Hi,
Do we have 3.x canon on how magic and such works at the base of the Spire? For the moment I'm basically just assuming that it's a more-or-less permanent Antimagic Field - blocks all spells and supernatural abilities, nullifies magical items, but doesn't prevent the use of extraordinary abilities or the movement of golems. Thought I'd ask first, though. Thanks!
Ninth Ring - First Layer, No Noticeable Effect
Eigth Ring - Second Layer, Ninth Level Spells Anulled
Seventh Ring - Third Layer, Eigth Level Spells Anulled
Sixth Ring - Fourth Layer, Seventh Level Spells Anulled, Non-Diety Psionics
Fifth Ring - Fifth Layer, Sixth Level Spells and All Illusions Null, No Level Draining Effects
Fourth Ring - Sixth Layer, Fifth Level Spells Anulled, Poison Ineffective
Third Ring - Seventh Layer, Fourth Level Spells Anulled, No Astral Conduits, Demi-Godly Powers Cancelled
Second Ring - Eigth Layer, Third Level Spells Anulled, No Astral Connections, Lesser Godly Powers Cancelled
First Ring - Ninth Layer, Second Level Spells Anulled, Intermediate Godly Powers Cancelled
Spire - Tenth Layer, All Magic Null, No Godly Powers
How do the 2E conditions around the Spire and the 3E conditions around the Spire compare? Can someone check on this and post a comparison? We need to make a decision as to what to support in order to start placing encounters.
3e MotP:
1200 miles: no changes
1100 miles: 9th level spells impeded
1000 miles: 8th-9th level spells impeded
900 miles: 7th-9th level spells impeded, 9th level spells limited, all creatures immune to poison
800 miles: 6th-9th level spells impeded, 8th-9th level spells limited, psionic spell-like abilities do not function
700 miles: 5th-9th level spells impeded, 7th-9th level spells limited, positive and negative energy can't be channelled
600 miles: 4th-9th level spells impeded, 6th-9th level spells limited, supernatural abilities don't function
500 miles: 3rd-9th level spells impeded, 5th-9th level spells limited, access to Astral prohibited
400 miles: 2nd-9th level spells impeded, 4th-9th level spells limited, divine powers of demigod and less annulled
300 miles: all spells impeded, 3rd-9th level spells limited, divine powers of lesser deity and less annulled
200 miles: all spells impeded, 2nd-9th level spells limited, divine powers of intermediate deity and less annulled
100 miles: all spells impeded, all spells limited, all divine powers annulled
Impeded spells require a spellcraft check (DC 15+spell level) to cast, limited spells can't be cast at all.
That looks pretty good, except I'd personally rather see it listed by the ring, as distance really doesn't have much meaning in the Outlands
Not to mention the fact that the rings move. I would also combine the two systems so that they would apply to 3.5e mechanics while following the 2e idea.
I tend to treat the distances as an eyeball for the DM not a hardbound rule. It would be worthwhile to mention something to that effect in the writeup introducing the table. 
Alright, I like the idea of combining the two, listing both rings and distances in a table, as Clueless suggests. As it is, in order for doppelgangers to retain their supernatural ability, Mirage would have to be out where the Athar would still be vulnerable to deific vengeance. Anyone have ideas on how to resolve this? Here's my proposal:
Since Mirage is near the base of the Spire (uncomfortably close to Sum-of-All, which lends to the friction between the Athar and the Rilmani), doppelgangers can't employ their normal change shape ability. Instead, they wear specially-crafted mirrormasks that reflect the face of the person to whom they are speaking. When two doppelgangers wearing mirrormasks face each other, the masks allow them to communicate telepathically. This effect only works for doppelgangers, and only within the ring surrounding the Spire.
... and the doppelganger's seeming mastery of, or at least use of, mirror magic further ties them in to the Kamerel. Nice, I like it.
One question... is Mirage supposed to be both the doppelganger town and the Athar basecamp, or are there just Athar there but with their basecamp being nearer the Spire?
Also, on a sidenote, because of the above mentioned mirror masks, I now envision this particular section of the outlands having a flavor like in the movie "Mirrormask". If you haven't seen it, shame on you. It's an awesome Henson Productions movie. Wikipedia it, though that doesn't do it justice.
I have seen Mirrormask, and it is teh HAWESOME! If we go that route, though, we have to be very, very careful not to end up accused of plagiarism. Wizards' IP we can play with as we like; Neil Gaimon's IP we cannot touch.
With the introduction of the idea of Mirage, I see the Athar as journeying to the Spire after the Faction War to escape retribution by the gods and first seeking asylum from the Rilmani. Rebuffed, they turned to the doppelgangers of Mirage. The Athar have their own settlement near their Spire mines, but the established businesses and trade routes involving Mirage make it very convenient for them to survive without magic. Plus, they are exploring the secrets of mirror magic, with which the doppelgangers are more forthcoming than the Rilmani.
