Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

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Schloss Ritter's picture
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Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

I had no idea my crazed ramblings on the old site were still floating around here: [url]/ps3e/node/]

This conversion was envisioned not that long after 3rd Edition came out, so there were no rules on playing monstrous races out at the time. I didn't take the concept much further because the others I gamed with were unable/unwilling to let me playtest the race.

With the advent of rules for playing monstrous races outlined in Savage Species (which I do not have a copy of), I was thinking that this could be balanced into a viable monster PC class. I no longer live near my former gaming group and have little access to rulebooks, so I'd appreciate all the help I can get. Smiling

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MakThuumNgatha's picture
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That is certainly an insane idea and there is no way that it could possibly work in a conventional DnD game. But in a combat lite planescape campaign filled with unconventional PCs it might be managable. ECL's and monster levels of the sort promoted by Savage Species are crap; and a swarm of cranium rats would be especially difficult to apply that method to since they would be unable to use most equipment. The Fiend Folio gives stats for three varieties of cranium rat swarms: lesser (~75 rats, CR 2), average (~150 rats, CR 5), and greater (~300 rats, CR 11). The lesser swarm could be used as the intial base (just put it in a party with level 2 or so players, playtesting would be needed to find an exact number); after that a leveling method could be developed involving the swarm gradually increasing in size and thus gradually gaining the powers of the greater types of swarms. This could then be extended well beyond the greater swarm. I presently do not have time to post the Fiend Folio stats for the swarms, but hopefully someone else will.

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Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

It worked quite well when I played one in one of Shemmy's one shots. Eye-wink

Our biggest problem came in trying to figure out mechanics for equipment. We worked it out such that while most equipment just wouldn't apply, wands, scrolls, rods, rings and some forms of wonderous equipment would be fine. Also ioun stones.

He treated such things as having a blanket effect on the entire swarm if one member of the swarm were to wear it. Slot limits still applied - for example: the reason that I couldn't wear three million rings was that the auras of so many rings would conflict, causing the magic to collapse and negate itself.

Of course, all the swarm really *needed* was one ring of invisibility. Eye-wink

Schloss Ritter's picture
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Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

I never even got to thinking about equipment, heh. I guess I just assumed that the point was moot.

I did put some thought into their weakness in melee though (since indiviual attacks would be tedious and nullified by any kind of DR). What do you think of the Mass Attack ability? I loosely based it on how Swarms are handled in melee. 1HP damage per rat seems a bit much in retrospect though.

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Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

Depends on the size of the pack vs. the level of the game. In my case I actually didn't get into melee much at *all* with my pack., I went with the psionic attacks and pure intimidation. (Take the ring of invisibility off after you've surrounded your opponent.)

Schloss Ritter's picture
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Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

Speaking of Psionics, where can the official latest (3.5) stats be found for the cranium rat monster entry?

Are they only in the printed Fiend Folio (D&D 3.5), as listed in the Planewalker encyclopedia? I don't have that either, as it's been a long time since I've played any D&D.

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Clueless's picture
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Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

The psionic version as far as I know is only in the Fiend Folio.

Schloss Ritter's picture
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Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

OK, I'm going to try and update the PC entry using the latest (official) version of the monster entry available, if I can find it.

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Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

Are there any monster/NPC listings online yet for the lesser, medium, and greater swarms? The only complete listing (including searching other sites) I can find is The Us, a unique spin on the greater swarm.

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Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

You can probably download the Fiend Folio (which contains their NPC stats) off of a usenet. That failing, we might be able to entreat Rip to type up their stats from memory. That failing, I'll copy their stats from Fiend Folio and post them up here.

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Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

OK, I rebuilt this from the ground up with the Fiend Folio entry and swarm rules. Here goes...

Cranium Rat Swarm PC
Adapted from Cranium Rat Swarm (Fiend Folio), with some re-wording from The Us ([url]/node/]) and some formatting from Monster Class: Couatl ([url]/node/]) on Planewalker.

[pre]
Level Char
(HD) F/A BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 Feat +1 +2 +2 +0 Swarm Attack 1d6, Telepathy 20 ft,
Distraction (DC 10+Con), Mind Blast 1/Day (DC 12)
2 +2 +3 +3 +0 (note)[*1]
3 F +3 +3 +3 +1 Mind Blast 1/Turn
4 Attrib. +4 +4 +4 +1 Telepathy 40
5 +5 +4 +4 +1 Int +2
6 F +6 +5 +5 +2 Swarm 2d6, Mind Blast 1/2 Rounds
7 +7 +5 +5 +2 Cold Resistance 10, Telepathy 80
8 A +8 +6 +6 +2 Sorceror 1
9 F +9 +6 +6 +3 Mind Blast 1/Round
10 +10 +7 +7 +3 Sorceror 2
11 +11 +7 +7 +3 Swarm 3d6, Int +2
12 FA +12 +8 +8 +4 Sorceror 3
13 +13 +8 +8 +4 Cold Resistance 20
14 +14 +9 +9 +4 Sorceror 4
15 F +15 +9 +9 +5 Spell Penetration (Greater)
16 A +16 +10 +10 +5 Swarm 4d6, Sorceror 5
17 +17 +10 +10 +5 Int +2
18 F +18 +11 +11 +6 Sorceror 6
19 +19 +11 +11 +6 Cold Immunity
20 A +20 +12 +12 +6 Sorceror 7
21 F +21 +12 +12 +7 Swarm 5d6, SR 23
22 +22 +13 +13 +7 Sorceror 8
23 +23 +13 +13 +7 Int +2
24 FA +24 +14 +14 +8 Sorceror 9
[/pre]

Racial Traits:
- STR -8, Dex +6, Con +4, Int -4, Wis +4, Cha +2
- Medium (Face 5ft, Reach 0) Magical Beast (Extraplanar - Outlands, Swarm of Diminutive [Tiny [*2]] Creatures)
- Darkvision 60 ft, Low-light vision
- Base land speed 40, climb 20 (Natural Climbers)
- Natural Armor +1
- Swarm Growth
- Hive Mind, Telepathy
- Swarm Traits, Swarm Attack, Distraction
- Automatic Languages: None (Telepathy)
- Favored Class: Sorcerer.

Alignment: NE, N, NG (rare)

Hit Die: d10 [d8 [*3]]

Class Skills [*4]: *Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), *Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), *Decipher Script (Int), *Diplomacy (Cha), **Disable Device (Int), *Disguise (Cha), ***Escape Artist (Dex), **Forgery (Int), *Gather Information (Cha), *Hide (Dex), *Intimidate (Cha), *Knowledge (all, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), *Move Silently (Dex), **Open Lock (Dex), *Profession (ie Spy) (Wis), *Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), **Sleight Of Hand (Dex), *Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), **Use Magic Device (Cha)

Recommended Feats (from Fiend Folio descriptions): Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Casting, Greater Spell Focus (Evocation), Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Penetration

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: None (see Swarm Attack)

Natural Armor: A Cranium Rat Swarm has a +1 natural armor bonus.

Swarm Growth: Being naturally prolific creatures, a swarm's number of members increases every HD/level. Each dice/level gained adds another 12-13 rats (25 every 2 levels) to the swarm, without changing the overall size of Medium.

Natural Climbers (EX): Cranium Rat Swarms have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened

Hive Mind (Ex): A Cranium Rat Swarm has a hive mind which is susceptible to mind-affecting spells. For purposes of such spells, the swarm is a single creature of the magical beast type.

Telepathy (EX): Cranium Rat "speech" is a jumbled mess of sqeaks and other noises only used to share emotions and other base senses within the swarm. A Cranium Rat Swarm communicates with other intelligent beings by natural Telepathy. The range is limited to 20 ft at 1st level, expands to 40 ft at 4th level, and maxes out at 80 ft at 7th level. [*5]

Swarm Traits (EX): A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernible anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. Cranium Rats are a swarm composed of Diminutive creatures so are immune to all weapon damage [(OR) ... Tiny creatures so take half damage from slashing and piercing weapons [*2]]. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage, and they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed. Reducing the swarm to 0 hit points or fewer causes the Cranium Rats to fall unconcious as a standard PC [*6], and damage taken until that point does not reduce it's ability to attack or resist attack.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects. A Swarm has a -10 penalty on saving throws against spells or effects that affect an area, such as many evocation spells or grenade-like weapons. If the area effect attack does not allow a saving throw, a swarm takes double damage instead.
The Diminutive [Ignore this paragraph if using Tiny sized rats [*2]] cranium rats are susceptible to high winds such as that created by a gust of wind spell. To determine the effect of wind, treat the swarm as one Diminutive creature. Wind effects deal 1d6 points of subdual damage to the swarm per spell level (or Hit Die of the originating creature, in the case of effects such as an air elemental's whirlwind). A swarm rendered unconsious by this subdual damage becomes disorganized and dispersed, and does not re-form until its current hit points exceed its subdual damage.

