military companies. The Eladrins, chafing under the rigidity of the Archon high command, grow increasingly dissatisfied with this alliance.

One fateful day, an Archon officer is found killed - whether or not he provoked the Eladrin, or the Eladrin struck out in misplaced frustration is irrelevant. The first blow has been struck, the damage is irreversible - and now the Upper Planes will be rocked by a Jihad no mortal realm could scarcely imagine.

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Re: Cross-planar wars

Regarding VikingLegion's idea, I could see this making a good adventure although it would probably curtail the jihad envisioned.
I could imagine that the pushy "drill sergeant" LG angel was killed by a fiend (probably a yugoloth or its agent) and then the eladrin that the angel was pushing is framed.
I could see the PCs investigating the mystery and calming rising tensions. The bad feelings and accusations involved would probably end the joint celestial effort even if the PCs are successful but at least the jihad would be stopped

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Re: Cross-planar wars

BTW Jem, your wrote
"Freedom vs tyranny, I'd say. Or democracy, i.e. "having a say in one's life," versus not having that control. Plato's Republic vs Machiavelli's Prince."

I understand what you meant but for the record, Plato doesn't advocate the ideals of democracy in "The Republic". He actually supports a ruling caste of "philosopher-kings" who lie to the populace about castes and staying in one's caste in order to maintain a cohesive social unit.
He envisioned it as a good thing; but, Huxley's "Brave New World" basically takes this same model and shows how messed up it could be.

Jem
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Re: Cross-planar wars

Palomides: Ah heh. I see your point. Actual republic vs. tyranny, not Plato's version.

-----

The reason we don't see LG v CG very often is that people are, of course, uncomfortable with the idea of good people fighting one another. However, I could see this one:

War of Liberation

A joint force from Arborea and Ysgard is going to the aid of Arcadia -- they will be attempting to kick the Harmonium out, by force, and naturally the Harmonium will resist. Naturally, this will do even more damage to Arcadia, but the paladins of freedom claim that the net damage will be less than if the Harmonium are allowed to continue; they've just lost faith in the Harmonium's ability to change for the better. The Arcadians themselves don't really want it, but a few voices are enough to fire up the Ysgardian war machine. Rumors fly that there is baatific manipulation going on as well. Develop to taste for your campaign; the PCs' role is presumably to stop the coming conflict.

And here's one more general, neighbor-to-neighbor conflict.

Colonization

Now that it's known part of one plane can slip over to another, multiple groups of powers are considering colonies in neighboring planes as tactical moves. (In addition to the traditional efforts to collect pieces of the Outlands, by turning gate-towns.) The Upper Planes tend to avoid doing it to each other, and most of the Lower Planes have bigger fish to fry in the Blood War, but there are some hotspots of this new tactic.

Mechanus <-> Arcadia and Mechanus <-> Acheron: the modrons tend to stay at home, but formian colonies have been spotted on both sides of Mechanus, seeking to collect portions of those planes to expand the formian territory in Mechanus. Vice versa, desperate natives of Arcadia are trying to settle Nemausus and re-consecrate it to goodness (not so much stealing other chunks of Mechanus), while Archeronian armies are salivating at the thought of invading portions of Mechanus and occupying them long enough to rip out gears to serve as new Acheronian territory.

Baator -> Acheron and Baator -> Gehenna: the devils are willing to attempt this off-plane, but since they are mostly confined to their own plane the method tends to be sponsorship: they offer nation-level resources to territory-holding groups if they agree to swear fealty to Baator, begin expansion efforts, and turn conquered populations to devil-worship. Several small-time operators have accepted the deal, and are beginning to get noticed locally. No word as to whether their holdings are becoming noticeably Baatorian.

Abyss -> Carceri and Abyss <-> Pandemonium: various demon lords are attempting to create local concentrations of demonic influence on their neighboring planes, and due to the malleability of the chaotic side of the Ring some of these attempts have already succeeded! There are orbs in Carceri where descent from the first layer drops one into a long fall until the portal to the next layer is reached, because this orb's Cathrys is now floating in the void of a layer in the Abyss. Chunks of the Abyss and Pandemonium have been swapping so fast under demons and unseelie that there are regions where the two are intermingling almost indistinguishably. What there isn't is any evidence that these ventures are turning a net profit in soul-energy, belief, or other resources.

Ysgard -> Limbo: finally, there is a movement afoot in Ysgard to claim some of the primal energies for Good; one justification for this expansionism often advanced is that the loss from Arcadia must be balanced. Thus, hardy souls from Ysgard have been forging settlements off-plane in the soup of Limbo, establishing warriors' encampments and Norse churches, hoping to pull some of the soup of creation into the sky of Muspelheim. Only a few are voicing much worry that they might succeed and bite off more than they expected; even the slaad are putting up surprisingly little fight. Perhaps they know something the Ysgardians don't.

