Could it snow in Sigil...?

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Anime Fan's picture
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Could it snow in Sigil...?

I know the USUAL weather in Sigil is rain and smog, but lately I've been wondering if Sigil residents ever get anything out of the ordinary, like snow. I think it would be kinda neat if it snowed in Sigil (I like snow). Of course, any OTHER out-of-the-ordinary weather would also fall under this heading... So, snow in Sigil, or no? (I assume this would be rare.)

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Re: Could it snow in Sigil...?

Portals to the Para-Elemental Plane of Ice, Mount Mungoth, or the 8th layer of Baator perhaps...

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Re: Could it snow in Sigil...?

Well, anything the Lady wills ... I can't imagine it would be pretty snow, however; heavy flakes of smog stained sludge, staining clothes and making footing treacherous - the type of snow that counts falling on the unsuspecting among its greatest pleasures and freezing bums to death just another part of its job. (no great fanfare berk, just another bubber what got caught out late picklin' in the frost)

I would say - sure - any weather is possible given the right combination of belief, mischief, magic, xaos, and the Lady's good (or not so good) grace. The important thing would be to make it not only bizarre, but flavored some way for Sigil itself ...

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Re: Could it snow in Sigil...?

Yeah, the snow would likely be stained with particulate matter (from the smog) and contain acid rain. Same with rain.
I doubt the Lady of Pain is going to allow weather disasters however (floods, wind vortices beyond some pitiful dust devil, whiteouts, etc.) as that would cause a lot of disruption and chaos. (for instance, aside from the obvious water damage, a flood will result in backed-up cesspools/raw sewage/dead, bloated animal carcasses flowing into the streets, and possibly the escape of any monsters living in/trapped in the cesspools/sewers.) Thunderstorms would be kosher, however, and a tornado might be allowed to touch down on someone the Lady feels like dishing out some wrath upon (otherwise only funnel clouds would be allowed)
Supernatural weather (beyond the mundane weather that the Lady directs) probably won't be allowed, either. Though I suppose it's possible she would allow a "prestidigitation: clean" rain to fall upon all of Sigil to remove the smog stains from the architecture every once in awhile, and she might also cause other types of spell-charged rain to fall (like say, a "protection from acid" rain to protect the architecture from acid rain and caustic smog damage.)
She might also cause some sort of supernatural rain to fall if some invasive species (like the razorvine) gets really, REALLY out of control. I wonder, is it possible to create a bane property that only affects a specific species of a type?

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Re: Could it snow in Sigil...?

I don't like to think of the Lady of Pain controlling all the weather. She believes in chaos as well as law (despite her listed alignment in the Planar Handbook) and I imagine she leaves some things to chance.

Snow would depend on what conjunctions of portals are active in Sigil and in Sigil's sky. A door to the Paraelemental Plane of Ice in the clouds would obviously create a good chance of snow, as would portals to Stygia, Cania, or Pelion (and Ysgard, the Iron Wastes in the Abyss, Mungoth in Gehenna, etc. etc.).

Even if the Lady sets in motion all of the timetables for the portals (as opposed to relying on natural planar conjunctions to determine some of this), weather is a chaotic enough system that whether or not any snow actually reached the ground would be somewhat a matter of chance, I think. The Lady might influence the weather accidentally as well, the local conditions depending on her moods and dreams.

I don't like the idea of her using weather as an agency of her wrath because her wrath already has agencies (mazing and flaying), and I think giving Her Serenity too many superpowers risks overusing her. Of course, some Cagers are likely to attribute everything to the Lady of Pain, while others will speak of her only in hushed whispers or not at all, preferring more prosaic explanations.

Really exotic weather (Pandemonic winds, Avernian fireballs, storms of paraelemental ash, ghost winds, shadowstorms, Astral thought-gales) probably make it through occasionally as well. Not too often, though; Sigil's supposed to feel gloomy and polluted most of the time, not meteorologically insane. But I think being a planar nexus should mean that Sigil occasionally gets planar weather.

I kind of like the idea that semi-regularly (say, every five to ten years or so, or perhaps every century so that they're not too prepared when it happens), Sigil gets a monsoon.

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Re: Could it snow in Sigil...?

>>The Lady might influence the weather accidentally as well, the local conditions depending on her moods and dreams.<<

This is the way I tend to play it ... Sigil has a fairly standard default weather pattern and most deviation from this is a result of a change in the Lady's moods. (baring other external sources, such as the forementioned magical mishaps, etc.)