Swarm Attack (EX): Creatures with the swarm subtype don't make standard melee attacks.Instead, they deal automatic nonmagical damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed. Swarm attacks are not subject to a miss chance for concealment or cover. Cranium Rats attack damage begins at d6 and increases by d6 every 5 levels thereafter. Damage reduction sufficient to reduce a swarm attack's damage to 0, being incorporeal, and other special abilities usually make a creature immune or resistant to damage from the swarm. Swarms do not threaten creatures in their square, and do not make attacks of opportunity with their swarm attack. However, they Distract foes whose squares they occupy, as described below.

Distraction (Ex): Any nonmindless creature vulnerable to the swarm's damage that begins its turn with a swarm in its square is nauseated for 1 round; a Fortitude save negates the effect (DC 10 + 1/2 swarm level (rounded down) + swarm Con). Spellcasting or concentrating on spells within the area of a swarm requires a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level). Using skills involving patience and concentration requires a Concentration check (DC 20).

Mind Blast (Su): A Cranium Rat Swarm can project a 60-foot cone of mental anguish similar to an illithid mind blast. Anyone caught in this cone must succeed on a Will save or be stunned for 3d4 rounds (DC 11 + 1/2 swarm level (rounded up)). This ability can be used at will (standard action) once per day at 1st level [*7], increasing in frequency every third level, maxing out at 1/round at 9th level.

Shared Intellect (Ex): Every so often, the combined intellectual capacity of a Cranium Rat Swarm is increased by the number of member brains. Starting at 5th level, and every 6 levels thereafter, a Cranium Rat Swarm gains +2 to Intelligence to reflect this.

Cold Resistance (Ex): As Cranium Rat Swarms become more powerful, they develop a resistance to cold both magical and mundane. They gain Cold Resistance 10 at 7th level, Cold Resistance 20 at 13th level, and Cold Immunity at 19th level.

Spells (Sp): At the levels listed above (beginning at 8th), a Cranium Rat Swarm can cast arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level shown. [*8]

Spell Penetration (Greater) (Ex): A Cranium Rat Swarm eventually becomes naturally adept at breaking through Spell Resistance. At 15th level, they gain Spell Penetration as a bonus feat. If they already have Spell Penetration, then they gain Greater Spell Penetration instead.

Spell Resistance (Ex): Extremely powerful Cranium Rat Swarms gain the ability to shrug off outside magical influence completely. Beginning at 21st level, they gain SR 23 (their level + 2). This increases by +1 for every subsequent level.

Psionic Variant
If you're using Psionics in the campaign, Cranium Rat Swarms manifest powers as a Psion (usually Shaper) rather than cast spells as a Sorceror. They would choose psionic feats instead of magic-related ones, such as the Combat Manifestation feat instead of Combat Casting, Power Penetration instead of Spell Penetration, and Pisonic Focus (Metacreativity) instead of Spell Focus (Evocation). The bonus Spell Penetration (or Greater) becomes Power Penetration (or Greater). Favored class becomes Psion.

Notes:

*1 - No abilities for second level. I thought about delaying something from 1st, but that would mess up my progression. Maybe their Natural Armor +1 could wait until here, or their Distraction isn't effective until here... read everything else before making a decision on this. Also, this chart ignores the artificial 20 level cap put on standard classes, since Cranium Rat Swarms have a progression to 24 HD. Also, compressing this to 20 levels would be more of a mess.

*2 - Every source I have points at standard rats being Tiny, so why are Cranium Rats smaller? Making them Tiny (see Swarm Traits) would make them somewhat vulnerable to weapons and help balance out class over-powering.

*3 - Almost every other Swarm I have seen has the standard monster d8 HD, but the C.R.S. has d10. Another option to tone this class down would be to use the d8.

*4 - All class skills marked with asterisks (*) may not necessarily be class skills, but I thought them fitting (Cranium Rats are manipulative gatherers of knowledge). Some should probably be removed for balance. Unmarked skills are listed in the monster descriptions. ** = assuming opposible thumbs as sometimes depicted. *** = chewing through nets, plants, etc; malleable swarm trait.

*5 - The monster entry doesn't get Telepathy until 12HD, but who wants to play a silent PC that long to have it suddenly thrust on them. 80 ft is probably a bit powerful for 1st level, so I put in a somewhat "realistic" progression.

*6 - Changed slightly from standard swarm rules to balance better as a PC.

*7 - Or once per hour depending on the pace of the campaign.

*8 - Spell progression tweaked a bit down from monster listing, to balance out ability progression per class level. Unless I can work out a balanced way to get them to Sorceror 10 as in the monster listing...

Edit (4/25): fixed formatting with "pre" tag

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Edit: [useless comment removed]
Let me know what you all think, especially on the asterisked notes please.

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Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

'Schloss Ritter' wrote:
Also, this chart ignores the artificial 20 level cap put on standard classes, since Cranium Rat Swarms have a progression to 24 HD.

So that would be 24 HD and no level adjustment?

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Schloss Ritter's picture
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They would get 1 hit die per level as a normal PC, up to 24HD at 24th level. It's been a while since I've played any D&D, and I never had a good idea how level adjustments worked anyway. I'd probably need to dig up a copy of the DMG for that, but I think they may not need a level adjustment as it stands. I probably should've worded that note a bit differently.

Besides the fact that this is a man-sized swarm of creatures instead of a standard humanoid, I'd like to know if this seems balanced at all (too powerful? too weak?). Heck with the proper illusions, the swarm could even appear humanoid or be invisible if needed. I really need help with:
*1 - delay some initial stuff until second level?
*2 - the size issue - pros and cons of Diminutive vs Tiny creatures in swarm; which is less unbalancing for a PC?
*3 - which hit die?
*4 - which to keep as class skills?
*8 - is it possible to squeeze in one more sorceror casting level in there to get them to caster level 10 as in the monster entry?

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'Schloss Ritter' wrote:
*3 - Almost every other Swarm I have seen has the standard monster d8 HD, but the C.R.S. has d10. Another option to tone this class down would be to use the d8.

Most swarms are animals or vermin. Cranium rats are (from memory) magical beasts. Magical beasts, as a type, use d10 for HD. There isn't a "standard" monster HD, it's based on creature type.

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'Bob the Efreet' wrote:
'Schloss Ritter' wrote:
*3 - Almost every other Swarm I have seen has the standard monster d8 HD, but the C.R.S. has d10. Another option to tone this class down would be to use the d8.

Most swarms are animals or vermin. Cranium rats are (from memory) magical beasts. Magical beasts, as a type, use d10 for HD. There isn't a "standard" monster HD, it's based on creature type.

Ah, so that's where the d10 comes from - they are Magical Beasts. I hadn't even thought to look that up with my focus on everything else. I guess I'm still stuck in oldschool 2E thinking that (almost) all monsters get d8, the "average" hit die. Well, if they prove a bit overpowering, a drop in hit die type is usually one of the easier solutions to use, so we'll see on this one.

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Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

Hey Clueless, I know you said you had a lot going on right now, but you're the only one I know that's admitted to playing my original version of this. You said you'd have more time to deal with stuff soon, so whenever you do, can you give me some more feedback on this. I'd like to get it settled and set up as a new article.

Also, MakThuumNgatha, where have you gotten off to?

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Re: Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

*casts Resurrection*

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Re: Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

Okay, the conversion to these forums now won't allow the [ pre ] tag, and I can't Edit my post above. Here are my latest workings on this. Be sure to check the end to see what still needs help being fixed.

Cranium Rat Swarm PC
Adapted from "Cranium Rat Swarm" (Fiend Folio), with some re-wording from "The Us" (can't find link now) and some formatting from "Monster Class: Couatl" on Planewalker (/070326/monster-class-couatl).