I think the doppelgangers are very naive in their view of the Athars' friendship and dealings. Remember, they normally rely on their detect thoughts ability to gauge someone's motivations, and that ability doesn't function near the Spire. So the doppelgangers are very open and sharing with the Athar, thinking their overtures are real friendship, and not just a means to an end. At some point, if the Athar duplicity is revealed, the doppelgangers could turn on them...
Um, I know I'm gonna get beaten to death for that, but.. don't you think the distance for each ring is a bit.. short for an infinite plane? And since all realms lie within one of them? I ever thought it appropriate to multiplicate the distance between the rings by at least 10.
Yes, I'd mean messing with the original setting, so beat me. 
Southern Oracle: I didn't say copy Mirrormask, just the mood of it... add a sort of disassociated non sequitor dreamlike behaviour of the residents in Mirage, for instance.
That's not messing with anything that isn't a mess already. The mileage was introduced with the 3e Manual of the Planes and is, in my opinion, completely stupid. Distance does not matter on the Outer Planes, intent does. It's all relative, though nobody knows exactly to what. So the Outlands should have general estimated times of travel between two points, as noted in the 2e book, but no measured distances. Otherwise, you can't fit an infinite Spire in the middle of it. I say drop the mileage entirely and just keep the 3e version of the effects.
I don't understand the infinite of the spire. It's infinitely tall, I get that--but is it also infinitely wide or something? Because I keep hearing people mentioning it being exceptionally tall and it just doesn't sync with me.
The outlands is a flat infinitely wide disk with the spire at the center, and the spire is infinitely tall--and that's it, right?
Edit: Oh, I agree with the poster above and below me, too. I think Outlands works *much* better if you keep hard numbers out of it and make all distances relative and based on intent. The biggest and best reason that occurs to me is because it means you can fit anything and everything into the Outlands.
I totally agree. I just posted the table as-written so people could discuss.
The outlands is a flat infinitely wide disk with the spire at the center, and the spire is infinitely tall--and that's it, right?
There's some 2e source that I don't have enough time to look up right now that says that if you put your hand on the Spire and start walking aimlessly in one direction, you won't get anywhere. This implies an infinite circumference. If you aim for Sum of All or something, though, you'll get there within 3-18 days, or how ever many it takes to go from one site to another. I might have read that on the forum, however. Doesn't really matter, Spire's the Spire, and nobody's mapping the thing anyway.
Sounds good to me.
One additional thing: How is the spire the at the centre of the Outlands? Wouldn't that be a violation of The Rule of some kind? I know there's something beyond the reach of the Spire's Shadow, but it isn't really described in any detail as far as I remember.
Oh, and the spire can't be infinite if it pops out of the Outland grounds; mathematically.
Uhm... no offense, Clueless.
Anyway, the Spire is infinite, despite being firmly rooted in Outland firma and having a dohnut floating at the top. It is infinite... just don't argue. It can also be seen from any point in the Outlands themselves, but I can't remember how its the shadow works off the top of my head. Despite being in the 'center' of the Outlands, it does not violate the Center of All rule. Why? Because the Outlands are infinite and do not have a center. It's all an illusion. The Hinterlands outside of the ring of Gate-towns and the influence of the Spire stretch on forever, even though most bashers never tumble to the way one actually goes about exploring them.
So, because some author doesn't know a thing about maths, I am a clueless, right? 
Or maybe its jut me not knowing a thing about maths..
If I understand your question, your asking how something with an origin can be infinite.
To explain it mathematically, since that is your reference point, draw a number line. Start at zero and keep going until you run out of numbers...
Is the numberline going to be any less infinitely long in length for having a '0' origin point?
This also presumes that the spire starts at the ground level of the Outlands and does not delve infinitely below ground...
If I understand your question, your asking how something with an origin can be infinite.
To explain it mathematically, since that is your reference point, draw a number line. Start at zero and keep going until you run out of numbers...
Is the numberline going to be any less infinitely long in length for having a '0' origin point?
Yes, I think the correct term would be finite in this case.
Yes, I think the correct term would be finite in this case.
Ah. So then there are not an infinite number of positive numbers, or an infinity of numbers in between 2 and 7? Wow. Mathematicians are going to be quite surprised at your revelations.
Actually, between two defined points, it becomes finite.
Your example of between two and seven.
There is a bloody lot of them but, you have a start and end.
"Infinity cannot be contained!" - Thanos
In the number line example, the end point is infinity.
Regardless of starting value.
Number line goes from "0" to sideways eight.
Finite means it has an end.
The spire is supposed to be infinitely tall, hence the numberline example.
A base (or origin) but the terminus is infinity.