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Re: Cross-planar wars

Jem wrote:
The reason we don't see LG v CG very often is that people are, of course, uncomfortable with the idea of good people fighting one another. However, I could see this one:

Yes, I hear you Jem, and that is precisely why I'd like to delve further into that concept. There is nothing more dangerous than a man (or group of men) who are 100% convinced of the righteousness of their particular outlook. This is sort of the flip side of the Blood War coin, and if anyone knows of any canonical material dealing with LG vs CG, I'd love to hear about it.

The "evil always turns on itself" cliche has been played out plenty of times, so I thought this might be a breath of fresh air. I particularly liked the other poster's [Edit:Palomides]concept of involving the PCs as mediators/investigators who can this terribly devastating Holy War from getting started - thus foiling an insidious yugoloth scheme.

I think it would be a deliciously tempting scenario to place the PCs in an alliance camp, where tempers are starting to flare and simple bickering is getting closer and closer to erupting into something far worse. I can see the Archons drilling in military precision - scolding the Eladrins and calling them lazy. All the while the Eladrins showing open contempt for the Archon's oh-so predictable and uninspired approach, calling them little more than mindless automatons.

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Re: Cross-planar wars

I have been trying to drum up a few ideas for a Gehenna /Beastlands conflict but I’m still fishing. I think the main problem (for me at least) is that Gehenna is so ill-defined in the standard cosmology. Sure it’s got volcanoes and many of us have tied in themes of struggle/exploitation/intimidation but how does that make it unique from the fiery regions of Baator and their tyranny?
I think Gehenna may need a visit from the Planar Renovation Project.

Personally, I tried (not entirely successfully) to focus on themes of brutality for survival in Gehenna. Not the will to dominate another (as I feel that is Baator’s job), but rather a rationalization for any evil as a means for one’s own objectives. This would start at the basic “survival of the fittest” level where one justifies killing another for one’s own survival (which it shares with the Beastlands) and moves up the scale to the Mafia mantra of “It’s nothing personal, it’s just business” attitude of wiping out rivals for trivial objectives like more money.
I liked the Mafia connection as this also tied it to the theme of slight lawfulness (in this case, lawfulness meaning being loyal to the crime syndicate group).

By contrast, I added more focus on the Beastlands as the realm of the “noble savage”. Whether such a being ever existed, the concept definitely did. The noble savage threw off the trappings of society (which they felt corrupted people) and had a natural report with the natural and spiritual world.
(In my reworked model, I tied the Indeps and their resistance to embracing the factions to this reworked plane).

I mention all this as I think the contrast of “noble savage” versus “mafia underling” (who allows evil because of his slavish association with a social institution, i.e. his gang or mafia family) seems like riper ground for a conflict than nature vs. bullies or nature vs. pollution (which I don’t think is currently associated with Gehenna).
To me, they both start at the same "survival of the fittest" point where an evil is needed to survive, but then split. The Beastlands don't allow any greater evils as they realize that other things they want (mansions, luxury, etc.) just aren't that important. Gehenna, by contrast, figure that the evil they commit isn't that important so long as they get the things they want.

Having said all this, I still can’t think of a good reason for direct conflict. I feel like I'm close to something, but I'm still not there yet.
I could see both groups trying to sway a community (e.g. a logging town turns into a conflict between the druids/elves and the greedy logger-barons) but I don’t see a good reason for the bullies of Gehenna to try to grab/convert the natives or territory of the Beastlands. And I can’t see why the free-wheeling natives of the Beastlands would bother with Gehenna.

Any ideas?

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Re: Cross-planar wars

I believe Planes of Conflict states that Gehenna's theme is mercilessness.
And no, this is nowhere near the same thing as what the Abyss represents.

The lower planes go like this:

Acheron: empty war and various effects of war (e.g. social decay from civil war, battle confusion, callousness, monotony)
Baator: Tyrrany, subtle deceit
Carceri: Imprisonment and betrayal
Gehenna: mercilessness, exploitation, deceit
Gray Waste: depression, apathy/hopelessness, deceit
Pandaemonium: Insanity

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Re: Cross-planar wars

VikingLegion wrote:
Jem wrote:
The reason we don't see LG v CG very often is that people are, of course, uncomfortable with the idea of good people fighting one another. However, I could see this one:

Yes, I hear you Jem, and that is precisely why I'd like to delve further into that concept. There is nothing more dangerous than a man (or group of men) who are 100% convinced of the righteousness of their particular outlook. This is sort of the flip side of the Blood War coin, and if anyone knows of any canonical material dealing with LG vs CG, I'd love to hear about it.

The "evil always turns on itself" cliche has been played out plenty of times, so I thought this might be a breath of fresh air. I particularly liked the other poster's [Edit:Palomides]concept of involving the PCs as mediators/investigators who can this terribly devastating Holy War from getting started - thus foiling an insidious yugoloth scheme.