Level F/A  BAB Fort Ref Wil  Special [note *1]
1     Feat  +1   +2  +2  +0  Swarm Attack 1d6, Telepathy 20 ft,
                             Mind Blast 1/Day (DC 12)
2           +2   +3  +3  +0  Distraction (DC 11+Con)
3     F     +3   +3  +3  +1  Mind Blast 1/Turn
4     Attr. +4   +4  +4  +1  Telepathy 40
5           +5   +4  +4  +1  Int +2
6     F     +6   +5  +5  +2  Swarm 2d6, Mind Blast 1/2 Rounds
7           +7   +5  +5  +2  Cold Resistance 10, Telepathy 80
8     A     +8   +6  +6  +2  +1 Sorcerer Caster Level (1)
9     F     +9   +6  +6  +3  Mind Blast 1/Round
10          +10  +7  +7  +3  +1 Sorcerer Caster Level (2)
11          +11  +7  +7  +3  Swarm 3d6, Int +2
12    FA    +12  +8  +8  +4  +1 Sorcerer Caster Level (3)
13          +13  +8  +8  +4  Cold Resistance 20
14          +14  +9  +9  +4  +1 Sorcerer Caster Level (4)
15    F     +15  +9  +9  +5  Spell Penetration (Greater)
16    A     +16 +10 +10  +5  Swarm 4d6, +1 Sorcerer Caster Level (5)
17          +17 +10 +10  +5  Int +2
18    F     +18 +11 +11  +6  +1 Sorcerer Caster Level (6)
19          +19 +11 +11  +6  Cold Immunity
20    A     +20 +12 +12  +6  +1 Sorcerer Caster Level (7)
21    F     +21 +12 +12  +7  Swarm 5d6, SR 23 (level+2)
22          +22 +13 +13  +7  +1 Sorcerer Caster Level (8)
23          +23 +13 +13  +7  Int +2
24    FA    +24 +14 +14  +8  +1 Sorcerer Caster Level (9)

Racial Traits:
- Str -8, Dex +6, Con +4, Int -4, Wis +4, Cha +2
- Medium (Face 5ft, Reach 0) Magical Beast (Extraplanar-Outlands, Swarm of Tiny [*2] Creatures)
- Darkvision 60 ft, Low-light vision
- Base land speed 40, climb 20 (Natural Climbers)
- Natural Armor +1
- Magical Beast Traits
- Extraplanar Traits (only applies outside their home plane if rule used at all)
- Swarm Traits, Swarm Attack, Distraction
- Swarm Growth
- Hive Mind, Telepathy
- Automatic Languages: None (Telepathy)
- Favored Class: Sorcerer. Levels in any class can be taken, slowing advance of racial class levels, but they usually provide little to no benefit due to racial weapon and armor restrictions and racial caster levels gained naturally.

Alignment: any N; usually NE, N, or LN (NG or CN are very rare and may be seen as enemies by their brethren)

Hit Die: d10 (possibly d8 [*3])

Class Skills [*4]: *Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), *Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), *Decipher Script (Int), *Diplomacy (Cha), **Disable Device (Int), *Disguise (Cha), ~Escape Artist (Dex), **Forgery (Int), *Gather Information (Cha), *Hide (Dex), *Intimidate (Cha), *Knowledge (all, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), *Move Silently (Dex), **Open Lock (Dex), *Profession (i.e. Spy) (Wis), *Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), **Sleight Of Hand (Dex), *Speak Language (-), *Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), **Use Magic Device (Cha)

Skill Points: 2 + Int/Level (quadruple at 1st)

Feats/Attributes: These characters gain Feats and Attribute Points to allocate every third/fourth character level respectively just like standard PCs. This is listed in the table for reference (not accurate if other character levels are taken).

Recommended Feats (from Fiend Folio descriptions): Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Casting, Greater Spell Focus (Evocation), Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Penetration

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: None (Swarm Attack/Traits used instead); never any gained by taking Class Levels in other classes or Feats either. Equipment not requiring proficiency (rings, etc) has the same number of limited slots as standard PCs (i.e. two rings total, one of other items). Rings can fit on tails, but it’s up to the DM whether to allow other humanoid equipment such as bracers.

Natural Armor: A Cranium Rat Swarm has a +1 natural armor bonus.

Swarm Growth: Being naturally prolific creatures, the swarm's number of members increases every level. Each level gained adds another 12-13 rats (25 per 2 levels) to the swarm, without changing the overall size of Medium. (This has no real impact on game mechanics, until extremely high levels.) [*5]

Natural Climbers (Ex): Cranium Rat Swarms have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.

Hive Mind (Ex): A Cranium Rat Swarm has a hive mind which is susceptible to mind-affecting spells. For purposes of such spells, the swarm is a single creature of the Magical Beast type.

Telepathy (Ex): Cranium Rat "speech" is a jumbled mess of squeaks and other noises only used to share emotions and other base senses within the swarm. A Cranium Rat Swarm communicates with other intelligent beings by natural Telepathy. The range is limited to 20 ft at 1st level, expands to 40 ft at 4th level, and maxes out at 80 ft at 7th level. [*6]

Magical Beast Traits (Ex): 10-sided Hit Dice. Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter). Good Fortitude and Reflex saves. Skill points equal to (2 + Int mod) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. Proficient with its natural weapons only. Proficient with no armor. Magical beasts eat, sleep, and breathe.

Swarm Traits (Ex): A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernible anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. Cranium Rats are a Medium sized swarm composed of Tiny creatures so take half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage, and they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed. Reducing the swarm to 0 hit points or fewer causes the Cranium Rats to fall unconscious as a standard PC [*7], and damage taken until that point does not reduce it's ability to attack or resist attack.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects. A Swarm has a -10 penalty on saving throws against spells or effects that affect an area, such as many evocation spells or grenade-like weapons. If the area effect attack does not allow a saving throw, a swarm takes double damage instead.

Swarm Attack (Ex): Creatures with the swarm subtype don't make standard melee attacks. Instead, they deal automatic non-magical damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed. Swarm attacks are not subject to a miss chance for concealment or cover. Cranium Rat swarm attack damage begins at d6 and increases by d6 every 5 levels thereafter. Damage Reduction sufficient to reduce a swarm attack's damage to 0, being incorporeal, and other special abilities usually makes a creature immune or resistant to damage from the swarm. Swarms do not threaten creatures in their square and do not make attacks of opportunity with their swarm attack, but they are subject to attacks of opportunity by foes. They may also Distract foes whose squares they occupy, as described below.

Distraction (Ex): Any non-mindless creature vulnerable to the swarm's damage that begins its turn with a swarm in its square is nauseated for 1 round; Fortitude Save negates the effect (DC 10 + swarm Con bonus + 1/2 swarm level, rounded down). Spell-casting or concentrating on spells within the area of a swarm requires a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level). Using skills involving patience and concentration requires a Concentration check (DC 20).

Mind Blast (Su): A Cranium Rat Swarm can project a 60-foot cone of mental anguish similar to an Illithid mind blast. Anyone caught in this cone must succeed on a Will save or be stunned for 3d4 rounds (DC 11 + 1/2 swarm level, rounded up). This ability can be used at will (standard action) once per day at 1st level [*8], increasing in frequency every third level, maxing out at 1/round at 9th level.

Shared Intellect (Ex): Every so often, the combined intellectual capacity of a Cranium Rat Swarm is increased by the number of member brains. Starting at 5th level and every 6 levels thereafter a Cranium Rat Swarm gains +2 to Intelligence to reflect this.

Cold Resistance (Ex): As Cranium Rat Swarms become more powerful, they develop a resistance to cold both magical and mundane. They gain Cold Resistance 10 at 7th level, Cold Resistance 20 at 13th level, and Cold Immunity at 19th level.

Spells (Sp): At the levels listed above (beginning at 8th), a Cranium Rat Swarm gains an arcane caster level as Sorcerer. If they have no class levels in Sorcerer, they can cast arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level shown in parenthesis. [*9]

Spell Penetration (Greater) (Ex): A Cranium Rat Swarm eventually becomes naturally adept at breaking through Spell Resistance. At 15th level, they gain Spell Penetration as a bonus feat. If they already have purchased Spell Penetration, then they gain Greater Spell Penetration instead.

Spell Resistance (Ex): Extremely powerful Cranium Rat Swarms gain the ability to shrug off outside magical influence completely. Beginning at 21st level, they gain SR 23 (their level + 2). This increases by +1 for every subsequent level.

Psionic Variant:
If you're using Psionics in the campaign, Cranium Rat Swarms manifest powers as a Psion (usually Shaper) rather than cast spells as a Sorcerer. They would choose Psionic feats instead of magic-related ones, such as the Combat Manifestation feat instead of Combat Casting, Power Penetration instead of Spell Penetration, and Psionic Endowment or Psionic Focus (Metacreativity) instead of Spell Focus (Evocation). The bonus Spell Penetration (or Greater) becomes Power Penetration (or Greater). Spell Resistance may be replaced with Power Resistance, if there is a difference in the campaign. Favored class becomes Psion.

Beyond 24th Level: A Cranium Rat Swarm gains no more unique abilities but continues to grow larger, increasing their existing abilities at the rates given. Around this point the number of Cranium Rats has increased so much that the swarm no longer fits inside a single standard 5’ square and may spill into one adjacent square (or more squares given enough numbers). Most swarms split in half and go their separate ways before this, though there are rumors of very rare large gatherings. They may be forcibly split by greater beings, possibly even their own deity or the Lady of Pain if they are causing trouble.

