On Conflicting Alignments on the Deities

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mos_anted's picture
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On Conflicting Alignments on the Deities

While perusing my copy of Deities and Demigods (3E) I've noticed, as no doubt most have, the conflicting alignments of several of the gods presented from Real Life Pantheons. What is the general take in this issue? And for those in the know of said mythology, what is the most "correct" interpretation? I'm especially interested in Set (LE vs CE) and Tyr (LN vs LG).

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Re: On Conflicting Alignments on the Deities

Set is generally placed on Baator, so I'd say he's probably LE.

Tyr's alignment difference (I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment) may have to do with his Faerunian vs. Norse appelations. In which case both are correct, but the one given in Deities& Demigods/Legends&Lore would be the general norse one.

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Re: On Conflicting Alignments on the Deities

Officially, I'd agree that Set is LE due to the frequent mentions of him living on Baator.
But I actually created a seperate plane for the Egyptian underworld that I placed more on the chaotic side of the wheel; so for me, I was happy to make him CE.

If you are talking the alignment for Set based on the history of Egypt, there is a lot of room for interpretation. Set was originally a good god but after Egypt was invaded and the invaders embraced Set. After the invaders were expelled, Set took on a lot more evil connotations in the collective myths of the Egyptians.
From what I've read, I would probably have made post-invasion Set CE or NE. But that's subjective

Using the same subjective criteria for Tyr, I'd place him as LG. To me his defining moment was when he placed his hand in the mouth of the Fernis Wolf in order to have it shackled and stop its path of destruction. Since the pact was broken, the Wolf bit off his hand. In my mind, this qualifies as a noble sacrifice which would bump him into LG over LN. (Unless he was also tricked by the other gods' promises that they wouldn't try to bind the Wolf; it's been a while since I read that myth).

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Re: On Conflicting Alignments on the Deities

In general, it's very difficult to fit historical gods neatly into the alignment system. Many gods from real-world mythology perform good deeds and wicked deeds, and perform deeds that uphold order and other deeds that undermine it. Set is an excellent case in point.

Set rides with Ra through the underworld every night to help him defeat Apep, and in this way he's definitely an upholder of cosmic order. Set, as the older son (he ripped his way out of Nut's womb early), actually had the better legal claim to the throne than Osiris did, and after Osiris's death Ra agreed that Set was the rightful successor; Horus had to trick Set out of it. As god of the desert, Set symbolizes the harsh limits put upon the bedlam of nature's fertility. Finally, Set represented the government during the period when he was patron of Lower Egypt and during the reign of the Hyksos kings over all of Egypt.

On the other hand, Set was a god of storms and wild beasts, which is arguably chaotic, and his role as the murderer of Osiris and the child who couldn't wait until his appointed time to escape the womb establishes him as something of a rule-breaker (or, at least, rule-stretcher). I think seeing him as lawful evil is reasonable, though there are arguments for chaotic evil, chaotic neutral, lawful neutral, or true neutral depending on what era of Set's mythology you're talking about.

3rd edition Deities & Demigods was a major revision from what had come before in the game, though. Planescape and Forgotten Realms (and the original Deities & Demigods and 2nd edition Legends & Lore) have him as lawful evil, and when in doubt I generally lean toward Planescape.

1e Deities & Demigods simply stated that gods don't always behave according to their listed alignment, and aren't required to.

Tyr was lawful good in 2nd edition whether he was being worshiped in the Forgotten Realms setting or not. I'm fine with that interpretation, for the sake of maximum continuity.

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Re: On Conflicting Alignments on the Deities

Real life deities are also difficult to assign alignment to because they often tend to represent natural phenomena, which are neither good or evil. This is especially true in animism, as well as Aztec mythology, where the deities represent both opposites of a portfolio (e.g. the deity St. Muerte is based on is the Goddess of both protection and murder. There's another Aztec goddess whose name escapes me at the moment who is the goddess of both birth and death.)

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Re: On Conflicting Alignments on the Deities

Yeah, I remember the Aztec/Olman pantheon got labeled almost entirely as evil, with the only nonevil god beign Quetzalcoatl...

The main issue I had with Set was that I felt him pretty much linked to Baator, and while several things I've read online would support a shift to Chaotic alignment, I don't think it would fly. Baatezu might be ok with NE gods, but I very much doubt they'd tolerate a Chaotic beign in their realm.

For other deities, I don't mind the changes too much, as most represent usually 1 step, or at least an alignment not too much at odds with previous PS canon (ie Tyr, Ra, Zeus).

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Re: On Conflicting Alignments on the Deities

Hyena of Ice wrote:
There's another Aztec goddess whose name escapes me at the moment who is the goddess of both birth and death.)

Much like Pharasma, who is neutral.

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Re: On Conflicting Alignments on the Deities

Bob the Efreet wrote:
Much like Pharasma, who is neutral.

Sure, and generally that's a safe place to go with dichotomous deities, but the Aztecs are really pretty crazy. Like, Tlaloc demands his worshipers sacrifice babies and torture youths to placate him, but at the same time he's built up this idyllic paradise for victims of accidental drowning. D&D convention has it that good deeds don't really make up for atrociously evil deeds, so he's listed as lawful evil... but that doesn't really capture how his worshipers think of him. He's the benevolent bringer of rain, He Who Makes Things Grow, essential to the survival of humanity and all of nature.

