Come to think of it, anyone else find it lame that the 'loths all have modern animal features?

20 posts / 0 new
Last post
Hyena of Ice's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2009-09-25
Come to think of it, anyone else find it lame that the 'loths all have modern animal features?

I mean, we're talking about the oldest race of fiends here, and they all possess features of Cretaceous animals. Esp. the bearnaloths (goats? Come on!)

Where's my cynodont, armored predatory fish, trilobite, and labyrinthodont (missing link species bet. fish and amphibians)Yugoloths? Heck, where are my 'loths with dinosaur features? You'd think these creatures would dominate the 'loth designs on the Gray Waste, since the 'loths there represent resistance to sociological change.

Yes, yes, I know what you're going to say-- maybe such creatures changed form or died out as the creatures they mirrored became extinct on most primes. Or that their modern forms are due to belief (I find this idea nonsensical in the case of the Baernaloths, since they are not worshipped, and also, IMHO, belief only changes the forms of yet-unborn outsiders, not the ones already in existence)

So, I think what we really need are some Yugoloth lords with throwback features. (I'm sure the General of Gehenna, un less he has chosen to permanently change his form, appears in his natural form as a Cambrian explosion-period vertebrate-- maybe even something like a combination of uber-grotesque hagfish and other throwback features. Of course, I object to the idea of depicting the General of Gehenna visually-- the mystery and intrigue behind the character is half the point.)

Zimrazim's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2007-01-14
Re: Come to think of it, anyone else find it lame that the ...

I like the idea of yugoloths with the features of ancient critters such as trilobites.

That said, I figure they have "modern animal" features due to Belief, as you said. For example, since jackals tend to have an unpleasant reputation when humans think about them, arcanaloths have those features. Basically yugoloths have those features due to their symbolic meaning/value.

(I would also add that you would think that many fiends, especially smarter/older/more advanced ones, would be very consciously interested in symbolism, for its effect on mortals as well as its intrinsic supernatural value.)

__________________

BoGr Guide to Missile Combat:
1) Equip a bow or crossbow.
2) Roll a natural 1 on d20.
3) ?????
4) Profit!

Dalmosh's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2011-03-13
Re: Come to think of it, anyone else find it lame that the ...

I know 3.5 era yugoloths from the splat books aren't especially popular around here but there is an echinoloth in Stormwrack, and the Voor from MM4 is vaguely proto-crustaceous in a Cambrian kind of way, it reminds me very vaguely of a horseshoe crab. Then there are the insectile Mezzoloths and Dergholoths, and the crustaceous piscoloths. All of these represent absolutely ancient lineages of life, and a more archaic deep-time kind of evil.
I quite like the fact that the higher orders of 'loth resemble beings more iconic to a modern concept of evil, goats, wolves, bats and humans. The fact that the previous forms are still so prevalent though is definitely indicative that there might be some altroloths retaining more 'archaic' forms.
Why not alter your form consciously to resonate with mortal races' iconic representations of evil? When you live upon and are bound to Planes formed from mortal belief, you must surely value this to some extent.
Yugoloths aren't Obyriths or Farspawn, they are much more firmly grounded in the affairs and minds of mortals. So as avatars of absolute, timeless, unbridled and soulless evil and despair, a rotting goat is a pretty relevant form even for the Baern to choose. They probably didn't always do so though. If your core purpose for being is to act as a black hole for hope and goodness then it is fine to keep things simple visually by choosing a dominant icon of the times.

Hyena of Ice's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2009-09-25
Re: Come to think of it, anyone else find it lame that the ...

It depends on the crustacean, though. For instance, lobsters and crabs didn't come around until the Triassic. The mezzoloth IMO bears too close a resemblance to modern weevils.

ripvanwormer's picture
Online
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
Re: Come to think of it, anyone else find it lame that the ...

I think yugoloths looked exactly how they do now long before the mortal animals they superficially resemble, or any mortal life at all, existed. 'Loths have nothing to do with animals, so I don't like the idea of them reflecting contemporaneous animal life. Arcanoloths look like jackals because the meanings of jackals existed long before jackals did.

sciborg2's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2005-07-26
Re: Come to think of it, anyone else find it lame that the ...

Yeah, I actually think the number of D&D planets that have our evolutionary history, or evolution from the ground up, is exceedingly rare.