Names: Many as One, The Us, The Collective, Ilsensine's Eyes, Keeper of Secrets

[flavor text goes here]

Notes:

*1 - Attempted to spread special ability progression evenly per level over the 24 Hit Dice given for the Greater Swarm. For example, Distraction isn't effective until 2nd level due to the swarm not yet having enough members. Also, this chart ignores the artificial 20 level cap put on standard classes, since Cranium Rat Swarms have a progression to 24 HD, though they only gain an “Epic” ability of sorts after 20th level. Compressing this to 20 levels would be more of a mess.

*2 - Every source I have points at standard rats being Tiny; why are Cranium Rats listed as smaller (Diminutive) in the Fiend Folio? Even the Greater swarm is listed as having 300 members, the limit in one space for a swarm of Tiny, not even close to the 1500 that a Diminutive swarm can reach. Making them Tiny also would make them not immune to weapons and help balance out class over-powering.
[Diminutive alternate Swarm Traits (Ex): Immune to all weapon damage. Susceptible to high winds such as that created by a gust of wind spell. To determine the effect of wind, treat the swarm as one Diminutive creature. Wind effects deal 1d6 points of subdual damage to the swarm per spell level (or Hit Die of the originating creature, in the case of effects such as an air elemental's whirlwind). A swarm rendered unconscious by this subdual damage becomes disorganized and dispersed, and does not re-form until its current hit points exceed its subdual damage. Other traits are same as swarm of Tiny.]

*3 - Almost every other Swarm that I have seen has d8 HD, but the C.R.S. has d10 being Magical Beasts. Another option to tone this class down would be to use the d8.

*4 - * = All class skills marked with asterisks are only potentially class skills, but I thought them fitting (Cranium Rats are manipulative gatherers of knowledge). Some could probably be removed for balance. Unmarked skills are listed in the monster descriptions and are staying.
** = assuming opposable thumbs and/or prehensile tails as sometimes depicted.
~ = chewing through nets, plants, etc; malleable swarm trait.

*5 - the adjustment from Diminutive to Tiny (like normal rats) means total rats (25 / 2 levels) would not be able to fit inside the 5' square after 24th level. See “Beyond 24th Level” above for more information. Until then, number of rats doesn’t really matter to game mechanics, only for flavor.

*6 - The monster entry doesn't get Telepathy until somewhere between 6 and 12HD, but who wants to play a silent PC that long to have it suddenly thrust on them. 80 ft is probably a bit powerful for 1st level, so I put in a somewhat "realistic" progression. DMs wishing to restrict this further may require character to purchase Speak Language skills to understand and be understood by particular language speakers, though they should give them Common freely to aid in party unity.

*7 - Changed slightly from standard swarm rules to balance better as a PC.

*8 - Or once per hour depending on the pace of the campaign.

*9 - Spell progression tweaked a bit down from monster listing to balance out ability progression per class level, unless I can work out a balanced way to get them to Sorcerer 10 as in the monster listing...

To do:
- flavor text is needed.

Still need help with:
- Overall adjustments +4 now; tweak stat adjustments? Str usually counts for more than other stat adjustments anyway, so balance may be fine.
- Drop Hit Die to d8 since d10 may be too overpowered? Then again, they can never wear armor...
- Pare down the number of Class Skills? Most Rogue ones would likely be the first to eliminate. Or is the number listed not too many? It’s not like they have that many skill points to spend anyway.

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Re: Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

Disclaimer: I am primarily interested in seeing a viable class progression for a Cranium Rat Swarm PC. Cranium Rat Swarm the monster is not really a good playable PC and therefore recreating the stats of the monster is going to have a lower priority than playability. Some of the suggestions below will reflect that.

General: speed the ability progression. A lot. Cranium Rat Swarm the monster has HD equal to double their CR +2. A Greater pack is CR 11, just like a level 11 Wizard. It is ridiculous and unacceptable to hand out the same abilities to a level 24 epic character. Even if, especially if it has Epic feats. Because it has Epic feats and still manages to be a CR 11 encounter.

While we are at it, you should account for a different attribute gain PC use. For starting attributes, it's point buy or at least elite array and later on there will be attribute increases and items. Hence a starting PC using the ones you wrote would be expected to have something like:
Cha 18, Con 18, Dex 18, Wis 16, Int 6, Str 1 (penalties can't reduce you below 1), quite possibly better.

I would therefore consider reducing the size of the attribute modifiers.

Increase the range of telepathy. There's no reason why it shouldn't start at 40-60 and expand to 100 just like the fiends have. I mean, the telepathy isn't even listed for the lesser swarm. You are already handing out more of it than the monster entry does.

Also, I would give them Mage Hand at will to enable them to manipulate objects. Sure, you could say the rats are dexterous enough to manipulate objects themselves, but players are bound to try to exploit having a lot of creatures in the swarm - 100 tiny crossbows or something to that effect.

Also, some rule for the rats' collective lifting power would be nice.

Mind Blast: Instead of how often it can be used, the effects of the blast should be scaling with level. So a 2. level CRS would have a 10 or 15ft. cone that stuns for 1 round, usable 1/2 rounds. It shouldn't get to full power until after level 15 or so. I see it as something to fall back on after exhausting the limited use abilities (or when you want to conserve). If it is one of your better options, you’d be incentivized to use this one ability every fight of your career and it’d be boring. And the point where an at-will 3d4 round stun with an area of 60’ cone isn’t the Win button is pretty damn high level.

Psionics: Now we are talking. When you thing of Cranium Rats, you think about a swarm with powerful psychic powers. However, many people do not use Psionic rules and not without reason (it's a discussion for a different thread). I suggest Sorcerer casting equal to level (Sorc is generally considered to be somewhat inferior to other casters, so Sorc casting + a bunch of other things would probably be about equal). Since they're "psionic", add free Silent and Still Spell plus the rules for Display.

Of course, now that it's a regular full caster, HD should be probably scaled back. So, d6 or d4 and good Will save. BAB is irrelevant, it won't be used for anything. So we end up with a Sorcerer that has some close combat capability (Swarm attack and Distraction) pluses to a stat it isn't using really (Int), unexceptional Cold Resistance that I don't know what is there for and low SR. Looks decent.
___________________________________________________
Other things:
Many-as-One(Ex): The Cranium Rat Swarm is more than a band of creatures with telepathy. It is a band of creatures using their natural mystical abilities to become one entity. A pack of Cranium Rats is considered to be a single creature for purposes of all magic, psionics and other mystical abilities, whether harmful or helpful, originating from spells or magic items.

Just think about the implications of being immune to targetted effects. If you want to adventure in the Plane of Fire, you need the Antifire Sphere spell instead of a regular ring of fire resistance. Plane of Water requires a friggin submarine. They can't be targeted by Cure spells, or personal spells (1 target: You) so it can't even cast Expeditious Retreat, Blur or Fire Shield - all of which are on the list of Greater Pack. Also, read the flavor text again – it’s not a big stretch. Hell, the illustrations in Fiend Folio shows what appears to be bonds of magic energy connecting the rats.

Class skills: Disable Device, Disguise (how would that even work?), Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand and Use Magic Device are out for stepping on the toes of Rogues, the others are in.

I’m going to post my version to the progression tomorrow or the day after.

Schloss Ritter's picture
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Re: Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

I'll start off by saying thank you for taking the time to post a detailed response, as so few people take this class concept seriously enough to even consider it. That said, I am confused about some things, like it seems you are implying the class is both too strong (hit die, Mind Blast power) and also too weak (class ability progression). Personally, I was worried about them being too strong and made every effort to avoid them getting an ECL +x. Also, keep in mind this class is for D&D 3.5, which has a different power scale than 4e from what I've heard. So try and recall how things worked in the former if you've gotten used to playing the latter.