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Re: Could it snow in Sigil...?

Quote:
Sigil's supposed to feel gloomy and polluted most of the time, not meteorologically insane.

I echo this, the general weather of Sigil, smog, acid tainted rain, and so forth, is supposed to echo the chief irony of the place: that the most important nexus in the entire multiverse is actually largely a trashy dump that no one would live in by choice. This fits with the ultimate purpose of the Lady of Pain, to spread Pain and suffering throughout the multiverse.

Snow would in many ways be too harsh. The structure of Sigil means that importing large quantities of fuel for heating would be extremely difficult and so a significant and prolonged drop in air temperature below freezing would inflict considerable suffering and quite possibly death on some of the members of Sigil's poorer, cold-sensitive residents. The reverse, a prolonged heat wave, would do likewise.

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Re: Could it snow in Sigil...?

>>This fits with the ultimate purpose of the Lady of Pain, to spread Pain and suffering throughout the multiverse.<<

Pet theory of yours?

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Re: Could it snow in Sigil...?

Um, no, it's straight out of Pages of Pain, which, as much as perhaps some people would rather not, is a canon source.

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Re: Could it snow in Sigil...?

So is making everything second edition - it's a stupid idea and as such, hereby ignored.

Mechalich's picture
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Re: Could it snow in Sigil...?

Well, generally anything introduced in a canon source is held to stand until it is overturned by a later canon source. Thus, certain portions of the 2e planescape canon were overturned by the various 3e supplements dealing with the planes and ultimately, by this site's own 3E/3.5 PSCS (which is considered canon because planewalker was given official permission to produce it).

However, I've yet to see anything that overturns the significant components of Pages of Pain which ultimately only consist of a relative small number of things regarding the Lady (she's very much still a mystery at the end of the novel and the novel's central thesis is deliberately inconclusive). That the Lady functions to spread the pains of the multiverse is the only truly major assertion and is mechanically meaningless anyway. Troy Denning has certainly been given clearance to determine the fate of campaign worlds before: Forgotten Realms twice, Dark Sun once, and the Star Wars expanded universe repeatedly, so I would imagine considerable consultation went into the various revelations within Pages of Pain.

As far as weather the novel does support that the Lady's moods and emotions influence Sigil's weather, and I quote: "my dread wells, and claps of thunder roll through the Clerk's Ward. The strand rounds me again, and the Market Ward shudders with my trepidation."

Reasoning from such a basis one would imagine Sigil's general weather of overcast and drab vs. crummy drizzle to reflect the Lady's prevailing moods, which I would imagine as stoic and dour. More exciting weather would reflect that she had seen or experienced something that piqued her limited emotional palate.

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Re: Could it snow in Sigil...?

I haven't read that book but I for one fully intend to ignore that bit of information. Seems like a fairly colorless and rather literal interpretation of the Lady. I think as a symbol she can be a great deal more profound than that, so it seems a bit disappointing that there is canon material that says "oh yeah, she's just a big ole' sadist", especially given the general emphasis on philosophical perspective in the other materials. Ah well, I've never had high expectations for fantasy authors. Cheap thrills almost always beat out deep themes in this genre. :/

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Re: Could it snow in Sigil...?

If Pages of Pain is considered canonical, would the Blood Wars Trilogy be considered canonical as well?

I would hope not...

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Re: Could it snow in Sigil...?

It helps to actually read the book. The idea that the Lady is the source of the multiverse's Pain has nothing to do with her willingly inflicting pain on others (it's just something that happens), and the novel presents Pain as a stabilizing, incredibly necessary element without which the multiverse could not function. There's a great deal of discussion as to why gods both good and evil desperately want to control the Pains and why it would ruin reality if either were to succeed. I've read dozens of D&D novels and Pages of Pain is one of the very best.

Quote:
If Pages of Pain is considered canonical, would the Blood Wars Trilogy be considered canonical as well?

The nature of canon is that it will inevitably include things you despise and material that is lower quality than others within a product line. So while, yes, you can always ignore something, in any officila sense it is considered to have occurred and any author working from an official perspective will be strongly urged to work from that basis, meaning even elements from incredibly lousy canon presentations get worked back in through better stuff over time (this is most obvious in the Star Wars universe, where the gradations in quality from work to work can be astonishing).