Edit: That said, I do find the idea of exemplars shifting over time to represent new animals - or new exemplars coming about wearing the faces of new animals.

__________________

Health Resources: Register family with 911 services, so providers will have info prior to emergency/disaster. Also mental health info & hotlines, articles, treatment assistance options, prescription assistance, special needs registries, legal aid, and more!

Hyena of Ice's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2009-09-25
Re: Come to think of it, anyone else find it lame that the ...

I think yugoloths looked exactly how they do now long before the mortal animals they superficially resemble, or any mortal life at all, existed. 'Loths have nothing to do with animals, so I don't like the idea of them reflecting contemporaneous animal life. Arcanoloths look like jackals because the meanings of jackals existed long before jackals did.

Then why do the Obyriths all reflect ancient animal life? I mean, I'm sure Obox-Ob adopted the rodent associations later, but refuse-feeding arthropods and worms date all the way back to the Cambrian explosion. Dagon also possesses features of many bygone-era animals-- namely cephalopods and early fish (yeah, cephalopods still exist to day, but they first sprang up IIRC in the Devonian or Carboniferous) He also possesses reptilian hands.

The Baernaloths are uber-ancient, hidden/reclusive evils-- the progenitor race to all fiends. They're not going to change for anybody. Besides that, representing an extinct animal = more alien, which for prettymuch every extant sentient race = automatically more frightening. Though come to think of it, why would they WANT to go to the trouble of taking a new form if they don't intend to ever be found by mortals?

ripvanwormer's picture
Online
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
Re: Come to think of it, anyone else find it lame that the ...

Hyena of Ice wrote:
Then why do the Obyriths all reflect ancient animal life?

I think they're just supposed to look like Lovecraftian horrors, playing off of our (in the real world) discomfort with invertebrates, rather than resembling forms of mortal life that probably didn't even exist yet in their time.

It's not really a rule that obyriths have to look like ancient forms of life, anyway. We don't know that Pale Night or Pazuzu ever did (they both had different appearances in the past, but not necessarily "ancient" appearances).

The theme of obyriths is that they look maddening. What exactly that means is a matter of interpretation. Lovecraft thought amphibians, fish, and invertebrate were pretty alien and horrific, but he also gave some of his horrors mammalian parts: the byakkhee, for example, and the gnoph-keh. The gnoph-keh was Clark Ashton Smith, but you know what I mean.

Quote:
Besides that, representing an extinct animal = more alien, which for prettymuch every extant sentient race = automatically more frightening.

That might explain obyriths, but yugoloths don't necessarily want to be frightening. Arcanaloths want to seem like calm, reasonable presences that you might want to do business with.

Quote:
The Baernaloths are uber-ancient, hidden/reclusive evils-- the progenitor race to all fiends. They're not going to change for anybody.

I agree, unless they decide they want to change for themselves. They probably always looked like that.

I think it's more likely that goats were modified to look like them than vice versa. I can imagine the ancestor of all goats being cursed to look like a baernaloth as punishment for some ancient sin, the jackal cursed to look like an arcanaloth because the gods thought it was untrustworthy.

Kobold Avenger's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2005-11-18
Re: Come to think of it, anyone else find it lame that the ...

I always pictured the the Mezzoloths sort of looking more like the Predators, rather than giant Cockroaches as they've become in 3e and beyond.

The Dhergoloth looked rather alien, even if it was insectoid.

But generally the appearances of Yugoloths are more symbolic ones, and they don't have to follow a common theme, even though a bunch of them sort of do.

Hyena of Ice's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2009-09-25
Re: Come to think of it, anyone else find it lame that the ...

I think they're just supposed to look like Lovecraftian horrors, playing off of our (in the real world) discomfort with invertebrates
Uh, most of Dagon's features belong to vertebrates. And yes, I agree with you that Lovecraftianism is the main theme with the Obyrith, BUT..! Unlike most Lovecraftian Aberrations, the Obyrith possess clear-cut animal features.

rather than resembling forms of mortal life that probably didn't even exist yet in their time.
The winddukes, 'loths, and genies existed long before humanoid mortals-- they may even have existed before the first tetrapod or tetrapod-like bony fish *e.g. gobies, mudskippers, stuff like that*.