Foremost, I don't really want to totally rebuild this class from the ground up again. A few tweaks here and there are fine as I personally think overall it's in good shape, and I don't want the headache of recalculating every aspect again from scratch like I did when I finally discovered the Fiend Folio entries. Next, I'll take your responses point by point.

re: CR - "The number on this line of the statistics block represents the average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty. Assume a party of four fresh characters (full hit points, full spells, and equipment appropriate to their levels). Given reasonable luck, the party should be able to win the encounter with some damage but no casualties."
In other words, CR11 does not equal one level 11 character, but four. Therefore, the Greater Swarm is equal to four level 11 characters, not one. So, this means that class ability progression is fine as it is. Besides, normal PCs only get one, two, sometimes no new/improved class abilities on a given level, similar to the one or two per level given here.

re: Stat adjustments - now we're talking. Like I said, as it is, they have +4 overall, though some of that is maybe countered by the large strength penalty possibly counting for more than the other adjustments, i.e. Half-Orcs get two -2s for their one +2 in Str. Then again, Halflings only get a +2 to Dex for their -2 in Str. However, I am considering changing the adjustment total to +2 overall or even +0 if possible. For one, I think the CRS's high Dex of 17 in the monster entry is due to them mistakenly labeled as Diminutive, as Tiny normal Rats only have only as 15, so that's going down to +4. As for the other +2 to drop... maybe some of their Con bonus as a counter for the high hit dice? This would conflict from what I extracted from the monster entries though, but it still includes a high Str penalty (which may matter more than you think: see below). So, how's this sound?:
Str -8, Dex +4, Con +2, Int -4, Wis +4, Cha +2

re: Telepathy - I thought 20 ft would be sufficient to communicate around the campfire or whatever. Sure, it's a bit short for the battlefield, but I did that for balance. How understandable is the spoken word beyond that range anyway? Maybe it could start at 40 and increase to 80 at 5th level, but that leaves them with it before the monster entry gets it... unless they just mistakenly left it off the Lesser Swarm entry. CRS monster entry never gets 100 ft, by the way.

re: Mage Hand, lifting - I should probably be more explicit in the Weapon restrictions. Something like: "The rats writhing about in the swarm climbing about each other makes usage of even improvised weapons impossible, so Swarm Attack rules are used instead. They have to rely on Mind Blast and spells for missile attacks." Since the Swarm counts as a single Medium creature, they work together and lifting is handled like a size M with that Str. So, remember dumping a very low number into Str may severely hinder what the Swarm can carry about anyway. I only allowed certain magical gear as we don't want them to avoid items all together like some sort of Forsaker. The magical aura generated by an object worn/carried by the swarm encompasses and treats the group as an individual, just like everything else.

re: Mind Blast - I got the idea of scaling frequency from the monster entries where lesser (6HD) gets one every two rounds and the stronger ones get at-will some time before 12 HD. Also, remember that this ability allows a Will save against a not very high DC so it's not like a guaranteed show stopper. I can add a DM note about possibly scaling area of effect and duration instead of frequency though.

re: Psionics, Sorceror - yeah I left that in as an option, but kept the Sorcerer stuff in for those not wanting to play with Psionics. Caster level is drawn straight out of the monster entry and probably doesn't really need a change (except maybe for simplicity). As for those Feats, the CRS is free to use their character level feats to take them, but I see no need to give them away, again as it may be over-powered. They use V and S components to spells, just not the ones humanoids are quite used to, like squeaks and chitters and the swarm writhing about rhythmically.

re: Hit Dice, Saves - I don't know if scaling back that far is necessary, as they are still Magical Beasts after all. Think of this as more a racial class than a standard class. I did think of bumping up the Will saves, but the monster entry doesn't have strong Will (accounting for the Iron Will Feat). So I don't think a drop in HD is needed for that. Maybe they keep their minds a bit open due to their hive mind, so this keeps them from developing a truly high Will.

re: Base Attack Bonus - yep, it's not used in melee but actually it is still used for Ranged Touch Attacks for their Sorcerer spells. Is it a bit high for that? I'd like to leave it alone, as it's part of one of their Racial Templates, hence a part of their Racial Class.

re: Int bonuses - there's a ramp up of Int in the monster entries that can not be accounted for by the normal +1 to one stat every 4th level/HD. The only thing I could figure is that they get an Int boost every few HD to reflect the same in the previous AD&D 2nd edition version. Sure, it's more for flavor than useful, but they do get more skill points too, something the class is sorely lacking otherwise. If you have a nice enough DM to allow retroactive skill point gains for raised Int, all the better.

re: Cold Resistance/Immunity - just part of their racial makeup, like many other extra-planar creatures naturally get similar immunities.

re: Targeted Effect Immunity - yeah, I don't know what they were thinking when they put that in the CRS monster entries, except that killing just one rat doesn't do much. I see what you mean in that they should treat the group as an individual just like everything else.

re: Class Skills - yeah those were just the ones I was thinking about dropping. Guess I put some in due to Bard or Ranger access meaning they weren't just Rogue exclusive. Disable Device, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand were to be done with their nimble little hands and prehensile tails. Disguise was partly a joke referring to the joke theory of the Lady of Pain being a bunch of squirrels under a robe. Hide and Move Silently: sad to see them go, but the former would reflect the fact that swarms can move through spaces as small as the individual member, while the latter especially doesn't make sense with a writhing squeaking mass. Use Magic Device made sense to me because I think they don't gain the Sorcerer class ability to use Arcane items; they're only able to cast Arcane spells. Or does the casting ability allow item use as if you're that class? I do also remember an illustration from 2e of a Cranium Rat holding a magic wand.

(Note to self: Speak Language has to reference that it's used for Telepathy.)

re: Epic Levels - taking another look, I see the only thing new gained there is the Spell Resistance. The other stuff is just extended progression from earlier abilities, which I never believed any class should just suddenly lose when they pass 20th level anyway. I suppose I could find room for those level 21 abilities at 20th and smash other things down a level to make it a standard 20 level class after all. Also, remember anything over 20 levels/HD is free to take Epic Feats as usual.

Finally, sorry again for shooting down some of your suggestions. However, I do greatly appreciate the advice and look forward to more ideas.

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Re: Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

Very good work here. This is exactly how PS pushes best against its boundaries.

Schloss Ritter wrote:
In other words, CR11 does not equal one level 11 character, but four. Therefore, the Greater Swarm is equal to four level 11 characters, not one. So, this means that class ability progression is fine as it is. Besides, normal PCs only get one, two, sometimes no new/improved class abilities on a given level, similar to the one or two per level given here.

A party of four characters is expected to be able to get through 4 encounters of their CR before resting, i.e. a CR-appropriate encounter should take 20% of their resources. A lvl 11 half-orc barbarian with typical NPC gear is CR 11; with typical PC gear it would be CR 12. Consider that your swarm will not have most of that equipment, which on its own makes it weaker than its listed character level suggests.

A level adjustment is to account for the fact that things like at-will abilities are far more significant for PCs, who can use them constantly, than for a one-encounter creature who most probably will die in a few rounds. Consider that your swarm has this advantage, which in turn makes it stronger than its character level suggests.

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Re: Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

Hmm, I was just thinking. One must also take into account that this listing gives out racial abilities as class abilities, unlike a standard PC that gets all their racial abilities right away. So therefore, this entry may not be as on the verge of overpowered as I thought, since it has to account for both race and class abilities. Then again, there is a template and one or two sub-templates applied at first level, which would be equivalent to racial abilities for a standard PC. Yeah, in the end, I think the progression works as it is, with a couple tweaks (stat adjustments, class skills) listed a couple posts above this one, but I just need a play-tester to make sure.

Guess I could always start a play-by-post or join one. Though, if I were the player, I'd try not to exploit any possible loopholes in the design since that's how I roll. I need someone to put it through the wringer. Man I know I could have used some cant there, but I am so out of practice, heh.

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Re: Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

it would be cool if the swarm could send out little sub units that would function as a swarm of a lesser size until rejoining.
maybe a swarm could send out a team of three spies, for example, with a limited ability. kinda like a wizard uses a familiar to spy sometimes.
the main swarm would also be reduced in ability.
or maybe it could divide in two to perfom two missions simultaneously, each task overcomeable by the lesser swarms. then the swarm could unite to fight a boss or something.

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Re: Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

Yeah, the monster entries for the swarms can do something like this with the Merge Swarms (Ex) ability. Two Lesser (6HD) can combine into Average (12 HD), and two Average can combine into Greater (24 HD). I purposely left this off since it would add way too much complexity and be too unbalancing to playing this as a single PC with gradually added levels.

I also left off the Swarm Regeneration (Ex) trait, which is not as good as it sounds. Basically, if the bigger swarm's HP is reduced to zero, it becomes a lower category swarm and permanently loses half its hit dice. Lesser Swarms reduced to zero HP are destroyed.

Instead, I give the player a little leeway of having the swarm fall unconscious at zero HP, similar to a standard PC. They die at -10 too, but as PCs the swarm can be Raised as a single creature. This was the best way I could think of balance these aspect for use as a PC.

Note also, that they are free to take Sorcerer levels to gain a Familiar, just like anyone else.

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Re: Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

Man, the final exams are taking more time out of my day than I anticipated. Anyway, my version is mostly finished and I hope next week I will finally have enough time to finish the starting racial stats.