Besides, there's another argument you could make. Namely that The Outlands is the Spire. If you think about it, the base of the Spire starts out as broad and gently sloped and as the elevation increases, the slope increases and the circumference decreases. That much is obvious just from looking at the Spire, but what's less obvious is that it could easily work the same in reverse. It could just be that the base of the Spire gets so gradually sloped that it becomes indistinguishable from the rest of the outlands.
Actually, I wrote that a few days ago somewhere, and as far as I know I just made it up. But I like it and I'm pretty sure it fits the nature of the infinite
Actually, I wrote that a few days ago somewhere, and as far as I know I just made it up. But I like it and I'm pretty sure it fits the nature of the infinite
Darn it, Hymneth, messing with my impressionable little head. But really, I like the idea of the Spire being a large three dimensional graph of '1/x^2'. Whoever was intelligently designing the universe (probably some horrifying Far Realm entity on its day off) accidentally divided by 0 and got a huge magic-nullifying spire at the center of its little project. Naturally, Sigil becomes the hole in the graph and I become incredibly depressed that I'm geeky enough to remember all that stuff from High School.
Actually, between two defined points, it becomes finite.
Your example of between two and seven.
There is a bloody lot of them but, you have a start and end.
(1/2) + (1/4) + (1/8) + (1/16) + ...
Also, (9/10) + (9/100) + (9/1,000) + (9/10,000) + ...
The Spire can have a base, and a peak, and still have a functionally infinite length. You just have to de-Euclideanize the spacetime around its midsection a bit...
Also, (9/10) + (9/100) + (9/1,000) + (9/10,000) + ...
The Spire can have a base, and a peak, and still have a functionally infinite length. You just have to de-Euclideanize the spacetime around its midsection a bit...
Not to turn this into a mathematics discussion, but Dhampire is absolutely right. The distance between two defined points is always finite.
In the example given: The value of the distance between 2 and 7 is 5. 5 does not equal infinite. You can break five up into infinitely smaller parts, but taken as a whole the distance between 2 and 7 is not infinite (again, it's 5, a static value).
You could state that there's an infinite number of possible values (outside the whole value) between any two defined points (unless the defined points are equal), and if that's what you meant, sorry--I misunderstood.
He's also (obviously) right about the distance between a defined point and infinite being infinite. The value of the distance between 2 and infinite is infinite (or infinite - 2, but that's ultimately meaningless).
The problem with this discussion, interesting as it is, is that no matter how you justify what conditions should be like on the Planes, you're wrong. How do you quantify if a distance is finite when a body travelling from A to B and back to A at a constant speed takes 3 days in one direction and 18 in the other, passing through different terrain even though it never leaves a straight line? And if you travel halfway between A and B and remember that you left your halberd at A, you don't even have to turn around. You just have to keep walking and want to get to A, and in 3 - 18 days it'll be right in front of you again.
Of course, I'm wrong also. That's what makes the Planes interesting 
Magic? Some crazy space-time magic that doesn't need an explanation. Or simple say the planes work that way. (But don't make it 3-18 day always, I don't want to get to Illsensine's realm in 3-18 days.)
I'd describe the Outlands as more of a metaphor than a physical place. There are physical places in it, but outside of those defined points, it's not really... Real.
In the example given: The value of the distance between 2 and 7 is 5. 5 does not equal infinite. You can break five up into infinitely smaller parts, but taken as a whole the distance between 2 and 7 is not infinite (again, it's 5, a static value).
True. But I didn't say the distance was infinite (it's not). I said the amount of numbers was. I think I was making some kind of point about constrained infinities, which seems like a useful concept to understand out on the planes.
Mathematics as we know them work on the prime material planes.
Which is also why absolute measurements of distance (as in mentioned table) is just wrong for anywhere else than the prime material, and ceirtain selected points such as towns and cities. And I imagine even in Sigil it's rather relative at times.
The proof of the spires infinity is the fact that you cannot climb it and reach the top - you climb, and you climb, and you climb, and you die of old age. Or, if you're immortal, you climb some more. Yes, it has a base, yes, it has a top over which a mindboggingly large Bridgestone tire floats, in which an alarmingly large number of creatures actually lives.
But to from those facts (base+top) arrive at the conclusion that it is not infinite, is to aply mathematical logic to the planes - it just isn't the kind of logic that works out there.
I don't even think you'd have to go far beyond the gate towns to argue the Outllands infinity either; the distance between to points on the outlands is infinite in itself, in it's own special way.
Or, that's how I see it.
The conclusion of which is that I'd rather see the table of effects near the spire presented in rings and the aproximate times (such as 3-18 days is an example of) it takes to travel, rather than measured distance.
OMM
Longtime PS DM
As far as I remember it goes even beyond Antimagic Field. Poisons stop working in one of the rings, Psionics are affected just as magic, magical creatures like shadows would necessarily blink out, I'm pretty sure magically animated golems would crap out since wandering castles do, and in the innermost ring even the power of the Gods is nil.