It's not really a rule that obyriths have to look like ancient forms of life, anyway. We don't know that Pale Night or Pazuzu ever did (they both had different appearances in the past, but not necessarily "ancient" appearances).
Pale Night is an exception because I believe she doesn't really have an original form-- she has a form under that shroud now, but IMO her concept is based heavily off of both Nyx and Gaea (and even in the mythology, Nyx's true/purely Protogena form is of a black mist dotted with twinkling stars-- she was in fact one of the only Protogenoi the Greeks ever anthropomorphized.)
Pazuzu's origiual form was probably an archosaur or similar pre-dinosaur bird/reptile missing link with 4 or more feathered or leathery wings and lots of heads.

That might explain obyriths, but yugoloths don't necessarily want to be frightening. Arcanaloths want to seem like calm, reasonable presences that you might want to do business with.
Most of the low-end 'loths plus the Baernaloths want to be frightening so that most annoying prattle won't bother them. Of course the higher-end 'loths are always going to look less alien and more humanoid.

I think it's more likely that goats were modified to look like them than vice versa. I can imagine the ancestor of all goats being cursed to look like a baernaloth as punishment for some ancient sin, the jackal cursed to look like an arcanaloth because the gods thought it was untrustworthy.
Eh, that seems silly, since jackals and esp. goats don't look scary to me-- goats are cute.

I always pictured the the Mezzoloths sort of looking more like the Predators, rather than giant Cockroaches as they've become in 3e and beyond.
The mezzoloths honestly should combine cockroach and mantis features (mantises evolved from predatory cockroaches) The Mezzoloth's design in 3x particularly is just plain BAD. It should not have goat-like legs (WTF), and its arms should be shaped like those of a dragonfly or mantis-- barbed and curved for grappling (and it can make a much more powerful grapple with its arms than it can from its pincer-fingers) Really, it does need a redesign. The way I would make it:
Cockroach with heavy mantis features-- e.g. wide, mountain-shaped legs (good stable footing for grapples), mantis-like arms with serrated, scary looking barbs, jaws more like a dragonfly's (I say dragonfly's because my own personal experience tells me that mantises aren't all that great at tearing and crushing flesh-- they just bite and feel around on the animal until they find a soft spot and eat there-- they're not even strong enough to affect human flesh. Dragonflies however are adept at tearing invertebrate flesh and can deliver a nasty bite to humans-- this makes sense since they're adapted to eating heavily armored arthropods like beetles, as well as catching small fish.) Whereas the purpose of scissor-like jaws in invertebrates (such as stag beetles, dobson flies, and bull ants) is for grappling rather than crushing or tearing (other good examples of crushing/tearing mandibles are those of yellowjackets, paper wasps, and hornets) The vast majority of scissor-jawed insects are minimally or non-predatory with only the males possessing the long, scissor-like jaws. The jaws are used solely in territorial disputes with other males-- while the bite is painful and nasty even to a human, the jaws only pinch, grip, and clamp like a vise-- they can't crush or tear flesh like what is needed for a predator.

Hyena of Ice's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2009-09-25
Re: Come to think of it, anyone else find it lame that the ...

Here's some yugoloth types that I would add:

Fornicoloth: Voluptuous beauties with divination-thwarting powers who polymorph into beautiful demons or devils in order to seduce generals and other leaders in the Blood-War and extract their secrets (before anyone groans at the name, it's not any worse than Canoloth *dog*, Skeleroth *need I even say?* Nycaloth *night*, Piscoloth *fish*, Echinoloth *starfish/sea urchin/sea biscuit*, Mezzoloth *middle/medium*, or Ultroloth...)

Kleptoloth: Worm-like low-end loths with tentacle-like whiskers. It is their duty to covertly collect overdue debts by secretly robbing the debtor at most inconvenient times. Being stretchy, rubbery worms, they can squeeze through the tiniest of spaces. They carry collected debts in their Stomachs of Holding.