CR: An NPC with PC levels has a CR equal to their level. A party of 4 adventurers is expected to win a fight with an encounter with a CR = their level with no chance of losing and losing only 20-25% of their resources. A party facing an Elcounter Level = their level +4 (which is incidentally the EL the party itself has if used as antagonists) or a single character facing a CR = his level has an expected chance of winning ~50% losing close to 100% resources.
Look, it's a rule in the DMG that a level X PC is a CR X monster. The reverse is not always true, but we are talking about developing a progression to use as a PC. Therefore if you intend to recreate the monster, the progression needs to do that at level 11 (the monster itself seems somewhat under-CR'd, so up to 15 actually). To do that you need to hand out:
+14 Con bonus
other attribute bonuses for saves
Spell Resistance of 12+level
Swarm Damage 1d6/2 levels
A ton of bonus feats
Casting equal to level -1
Cold immunity
and other things to a level 11-15 character. So excuuuuuuse me princess if I only give a passing nod to the monster entry and focus more on what is iconic to Cranium Rats.

Stats: It is important to note that Cranium Rats won't be using their Strength for anything other than carrying capacity. The only physical attack they are allowed to use is Strength-independant, so are all of their other abilities. They cannot participate in pretty much anything Str-based. It is safe to assume it's their dump stat and as such, the player will put the lowest possible number in it (variable for rolled stats, 8 for point-buy).
My version is currently : -6 Str, +2 Dex, +HD to effective Str for carrying capacity.

Telepathy: my current idea is it having Close range. Only off by 5' for Greater Pack. Also, it explicitly grants Tongues as a part of it in all instances.

"How understandable is the spoken word beyond that range anyway?" are you kidding me? 20' is only a -2 penalty to listen checks, and 6 friggin meters isn't any impediment in RL anyway.

Mage Hand: there's more to adventuring than combat. A PC needs to be able to interact with the physical world.

Mind Blast: BTW, your table is off. It says "Mind Blast 1/Turn" on 3rd level. Anyway, I was assuming a level-appropriate DC.

HD: It's a consequence of my earlier suggestion to give them full casting.
BAB: Right, I forgot about ranged spell attacks. Even scaled back it'd be +8 with the same Dex, so a near-guaranteed hit on a touch attack anyway. Note that the monster doesn't even have ray spells above 1st level. The whole thing is mostly irrelevant.

Targeted Effect Immunity: It's fine on a monster. Not so much for a PC.

Class Skills: " I think they don't gain the Sorcerer class ability to use Arcane items" - the class ability is casting spells from the Sorc/Wiz class list. I'd leave the Abuse Magic Device to noncasting classes.

"re: Epic Levels" I do not understand this paragraph.

Quote:
Finally, sorry again for shooting down some of your suggestions.
Don't apologize for what you didn't do.

Status of my version:
Progression: 95%
Starting racial traits: 60%
Alternate rouge-type progression: in consideration.
Discussion on roleplaying a hive mind losing and gaining members: 15% (not written down yet)

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Re: Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one - what I'm proposing seems underpowered to you, but what you have seems too overpowered in some ways to me. One again, I say that I've been too worried about my adaptation actually being too strong, not compared to the monster entry but compared to PC classes of a given level especially the lower levels. Or maybe you're trying to give them a +ECL and start them out at maximum strength. Instead, I was extrapolating down from the 6 HD version to show what a level 1 (+0 ECL), 1 HD character would start out with. Then I set progress points based on the Average and Greater Swarms and filled in between accordingly.

I agree that the monster entry is way low on CR listed. In fact, a PC's level is effectively equal to its number of HD. If a 12 HD Level 12 PC has a CR of 12, then wouldn't a 12 HD Average Swarm played as a PC, with level appropriate magic items, and supported by his companions also have a CR of 12? Maybe I'm trying to think outside the box (and the DMG) too much on this, but this was the assumption I was going by when I tried to balance the progression.

+14 Con in 11-15 levels (that's +7 HP / level, retroactive)?! Does any PC get this much? Maybe with a huge +x ECL. I don't even know where you are pulling this number from, as the monster entry definitely has +4. Unless you only give them d4 HD, in which case this still works out eventually to 8-11 HP per level, which is much better balanced as d10 with +4 Con. I'm going to chalk this up to a typo that was supposed to be +4.

SR 12+level? Again, that's a bit much to start out at first level with unless you are adding ECL. Besides, even the monster entry eventually only gets 2+HD, not 12+HD, and it starts somewhere between 12 and 24 HD. I may be willing to extrapolate this down to 10th level (maybe 13th) and count up from there, as I was of the idea that only somewhat advanced swarms got this, kind of like other classes (namely Monk gets SR at 13th level).

Swarm Damage - so by 20th level gets up to 10d6 automatic damage after taking a Move Action? Even a medium Monk, master of unarmed attack, only gets 2d10 at that level (3 times if they can hit all attacks in a Full Attack action thus haven't moved too much). Sure, Rogues eventually get a +10d6 Sneak Attack, but they are a much more martial class than my entry and Sneak Attacks are not guaranteed.

Bonus Feats - umm, maybe. Count the number of Feats in the Fiend Folio monster entries. There is one for every three HD plus one for the first HD, which is exactly the number of feats a PC gets per character levels. Then again, compare to Monk, and see that Monks have the same number of abilities as my progression over the first couple levels, plus a couple bonus Feats. That class is overpowered though, but I may still add one at 1st or 2nd.

Also again notice that my progression gives out at least one or two new or improved abilities at every level. Compare this to Fighters who, while front loaded, then only get one bonus Feat every other level - with the same HD, BAB (eventually multiple attacks), skill progression, and worse Ref saves.

Caster Level - this is delayed on my entry in order to best reflect the progression per HD from the Fiend Folio monster entry. Remember, even 2nd Edition Cranium Rats couldn't cast spells until the pack got enough members, so keep that in mind as you try to keep with the iconic image. At least I'm not starting them at an Int of 1 with casting as a Wizard like in that version (or even a starting Cha of 1 casting as a Sorcerer), increasing the stat every couple levels. Believe me, I tried working with that mess before, and it wasn't pretty. And, thanks for the comparison to a certain uppity princess (which she wasn't really once you got to know her). Besides, I'm a guy Sticking out tongue

Strength - do you realize how little carrying capacity that dumping down to a 1 or 2 after ability adjustment gives them? I know this mechanic is usually overlooked by many DMs except in extreme situations, and I would consider this extreme. They can only carry 3 or 6 pounds before being encumbered, so say goodbye all but very few magic items (remember I gave them the ability to use many of these as a standard individual PC) and to carrying spell components. Also, movement would be easily slowed to 30 ft at best, while the encumbrance also imposes a Max Dex cap. So as a player, I'd be strongly inclined to put at least a couple points in this in order to not have to worry later. Also, I am again considering bumping this to -6 as in your version (though every Tiny creature I've seen has a 2 or 3 in Str, even Swarms of them). Also, why doesn't Str modifier affect Swarm Attack damage? I guess the rule uses the fact that multiple units are applying the damage to nullify the strength penalty of each unit?

Telepathy - Close range? You mean 25 ft + 5 ft / 2 levels? That actually works out as less than what I had listed in the long run. I will now probably give 40 ft at level 1 and 80 ft at level 5ish by the way. As for Tongues, yeah, I guess you could go that way, but I was thinking it was more non-lingual communication anyway, where they automatically understand what is being said. I just put in the option of requiring Language skills for DMs who balk at effectively giving a PC free access to any language that happens to be flying about in the area, thus cheapening language limitations on the rest of the party.

Mage Hand - why give them the free ability to manipulate things at range? They can already handle things just fine as a creature of their given strength, which would mean about as much weight as Mage Hand can lift anyway. Besides, they will be able to cast this normally as a 0 level Sorcerer spell anyway whenever they get spells.

Mind Blast - what's wrong with my level 3 entry? You mean that I don't list the DC? The DC advancement is implied already by the ability description below the table. I just listed the increased frequency of usage where appropriate. I guess to be consistent, I should not list the DC at 1st level either, heh.

BAB - the monster doesn't have a ray spell above 1st level, but there's nothing stopping a player from choosing different Spells Known for the PC.

Targeted Effect Immunity - yep, already nixed that idea.

Class Skills - "Abuse" Magic Device, lol. My only reason for allowing this was to let them use rods, etc with higher level spells than they were able to cast. I never really did clearly get how the skill worked, so I guess that point may be moot. Guess I was thrown off by the fact that my first 3e character was a Bard, a casting class that also got UMD. So, I've always kept falling back to the erroneous assumption that even casters need UMD to "Emulate a Class Feature" of a high enough level caster to cast the spell that the item uses.