I think it would be a deliciously tempting scenario to place the PCs in an alliance camp, where tempers are starting to flare and simple bickering is getting closer and closer to erupting into something far worse. I can see the Archons drilling in military precision - scolding the Eladrins and calling them lazy. All the while the Eladrins showing open contempt for the Archon's oh-so predictable and uninspired approach, calling them little more than mindless automatons.

If you really want to go this way, I can't remember the name, but I seem to recall there being a construct race created by the Archons that ended up warring with them (or maybe just fighting them) because they ended up becoming CG. There was a peace between them brokered by the Guardinals, I believe.

I wish I could remember what that race was called, but I think they were in Planescape MC2.

Edit: Whoops, I was a little off. Found them: the Quesar, from the Planes of Conflict MC. They were an _NG_ race created by the _aasimon_, not a CG race created by the archons. The rest was basically right, though; they didn't want to be servants of the aasimon, they rebelled, there was a war, then some gods in Elysium brokered a peace between them, and the quesar stayed behind in the marshes of Belierin where they'd been created in the first place.

Jem
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Re: Cross-planar wars

While not a war, precisely, I just thought of a good-on-good adventure or campaign idea for a rogueish group: a White Hat hacker-style organization that tests the defenses and fortifications of various allies. An ideal mission for them might be to slip in, leave a note detailing holes in your friends' security and recommendations for fixing them, and slip back out without getting caught.

They might even operate under ancient treaty that grants them immunity from prosecution in the Upper Planes, as long as they pass alignment-detection tests and don't harm anyone in the course of their activities. And return anything they take. ;^)

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Re: Cross-planar wars

Ah, and therein lies the dilemma: This group ends up finding some (dark) knowledge/item/etc. known only to the top few paragon celestials (and maybe the powers), who don't want the information getting out to any other beings in the Multiverse.
The fear being of course, (primarily) that should the "white hat hacker" group be captured and interrogated by say-- fiends or some such, that they might leak out the info.

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Re: Cross-planar wars

Or they could just fix the hole in their security. [Imagine if the Death Star had covered up that exhaust port]

Yes, I know that some holes can't be fixed or at least not immediately, but I couldn't resist being snarky.
The later case does invite an adventure scenario. The PCs discover a hole in security then they have to be put into the Celestial Witness Protection Program until the hole is fixed. It would give an excuse to place the PCs in a "boring" plane like Bytopia and deal with events and mini-adventures there (while working under a pseudonym) while trying to avoid detection by the fiends who want to pry the secret from them

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Re: Cross-planar wars

I was thinking more along the line of NPCs doing that, and the PCs have to... mediate or something or... somesuch.
Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but the secret that this group uncovers is supposed to be some deep-dark secret/closet skeleton/intrigue/conspiracy about a power or quasi-power with multiverse-shattering implications.
It could be as benign as the fact that some horrible ultra-evil major artifact is being 'safeguarded' on one of that plane's most sacred areas-- an artifact that was say, supposedly destroyed.
This could be particularly damning if it occurred on Celestia, because that would mean that the Tome Archons at the very least lied to the public (a very un-lawful good thing to do!)

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Re: Cross-planar wars

Sorry, I read it as the "secret" the PCs found was the hole in the security that they were testing. Until it gets fixed, knowledge of such a hole would be a valuable piece of information to the fiends, hence the need to put the PCs in protective custody until the problem is corrected.

But you're take does bring up the question of what to do with someone who finds out something dangerous. If an NPC found that the angels had been lying to keep something dangerous hidden, would there be a group of angels that would seek to kill him?
Probably a more humane solution would be to hire the PCs to get some Styx water for the intruder to drink. But perhaps even this solution wouldn't sit well with all the forces of good if they wanted to do this against the objections of the non-evil snoop.

Jem
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Re: Cross-planar wars

My interpretations would be:

A lawful good group would hopefully have laws in place regarding proper authority to classify information and, upon threat of that classification being broken, to hold the security threat indefinitely, albeit for as short a time as could be managed. A harshly lawful group (Arcadia edging toward Mechanus) might have laws in place governing the ability to declare someone a threat to the state and authorizing their execution or other neutralization. Good doesn't necessarily mean fluffy.

A neutral good group would weigh the ethical ramifications of various proposed solutions -- holding someone, memory-wiping, killing, simply letting them go and dealing with the consequences, and any others proposed -- and execute it as per whatever decision-making structure the responsible group has.

A chaotic good group with strong enough libertarian convictions might just let the person go and act as quickly as possible to make the information non-operative, or just reinforce their defenses against enemies making use of the information. Rabidly chaotic (shading toward Limbo) defenders of the homeland might simply off the malefactor and accept the consequences.

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