Limoloth: Skeleroth-like loths whose aura deprives all mortal life within range of nutrients, causing starvation within minutes (and eventually death if said mortals cannot escape)

Those are the ones I can think of just immediately off my head. I'm sure I could eventually think of others. Looking at the list of Eugathodaemons and Cacodaemons on Theoi.com, the following themes are also fitting of yugoloths:

--amnesia
--helplessness
--Mockery/ridicule/blame (actually sounds fairly amusing and quite yugoloth-like. Imagine trying to defeat a tag-team of Tanar'ri while a Momoloth keeping a healthy distance from the battle ridicules your every move along with the style of your armor or robe. Then, he turns to the female thief and comments about the asymmetry of her breasts, and comments that the obscene size of the barbarian's axe indicates he is surely compensating for the miniscule size of his manhood.)
--silence/quiet/peace/loneliness (creature spreads the disease known as "Animus Blindness", identical to Life Blindness from the Book of Vile Darkness, except that it blinds the victim to anything possessing an animating spirit, which also includes undead, deathless, and sometimes even non-living constructs.)
--poverty

Most of the Yugoloths mentioned here along with the concepts apply to the Old Paradigm, though the Fornicoloths, Kleptoloths, and Momoloths are part of the New Paradigm.

EXTRA GOODIES

brief history of Taba: Taba, like most Yugoloth lords, is extremely old, and was originally part of the Old Paradigm. Back then, she was the thief of youth and health, inflicting lassitude, wasting, and premature age on her victims. With the Great Migration to Gehenna, she changed her portfolio to perfectionism and theft (Particularly Hellbreakers and Abyssbreakers)
Taba appears as a lovely, lithe humanoid thief with garnet-red pupils, small bat-like wings and a long spiny tail. The wings are too small for flying, but are just large enough to to slow and/or direct her fall. The wings are very flexible and can be draped over her shoulders to minimize space. Her spiny tail is prehensile and highly useful for grappling creatures or objects-- it is primarily used for the latter. Her skin has chameleon-like powers of camouflage and can exude a slimy mucus (as per the Grease spell) if she so wishes, used primarily for escape artist attempts. She possesses both a set of lungs and a set of gills.

Bubonix: Bubonix is the Yugoloth lord of misinformation, deceit, poison, ambition, and sabotage. Along with Syphilia (see Lady of Flattery below) and the Oinoloth, he makes up the triumvate of the three most powerful Yugoloth lords aside from the General of Gehenna himself. The festering sores on his body come in a myriad of colors, sizes, and appearances, and each kind oozes a different type of poison.

Cholerix: Cholerix is a minor Yugoloth Lord of mercenaries, greed, ruthlessness, massacres, raids, marauderers, collateral damage, and opportunism.
Bubonix's success so far is due largely to Cholerix's merciless treatment of the Gehreleths and other natives in kind.

The Oinoloth's portfolio is disease, pain, despair, and dogged adherence tradition.

NEEDED YUGOLOTH LORDS:
The following is a summary of Yugoloth lords needed in the setting:

--Lady of flattery, guile, and leaked military secrets
Yugoloth lord of Gehenna whose portfolio is the use of sex and flattery for infiltration and manipulation. In fact, she is one of the three most powerful of the yugoloth lords aside from the General of Gehenna-- of equal power to the Oinoloth and Bubonix, and her full portfolio also includes bribery and drug use. In her natural form, she is a voluptuous humanoid with spined, razor sharp wings, large breasts, and... .
...
Okay, there's no way of describing this in a detached scientific way without it being incredibly obscene. Essentially, she's a dick-girl. However, she can polymorph into other inviting forms *and genders* and can alter her external genitalia into whatever form she wishes.) As lame as the name sounds, I'm going with Syphilia unless anyone can come up with a better name (and I'm just now noticing the double-pun here, as ~philia is the Latin suffix for love). As the Lady of Bribes, she is dressed in luxurious clothing and much jewelry.

--Lord of Interrogation
A many-spined yugoloth lord of interrogation, torture, prolonguing of agony, and evil applications of healing and medicine. He lives on the Gray Waste. As expected, this Yugoloth lord not only possesses the Heal skill, but also many spell-like abilities for healing-- only used to prolong a victim's suffering.

--Lord of Disaster
Appearance not decided, but he exists on the Gray Waste. While Bubonix is the lord of man-made disasters, the Lord of Diaster is the lord of natural disasters-- disasters of the elements (fires, storms, floods, etc.), famine/starvation, as well as the helplessness and powerlessness that accompanies them.

Idran's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2007-06-10
Re: Come to think of it, anyone else find it lame that the ...

