Chapter 2: Clarifying "Outsider"

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ripvanwormer's picture
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Chapter 2: Clarifying "Outsider"

Page 3 of Chapter 2 has a section on "clarifying" the term outsider which I think muddies and complicates the issue more than it helps. It's very much a legacy of what the prevalent thinking was in early 3.0 edition, when the term outsider was very vague and *needed* clarifying. Back then, outsiders were said to be (as the document says) any extraplanar creature which isn't an elemental, and many in the Planescape community were very concerned that this definition didn't work in a campaign where just about everyone is extraplanar.

Nowadays, in 3.5, outsiders are defined very specifically in much the way that Chapter 2 suggests. As the SRD says: "An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane." That's very close to Chapter 2's "The creature type 'outsider' is reserved for creatures with a particularly powerful connection to their plane." As we all know, there's an extraplanar subtype to handle the many examples of creatures who are extraplanar but not outsiders. The same section talks about "native outsiders" as if they were something that only existed in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting. This was true at the time that was written, but obviously isn't now, and should be changed to take that into account.

I think this citing of 3.0 rules as if the 3.5 revision didn't exist just muddies the water. I understand the desire to distinguish between what Planescape called outsiders (the Clueless) and the creature type, but what's really needed is a clarification of how the extraplanar and native outsider subtypes interact with characters in the Planescape section. Under what circumstances is a character considered to be native to Gehenna? Is it sufficient to be born there, or do your ancestors have to hail from there as well? How long does a family have to live on another plane before they can be considered to be native to it, if ever? These are things that WotC has never defined (Customer Service says it's up to the individual DM and there is no official rule), but which it would be very useful to know in a Planescape campaign.

The distinction between primes and planars should also be rethought in light of the present rules. I think it's important for the sake of factions like the Planarists that the terms be preserved in-game, but I think the extraplanar subtype handles all the rules elements of the dichotomy. I'm particularly concerned about handing the ability to sense portals to planars for free, since primes no longer get anything in return. I also doubt the logic of the rule: wouldn't a prime from a particularly magical and portal-heavy part of the Material Plane have as much or more of an affinity for portals as a character from some isolated demiplane or primitive Hinterlandish village?

About the line "in contrast to the ignorant primes": While I view Planescape's rants about the ignorance of primes with affection, it should be remembered that this was one of the things that turned people off the setting the most. The irony in Planescape's 'voice' seems to escape some people, who view it as an actual attack on their favored campaign settings or play styles rather than in-character ranting for the sake of flavor. I move that part be cut out unless it's found in a quote from a NPC and countered by an example of planar cluelessness.

It also might be useful to acknowledge on page 4 that "proxy" has a different meaning in the official rules than it does in Planescape.

The art is beautiful, by the way.

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Chapter 2: Clarifying "Outsider"

I must agree that I find the terms being used a little confusing. But then, I've always been a little confused...

Am I an outsider, or merely extraplanar? Am I a native, or a stranger? The identity crisis of people-not-from-the-prime must be staggering in 3rd edition.

The art is also good. No confusion there!

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Chapter 2: Clarifying "Outsider"

I honestly don't see where the confusion lies, except maybe in the definition of "home plane", and that only because there haven't been any hard and fast rules written about it.

You're an (Extraplanar) if you aren't on your home plane. You're an Outsider (Native) if you belong to a race (templated or otherwise) that grants you the type and subtype.

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Chapter 2: Clarifying "Outsider"

'nick012000' wrote:
I honestly don't see where the confusion lies, except maybe in the definition of "home plane", and that only because there haven't been any hard and fast rules written about it.

I think it might be appropriate to provide such rules in a Planescape campaign. What makes a plane your home plane? How long do you have to live there? How long do your ancestors have to live there? I don't think the rules need to be hard and fast - there can always be exceptions - but some guidelines might be nice.

Quote:
You're an Outsider (Native) if you belong to a race (templated or otherwise) that grants you the type and subtype.

Being a half-fiend means you're a native outsider in the standard rules - but what if you were born in the Abyss? Are you still considered to be native to the Material Plane? Does that mean you're extraplanar in the Abyss, the plane you were born on and have lived all your life? Does that mean you can be banished to the Material Plane, a plane you've never been to?

On the other hand, if they don't have the native subtype, half-fiends native to the Abyss wouldn't have to eat or sleep, and they wouldn't have mortal souls. It doesn't make sense that this would change just depending on their place of birth. If mortal blood gives you a mortal soul, you should have it whatever plane you're from.

Rationally, I think a half-fiend born in the Abyss would have the native subtype, but be considered extraplanar on the Material Plane. But the rules don't say that. That would be something the Planewalker chapter could clarify.

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Chapter 2: Clarifying "Outsider"

Would I have to get myself a planar working visa, or green card? Could you have dual-homeplane-citizenship? I suppose not the last, but this sounds enough like naturalization issues.