Faction War was absolutely despised when it came out, but as 3e material continued to be released that incorporated its changes it was more and more difficult for those running PS campaigns to ignore, and many were gradually forced to accept it or to create some kind of work-around (as this website's PSCS does). There are plenty of other examples too.

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Re: Could it snow in Sigil...?

why do people hate the trilogy so much? i thought it was very imaginative and one of the better fantasy trilogies.

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Re: Could it snow in Sigil...?

Mechalich wrote:
The nature of canon is that it will inevitably include things you despise and material that is lower quality than others within a product line. So while, yes, you can always ignore something, in any officila sense it is considered to have occurred and any author working from an official perspective will be strongly urged to work from that basis, meaning even elements from incredibly lousy canon presentations get worked back in through better stuff over time (this is most obvious in the Star Wars universe, where the gradations in quality from work to work can be astonishing).

Luckily, DMs aren't working from an official perspective. Laughing out loud

Also, on topic: In the Cage's short section on Sigilian weather specifically mentions snow, if I remember correctly.

Edit: Yep, page 13 implies that Sigil can get both snow and sleet.

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Re: Could it snow in Sigil...?

My feeling is something like this:

It rarely snows in Sigil.

My fair lady could stop it or cause it either consciously or even unconsciously but I don't think that she does the former except, e.g., in cases where she closes the whole damn shop, and that indirectly stops the flurries or whatever else.

At all events, we might as well say then that the weather in Sigil is a matter of the probability of certain events overlapping with each other.

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Re: Could it snow in Sigil...?

How many of you were here for the fatedrifts of Hashkar 86? That was pretty wild. It seemed just like snow, but I don't think it was the regular frozen water from the sky variety. From what I saw and heard, the best explanation is that it was some kind of fluffy crystalline improbability. I've heard people blame it alternately on the Guvners and xaosmen. Hard to say with that sort of thing.

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Re: Could it snow in Sigil...?

Mechalich wrote:
It helps to actually read the book. The idea that the Lady is the source of the multiverse's Pain has nothing to do with her willingly inflicting pain on others (it's just something that happens), and the novel presents Pain as a stabilizing, incredibly necessary element without which the multiverse could not function. There's a great deal of discussion as to why gods both good and evil desperately want to control the Pains and why it would ruin reality if either were to succeed. I've read dozens of D&D novels and Pages of Pain is one of the very best.

With the disclaimer that I haven't read the series, I simply think that this seems a fairly reductive role to place such a central and enigmatic figure in Planescape. I've always imagined her as occupying the role of a metaphysical litmus test in the setting, so I've been of the opinion that her role should either be left undefined, or defined in a truly noteworthy fashion. The Lady is both seperate and central, so it makes sense that any explanation for her should be beyond the typical mythologizing of Gods. Pain is an interesting philosophical problem, but is only really of major significance philosophically from the perspective of monotheistic religions that envision a good or benevolent god. In a setting like Planescape, explaining the role of pain in the multiverse seems more suitable a role for a major diety since the problem in a pantheistic world is more one of causal consideration than it is metaphysical.

The best non-canon idea I've heard trying to summarize the role of the Lady was to sort of make her embody aspects of Nietzsche's works, specifically Thus Spoke Zarathustra (you could also throw in some Goethe and some Wagner while you are at it, to really play of the Ring angle). I think that is appropriate simply because Nietzsche's philosophy was both transcendent, in that it went beyond both deism and nihilism, and it was a bit paradoxical in its search for an immortal creative freedom in a world bounded by the prison of mortality. Is the Lady the multiverse's only Ubermensch, or a prisoner of her own nature? Is there a distinction between a thirst for creative freedom and a thirst for power? Is the soul truly immortal, or is time the ultimate tyrant? I guess I like an answer that makes you ask even bigger questions, or perhaps that gives some insight into something greater, and I feel like the Lady is a perfect vehicle for phrasing those kinds of questions.

The problem of suffering is an oldie and a goodie, I just hope that wasn't intended to be the extent of the explanation for the Lady. I haven't read the book, so I guess I can't really judge, but that was why I voiced my discontent.

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Re: Could it snow in Sigil...?

O.k. so YES there could be snow, but unfortunately likely acid snow rather than the white fluffy make-a-snowball kind! Though of course ACID snow fits in more with the general feel of the city (Hmm... Tan'nari and Battezu are both vunerable to acid... it'd be pretty funny watching a bunch of Fiends kill each other with snowballs!) Well, that answered my question, anyway... guess the kids won't be going out to play in THAT!

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