Epic Levels - yeah, just ignore my rambling there, heh. Suffice it to say that I'm not happy with the way they handled "Epic" Levels in 3e or 3.5, and I was trying to ignore them in the first version. I figured out a way to cut my 24 level progression down to 20 levels after all, so the Epic rules won't matter either way now.

re apology - I was afraid that you might read my response as something other than the humble counterpoints I was trying to make. At least it's my intention to not try to sound like a know-it-all, and I wasn't meaning anything as a personal attack on your views. Once again, I appreciate the extended feedback you take the time to give, but it looks like we're approaching the subject from two very different angles at times.

__________________

Nothing to see here. Move along.

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Re: Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

Of course I'm not proposing +ECL, that defeats the whole purpose of a level progression.
I'm also not proposing the crazy things with the +14 Con and stuff. It's just this much Con is required to have the Greater Pack's hit points as a level 11 character. The alternative is gaining 2 HD per level. My point is that trying to reproduce monster stats is futile as they are not balanced or playablel.

Quote:
If a 12 HD Level 12 PC has a CR of 12, then wouldn't a 12 HD Average Swarm played as a PC, with level appropriate magic items, and supported by his companions also have a CR of 12?

No. It has low AC for level 5, very low damage for level 5, high HP for level 5, but medicore for 12, same for saves, and moderate saving throw DC for level 5 on special abilities. It casts as a level 4 Sorcerer (so 2nd level spells) with a base Cha of 13, resulting in low DCs.
With higher ability scores due to being a PC and level-appropriate gear, I’d say an Average Pack could be a balanced level 6 PC.
Bolded part: Never assume getting help from others. The only characters to whom the presence of allies is a balance factor are those who rely on buffing their allies. If you raise the party’s damage output by, say, 20, you are doing 20 damage regardless of whether you are making attacks or casting buffs. A fighter doesn’t stop being underpowered just because he’s a potential vessel for channeling the Wizard’s awesomeness – that’s the wizard’s contribution, not the fighter’s.

Another way. Let's assume a level 5 Cranuim Rat Swarm is in a party. They encounter a Standard Encounter. What can the swarm contribute towards overcoming:

A huge Animated iron statue.
A Basilisk.
A Large Fire Elemental.
A Manticore on the wing.
A Mummy.
A Phase Spider.
A Troll.
A chasm.
A moat filled with acid.
A locked door behind a number of pit traps.
A couple of Centaur Archers in the woods.
A Howler/Allip tag team.
A pit filled with medium monstrous scorpions.
A Grimlock assault team.
A Cleric of Hextor (with his zombies, the're his class feature).
3 Lesser Cranium Rat Packs.

Keep in mind that if alone, the PC bid against a variety of challenges of his level should have an average success rate of 50%.
Note the bolded part. Some fights will be sure wins, some sure losses, the overall success rate should be 50%.

A Level 10 Same Game Test:

A hallway filled with magical runes.
A Fire Giant.
A Young Blue Dragon.
A Bebilith.
A Vrock.
A tag team of 2 Mind Flayers.
An Evil Necromancer Wizard.
6 Trolls.
12 Shadows.

A Level 15 Same Game Test:

A Marut.
A Hullathoin (with its army of skeletons and bloodfiend locusts).
A Nightmare Beast deep in a hedge maze.
A Windghost in the sky.
A Yakfolk cleric with a party of 4 Dao.
A Drow Priestess with an army of ghouls.
A warparty of 4 Cloud Giants.
A Mature Adult White Dragon.
A Death Slaad riding a Titanic Toad.
A Cornugon.
A Gelugon and his Iron Golem bodyguard.
A Rube Goldberg series of contingent weirds triggered to a set of symbols of pain surrounding the artifact.
A pair of Glabrezus
A harem of 8 Succubi.
Twenty Dire Bears.
A dozen Medusa archers mounted on Hellcats.
A forest made out of lava and infested with hostile fire-element dire badgers.
A pair of Beholders.

You will see that the swarm as written by you has next to nothing against a large variety of challenges of its level, and the only ability that's worth using in combat is Mind Blast, meaning it'll spam this one ability every fight for its entire career.

Now other things:
SR is based on CR, not HD. It's 12+CR and the Lesser and Moderate packs don't have it IIRC.
Damage: 10d6? You can't possibly be serious. If damage is how you want to fight, at level 20 the minimum is 100-200 and every decent Rogue build I've seen exceeds 400 per round (counting the chance to miss). So if that's the route you wanted to go, at level 20 100d6 damage isn't going to be overpowered.
Also: Monks SUCK so hard friggin Experts are in the same balance category.

Casting: Again, it's 1 less than its CR.

Quote:
Remember, even 2nd Edition Cranium Rats couldn't cast spells until the pack got enough members, so keep that in mind as you try to keep with the iconic image.

The iconic image is Many-as-One, who I remember as a powerful mage. Other cranium rat packs were also mages. There are lots of swarm monsters in the game – the Cranium Rats’ THING is that they get so smart they become spellcasters and get psychic powers.

Strength: Oh my Hextor, you are serious. You are trying to use carrying capacity as a balancing factor. Look, the goddamn thing can just use Tenser's Floating Di*k to carry wands around and spam those, since nothing other than a Cloak of Resistance and a +Con item (standard for every adventurer) is of much use to it anyway.
And now we actually are reduced to fight tactics of an Expert. Great.

Telepathy: Oops, somehow I thought it's 25+ 5/level. Well, on the other hand there’s Mindsight (feat with no prereqs that grants Blindsight out to telepathic range against nonmindless creatures - I'm assuming that'd be the first level feat choice of every player).
Mind Blast: Please explain to me what do you think is the difference between a Turn and a Round. Because actually, as far as standard action abilities 1/turn are concerned, there is none.
Apology: I was just pointing out you didn't convince me of anything, as you apparently do not understand the premises of my points.
Oh and one last thing - you have the most pointless sig I have ever seen.

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Re: Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

Okay, I'm pretty sure I'm forgetting something. Anyway.

Click here to expand or collapse this section
Cranium Rat Pack
• Tiny (see text)
• Magical Beast Type (Swarm subtype)
• 40’ movement
• Str -6, Dex +2
• Darkvision 60 ft
• Low-light vision
• Hive Mind
• Many-as-One(Ex): The Cranium Rat Swarm is more than a band of creatures with telepathy. It is a band of creatures using their natural mystical abilities to become one entity. A pack of Cranium Rats is considered to be a single creature for purposes of all effects unless noted otherwise.
• Telepathy: The CRP can communicate mentally with any creature within 30’ +5’/level that has a language or is a rodent.
• +1 Natural Armor
• Mage Hand as a spell-like ability at will.

Sa a Swarm, the Cranium Rat Pack has the following qualities:
A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernible anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. It can share a space with any other creature.
A Swarm is immune to Bullrush, Trip and being forcibly moved in other ways other than area effects (e.g. Gust of Wind)
A Swarm cannot make normal attacks, including Attacks or Opportunity. Instead, it automatically deals 1d6/2 levels (minimum 1d6) Swarm Attack damage to creatures sharing its space. This damage is considered ongoing damage.
A Swarm of Tiny creatures takes ½ damage from slashing and piercing weapons.
A Swarm cannot grab and manipulate objects the way humanoids can (it has no hands). It also can't wear or use equipment designed for normal creatures.

Unlike a normal Swrm, a pack of Cranium Rats

Is smaller in numbers than a typical swarm, and has ~30 members per HD.
Occupies only a 5ft. square. At level 12, due to the pack growing large enough, it starts occupying 4 squares as standard for swarms.
Has a combined carrying capacity as a Medium creature with Strength equal to the sum of the pack’s strength and its HD.

//The swarm has many advantages over humans and the like, and two crippling weaknesses: the inability to attack at range and the inability to use normal equipment. This means it can't be a warrior class and when it runs out of spells it either has to sit and watch, or risk getting into melee.

Click here to expand or collapse this section
Cranium Rat Pack the monster class.
Hit Die: d6
Saves: Fort poor, Ref poor, Will good
BAB: Poor.

Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis).
Skill points: 2+Int modifier.