Hyena of Ice wrote:
Okay, there's no way of describing this in a detached scientific way without it being incredibly obscene.

..."Hermaphroditic"?

Hyena of Ice's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2009-09-25
Re: Come to think of it, anyone else find it lame that the ...

Hermaphroditic is too vague (for instance, it could mean she has a separate set of both types, or that they're ambiguous)

Also, the reason I just went with "she's a dickgirl", is that if you actually look closely at most of the drawn dickgirl porn out there (if you must know, I only look for the lulz since dickgirl smut often has other hilarious weirdness going on in it), you'll note that (at least in most of the pics), the chicks don't actually have male genitalia or both male and female genitalia, but rather a set of highly modified female genitalia (I'm sure that unless you're either a chick or familiar with comparative anatomy or embryology that you have no idea what that means, but if you are familiar with any of the above, you probably have a pretty good idea what I'm getting at.)

ripvanwormer's picture
Online
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
Re: Come to think of it, anyone else find it lame that the ...

You mean her "penis" is actually a modified clitoris. That's not so obscene.

Of course, all yugoloths are supposed to be hermaphrodites, technically. I suppose the unique ones might be exceptions.

Idran's picture
Offline
Namer
Joined: 2007-06-10
Re: Come to think of it, anyone else find it lame that the ...

ripvanwormer wrote:
You mean her "penis" is actually a modified clitoris. That's not so obscene.

Technically, they all are, after all.

Quote:
Of course, all yugoloths are supposed to be hermaphrodites, technically. I suppose the unique ones might be exceptions.

...Wait, really? Where's that from?

Hyena of Ice's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2009-09-25
Re: Come to think of it, anyone else find it lame that the ...

Of course, all yugoloths are supposed to be hermaphrodites, technically. I suppose the unique ones might be exceptions.
I thought they had a default gender, but could switch between them within a 12 or 24 hour period.

Zimrazim's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2007-01-14
Re: Come to think of it, anyone else find it lame that the ...

I believe the loth hermaphrodism thing is from Faces of Evil.

The arcanaloths in published material generally seem to pretend to be either male or female, probably just to keep from confusing the heck out of the mortals they deal with.

__________________

BoGr Guide to Missile Combat:
1) Equip a bow or crossbow.
2) Roll a natural 1 on d20.
3) ?????
4) Profit!

Zimrazim's picture
Offline
Factol
Joined: 2007-01-14
Re: Come to think of it, anyone else find it lame that the ...

Hyena of Ice wrote:
Okay, there's no way of describing this in a detached scientific way without it being incredibly obscene.

I'll give it a try. This being's anatomy somewhat resembles that of a female spotted hyena?

__________________

BoGr Guide to Missile Combat:
1) Equip a bow or crossbow.
2) Roll a natural 1 on d20.
3) ?????
4) Profit!

ripvanwormer's picture
Online
Factol
Joined: 2004-10-05
Re: Come to think of it, anyone else find it lame that the ...

Hyena of Ice wrote:
Of course, all yugoloths are supposed to be hermaphrodites, technically. I suppose the unique ones might be exceptions. I thought they had a default gender, but could switch between them within a 12 or 24 hour period.

No, you're thinking of tanar'ri (who, as creatures of chaos, are more protean than other fiends). Yes, Faces of Evil claimed that yugoloths are all physically hermaphrodites, though individual ones could identify psychologically more with one gender.

Hyena of Ice's picture
Offline
factotums
Joined: 2009-09-25
Re: Come to think of it, anyone else find it lame that the ...

I'll give it a try. This being's anatomy somewhat resembles that of a female spotted hyena?

Yeah, that came to mind as well.

On a similar subject, thinking about it, it seems likely that males not measuring up would be a problem limited to mortals, seeing as how elementals (presumably) and at least most of the outsider races can choose secondary sex characteristics to some degree (and at least with the living constructs, Slaadi, mephits, and fiendish races, it appears as though they can also choose whether or not to manifest them externally at will... which means that groin shots are also likely more of a concern for mortals. Heh, mortal men must seem pretty damn pathetic to the aforementioned races... )

Planescape, Dungeons & Dragons, their logos, Wizards of the Coast, and the Wizards of the Coast logo are ©2008, Wizards of the Coast, a subsidiary of Hasbro Inc. and used with permission.