And you see that kind of dichotomy with most Aztec deities. Like, Quetzalcoatl was tricked into embarrassing himself, so he razed an entire city to the ground to make sure there were no witnesses. Yet he's often held as one of the "good guy" in the Aztec pantheon. And the Olympians are really no better. Artemis was the goddess women prayed to to ease the pain of childbirth, but she murdered men who accidentally saw her naked, and she kills Bellerophon's daughter just because the gods were mad at Bellerophon, and she kills Ariadne because Dionysus was mad at her, and she kills Oeneus because he failed to sacrifice to her properly, and the list goes on and on. And yet she's good in many respects, an easer of pain and a protector. You can call her neutral, but it doesn't really encapsulate what she means. Hera was horrible to her husband's bastards, but she was also the goddess of marriage and the patron of the hero Jason.

It comes down to this: the gods, all of the gods, are good by definition. They define what goodness is for their cultures. They're the highest authority when it comes to morality, and enforce their view of right and wrong ruthlessly. And everything that's good comes from them. Everything you like, everything you value and honor, descends from the gods (even if it requires a divine trickster or cultural hero to steal it from them). But mortals know they live in a capricious universe in which even good people suffer inexplicably, so the gods must be just as capricious, and seemingly wicked at times. But all that capriciousness and wickedness doesn't mean the gods aren't good.

In Planescape, of course, there is a morality higher than the gods in the form of the planes themselves, which define morality objectively regardless of what the gods say or do. An action is good not because Zeus says it is, but because it resonates with the themes of the plane of Elysium. An action is evil not because Zeus declares it anathema, but because it resonates with the themes of the Gray Waste. But the gods who dwell on the planes are still maddeningly contradictory. While they may fit better on one plane than another, they can live wherever they want. They dwell on the planes, but they aren't of them. And the cultures who worship them and believe in them probably pay more attention to what their gods say than what planar geography says. So what if the plane of Arborea thinks Artemis is being evil? The Greeks know she's good. And this is true for Hextor and Takhisis and Ilsensine and Maglubiyet and Kali and Hecate as well.

So it's complicated. We can argue about what alignment a deity fits best in D&D terms, but there's often going to be a lot of mixed evidence and several possible interpretations. And in the end, it doesn't matter much. I'm fine with calling Gruumsh chaotic evil but having him still live on Acheron. He happens to be mostly chaotic evil but he's a god, not a demon, and he doesn't personify that alignment. He's as complex and contradictory as a mortal, or more so. To the orcs, he personifies cosmic order, even if that order is wild and untamed by the standards of the planes at large.

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Re: On Conflicting Alignments on the Deities

Alot of it has to do, IMO, with the Values Dissonance between different cultures/times. Taking the Aztec pantheon as an example, the reason Quetzalcoatl is usually cast as the "good guy" is that he was the only god who did not demand human sacrifice, while the rest get labeled as evil because they did. From the Aztec POV, sacrifice wasn't evil, because according to their creation myths, the gods had sacrificed themselves to create the world and give life to man, and they required the blood from sacrifices to continue "functioning", so they viewed sacrifice as the least they could do for their gods. Of course, from our current POV, it's an abhorrent practice.
In the end, it's the problem from using an objective morality system like the 9-point alignment from classic D&D. Then again, I love it, and wouldn't change it for anything :>

Hyena of Ice's picture
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Re: On Conflicting Alignments on the Deities

Sure, and generally that's a safe place to go with dichotomous deities, but the Aztecs are really pretty crazy. Like, Tlaloc demands his worshipers sacrifice babies and torture youths to placate him, but at the same time he's built up this idyllic paradise for victims of accidental drowning. D&D convention has it that good deeds don't really make up for atrociously evil deeds, so he's listed as lawful evil... but that doesn't really capture how his worshipers think of him.

Another thing to bear in mind that in Aztec mythology, victims of sacrifice were the only group other than the war-dead and women who died in labor (as birth was seen as a battle for the woman) were the only groups who could enter heaven. The young maidens who were sacrificed were generally regarded as heroes in their community, even if they did not go out willingly. I'm guessing similar mindsets were present in other cultures where human sacrifice was practiced, as well (this certainly seems to be the case in the Chinook story explaining the origin of Multnomah Falls. For the unaware, it states that the tribe was threatened by ongoing natural disasters of a type I cannot recall at this moment. The medicine man determined that the only way to stop the disasters was by sacrificing the chieftain's only daughter. The daughter went out willingly, by herself, and flung herself off a hill. Upon sacrificing herself, Multnomah Falls was born. It is said that she became a guardian spirit of the Multnomah clan after that, and that sometimes, if you look closely, you can see her figure smiling back at you from behind the waterfall. It's interesting to note that there is a stone platform behind the falls, about 20 feet off the ground which you can reach with some difficulty. Access to the base of the falls was shut down around 10 years ago after too many teens died as a result of climbing that platform-- many were stupid enough to jump into the stream below, or worse, tried to leap into the waterfall itself. Others slipped on the algae-coated ridge that makes up the platform)

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