Level Fort Will Reflex BAB Abilities
1 0 2 0 0 Psionics, Swarm Attack 1d6
2 0 3 0 1 Distract
3 1 3 1 1 Mind Blast (15', 1rnd, 1/2 rnds)
4 1 4 1 2 Swarm Attack 2d6
5 1 4 1 2 Climb Speed
6 2 5 2 3 Swarm Attack 3d6
7 2 5 2 3 Mind Blast (30', 1d4 rnds),
8 2 6 2 4 Swarm Attack 4d6
9 3 6 3 4 Spell Resistance,
10 3 7 3 5 Swarm Attack 5d6
11 3 7 3 5 Mind Blast (30', 2d4, at-will)
12 4 8 4 6 Swarm Attack 6d6
13 4 8 4 6 Split
14 4 9 4 7 Swarm Attack 7d6
15 5 9 5 7 Mind Blast (60', 3d4)

Class abilities:
Proficiencies: None
Psionics: The Cranium Rat Pack casts spells as a Sorcerer of its level, except it has 2 more spells known on every level accessible to it. However, since it’s psionic in nature the spells instead of V and S components have a Display (a distinct smell, sound, glow (often eye glow), mental signal or a coating of ectoplasm that evaporates after 1 round) emanating from the caster and allowing to identify the spell in question as normal. The Display is easly detectable within 15’. V component is replaced with Auditory, Mental or Olfactory display, S – Visual or Material. Spells with no V or S components (including those with Silent Spell and Still Spell applied to them) produce no display.
The CRP casts spells drawn from the Sorc/Wiz list from schools of Illusion, Enhancement, Divination and Necromancy.

Distraction (Ex): Beginning at 2. Level, any creature that takes the swarm's damage is nauseated for 1 round; a Fortitude save negates the effect (DC 10 + 1/2 character level + Con mod).
// Leaving out the mentions of Concentration checks – moved to Swarm Attack which is now ongoing damage and already forces those checks.

Mind Blast(Su): A 3rd level CRP can telepathically assault its foes, stunning all in a 15’ cone for 1 round. A successful Will save (DC 10 +1/2 character level + Cha mod) negates this effect. This is a [Mind-Affecting] effect that can be used once per two rounds.
At 7th level the area and duration of the effect increase to 30’ and 1d4 rounds respectively.
At 10th level the duration increases to 2d4 rounds and it can be used at will.
At 15th level the area and duration of the effect increase to 60’ and 3d4 rounds respectively.

Climb(Ex): At 4. level the CRP gains a Climb speed equal to half its land speed.
Spell Resistance(Su): At level 10, the psionic energies surrounding the Pack start interfering with other people’s magic, granting it Spell Resistance 11+level.
Split: At level 13 the pack becomes able to split into smaller groups. It can split into 4 groups which still share the same set of actions (1 Standard etc.) but can move independently in different directions when moving. Should parts of the pack lose telepathic contact with each other, the pack gets hit with a -4 penalty to all mental attributes, 4 temporary negative levels and loses the ability to cast spells and use Mind Blast until the pack reassembles.

Next up: ramblings about personality of a hive mind inspired by Fire over the Abyss by Stuart Gordon.

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Re: Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

First, love the idea of a Cranium Rat PC, but since I use a version of 2E I've no particular input into the class you've got going here.

However, giving it -6 to strength seems inelegant to me; I don't see a Cranium Rat swarm managing to have a strength of 12 unless it was tremendously large indeed. Thus, it might be better to either give it a simple cap on the stat (off the top of my head I'd say a 4) or base its strength on the number of rats present. (the prior works best for character creation I should think)

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Re: Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

The assumption is that the PC is either using point-buy or an ability array and will put an 8 into Strength since it's caster and Str is its dump stat. In other words, any PC will have a Str of 2, period.

3.5 has no ability score caps. How would that work? What happens when I cast Bull's Strength on one?

Also, the swarm does grow stronger with size, effectively 1 point per 30 extra members, making it stronger than a human sorcerer with the same starting ability scores on levels higher than 6..

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Re: Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

>> In other words, any PC will have a Str of 2, period.<<

Assuming he is willing to accept a Str of 2 and doesn't instead have some reason to desire a higher strength ... either for legitimate rp reasons or with some intent of raking the system over the coals.

>>3.5 has no ability score caps. How would that work? What happens when I cast Bull's Strength on one?<<

Simple "PC Cranium Rat swarms cannot have a strength greater than 4" thus requiring the player to adjust his stats accordingly. And since Bull's Strength provides a Magical effect one would imagine that so long as the Magic was in effect the subject's strength would be improved ... magic is commonly used to allow PCs to surpass the limitations of their given form. (fly, haste, wraith form, etc. etc.)

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Re: Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

How do you think somebody could have a Str of 4 without racial penalties? You can't reduce your score below 8 with point buy, no array offers a score that low and on a straight 3d6 roll a 4 or 3 has a 2,8% chance of happening. Besides,

Quote:
Also, the swarm does grow stronger with size, effectively 1 point per 30 extra members, making it stronger than a human sorcerer with the same starting ability scores on levels higher than 6.
If somebody wants to play a very strong swarm, they can go ahead and do so, though not neccesarily on low level.

You are too stuck in the 2e Gyaxian mentality of preventing players from doing what they want because you don't like it.

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Re: Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

>>You are too stuck in the 2e Gyaxian mentality of preventing players from doing what they want because you don't like it.<<

Hardly. I am one of the most forgiving GMs around, so long as the PCs request is feasible. I am stuck in a 2E mindset, though, in that I don't believe in a minimum stat of 8 - there are plenty of rp reasons why a person might want something lower, and if you're allowing people to purchase their stats with a point buy system I don't see why a 4 should be impossible. (though I don't know the mechanics of the 3E point buy system, which you seem to indicate makes this impossible ... me, I'd use something on more of a 1-1 ration point buy to add more potential for extremes ... but that is neither here nor there)

If I were stuck in the Gygaxian mind set, as you suggest, I'd not even consider the possibility of players portraying something like a swarm of super intelligent, hive minded rats.

But, if you are going to make a race playable for more than just one person you do have to consider its shortcomings and the ways it might be abused.

>>If somebody wants to play a very strong swarm, they can go ahead and do so, though not neccesarily on low level.<<

Apparently they can potentially begin with a swarm as strong as an healthy human (12 max). Add a 150 rats to that - which isn't much of a number considering rats - and you've got a 17 at 5th level, 22 at 10th, and so forth.

Also, I noticed that at 12th level they take up a 5 foot space? At 30 members per level that is 360 rats crammed into 5 feet? Possible, I imagine, but it doesn't seem very likely. This isn't much of an issue if they aren't in combat and you don't have the entire swarm on hand, but when they are and you do ... (and hell at 12th level that is a 24 strength swarm there)

I'd be more prone to suggesting every 2 or 3 levels they take up an entire 5 foot space, but mechanically I'm not sure how that would effect things in 3.x edition.

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Re: Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

Before we can proceed, let me clarify something something. I believe there are basically two kinds of gamers: those who don't care about mechanics and powergames. When designing mechanics it's counterproductive to give any consideration to the former, but providing the latter with as much freedom in realising as many different character concepts as possible is a good goal.

Quote:
I don't know the mechanics of the 3E point buy system,
Yes it is indeed impossible to reduce your score below 8 on char gen by means other than racial or age penalties. This is a good thing because every Wizard would be running around with 6 or 4 Str, and many more characters would do the same with Cha.
Allowing what you propose would net them 6-9 extra points for attributes, which would be overpowered.

Quote:
Apparently they can potentially begin with a swarm as strong as an healthy human (12 max). Add a 150 rats to that - which isn't much of a number considering rats - and you've got a 17 at 5th level, 22 at 10th, and so forth.
I do not see this as abusable. Remember that the ability to utilise this strength by the swarm is limited.

Good call with the space and numbers. If we use the density of a swarm in the SRD rules, the correct rate of growth is 2 squares per 5 HD.

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Re: Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

>>When designing mechanics it's counterproductive to give any consideration to the former, but providing the latter with as much freedom in realising as many different character concepts as possible is a good goal.<<

Yes, unfortunately I do have to deal with power gamers in my group, so these are things I have to consider - no matter how much I want to encourage them to try new things. Keep in mind, though, that being power gamers doesn't mean they are poor role players - in fact over half my group falls into both categories - power gamer and good rper. (and the other half falls into neither, egh) In a way this makes dealing with the issue more difficult, because I don't want to stunt them as role players, but neither can I be lax when considering the potential abuse of the ideas they present. (in fact I mentioned this topic to one of my players and he quickly rattled off a number of ways in which he'd take advantage of the concept)

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Re: Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

Quote:
in fact I mentioned this topic to one of my players and he quickly rattled off a number of ways in which he'd take advantage of the concept
Can I hear them?

For that matter can he find me any way to abuse an ability to spread out to a density of 2-4 rats per square while losing spellcasting, mind blast and swarm damage (feat idea)?

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Re: Cranium Rats Swarm PC WIP

>>Can I hear them?<<

He is dealing with work for college finals this week, but I can send him a link to the thread and ask him to weigh in on the matter if you like.

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