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Chapter 2: Clarifying "Outsider"

Outsider (Native) does not mean that you're native to the Material Plane. It's just a category of monsters, like Aberrations, Humanoids and Animals. If you're an Outsider (Native), you belong to that particular category of monsters, and also a member of the group of monsters labelled as Outsiders.

You're an Extraplanar if you're not on your home plane. So, if you're a shifter from Eberron wandering around Sigil, you're a Humanoid (Shapeshifter, Extraplanar, Shifter). If you're a half-fiend human from the Abyss burninating Prime Material villages, you're an Outsider (Native, Extraplanar, Augmented Humanoid, Human).

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Chapter 2: Clarifying "Outsider"

'nick012000' wrote:
Outsider (Native) does not mean that you're native to the Material Plane. It's just a category of monsters, like Aberrations, Humanoids and Animals.

I agree with you that this is how it should be interpreted, but unfortunately the rules say otherwise. See the description of the subtype, where it says, "Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name)."

I think it's possible to stretch the definition and assume that "native" in that context isn't actually the same as the word "native" in the description of the extraplanar subtype, but only a reminder that outsiders who are native to other planes don't necessarily have the native subtype.

But this is why the subtypes are confusing as hell, and need clarification.

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Chapter 2: Clarifying "Outsider"

Also, what about banishment effects? It's all fine and good when your heroic cleric sends the archfiend back to hell before he can torch an orphanage. The evil thing is gone. Where has it gone back to? Who cares, because the answer is "somewhere other than here."

But what happens when a balor uses dispel good on your character? If your character is from Sigil, he can't very well reappear in Sigil. Ah, but a Sigil native is native to the Outlands. That opens up an infinitely huge area where he could potentially appear. He can't appear at the base of the Spire, since no one can get there by magic. Some random gate-town? Even if he's never been to a gate-town before? The middle of nowhere in the Hinterlands? Does a banished creature reappear where he was just before he entered the plane?

What about a character who was born in the gate-town of Excelsior, but has lived in Sigil for years. What about a character who was conceived in Tradegate, born in the City of Glass, and grew up in a town on Arcadia? What's his home plane?

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Chapter 2: Clarifying "Outsider"

I've always understood Outsider (Native) as applying to any creature with mortal ancestry at some point in time. Mortal ancestry means that one of their ancestors came from the Prime Material Plane and as such was one of the Prime races (Human, Elf, Dwarf, etc). These beings can be raised and/or reincarnated just like any other Prime being. This is the difference between Outsider and Outsider (Native). An Outsider who is slain on any plane other than its home is automatically banished to its home plane. Outsiders are immortal, Outsider (Natives) are not; they need to eat and sleep just like all other Prime beings do as well.

As for 'extraplanar'subtype. An Outsider (Native) is given the subtype of 'extraplanar' on any plane other than the Prime Material, and is affected accordingly. As for regular Outsiders, a Balor, for example, is extraplanar on any other plane other than the Abyss, meaning it cannot be banished from or summoned to the Abyss. Outsiders also do not need to eat, drink, or sleep, and when slain in a Plane other than their own are banished to the Plane where they came from.

Humans, on the other hand, are considered native to the Prime Material Plane, Tieflings and Aasimar are native to the Prime Material, not because that is where they are born, but because that's where their mortal blood comes from. Prime Material beings have mortal souls that, according to DnD rules, travel through the domains of the dead until at some point they end up as petitioners to a certain god on that god's home Plane. That, of course, is another story entirely.

The same would be said of any Outsider (Native) who was born on the Prime. One cannot *summon* an Outsider (Native) to the Prime Material Plane because summoning involves calling something *extraplanar*, as does banishing. Even if that creature was in Elysium, for example, they could not be summonded to their native plane, but they may be banished there.

The largest benefit of the Outsider type and Native sub-type is that spells that affect humanoids do not affect Outsiders (hold person, dominate person, pretty much any spell with the word 'person' attached to it).

Quote:
But what happens when a balor uses dispel good on your character?

You make a will save and cross your fingers you don't get sent back to your home Plane. Or you laugh because your PC is CN.

Quote:
If your character is from Sigil, he can't very well reappear in Sigil. Ah, but a Sigil native is native to the Outlands.

It would depend on the race of your PC. If you were playing a human, elf, etc., you would end up back on the Prime. Where? Well, that's up to your DM. Yes, it makes for interesting RP.

Quote:
That opens up an infinitely huge area where he could potentially appear. He can't appear at the base of the Spire, since no one can get there by magic. Some random gate-town? Even if he's never been to a gate-town before? The middle of nowhere in the Hinterlands? Does a banished creature reappear where he was just before he entered the plane?

Were I the DM, I'd look at the PC's race and history, and banish them accordingly. If the character is an Outsider, they are *forced* back to their home plane no matter what. There is no difference just because the character is controlled by a player, no exception to the rule, at least, not in my opinion. I would thank my lucky stars if that's all a Balor did to me, truth be told.

I don't know if that helps at all, but there you go.

As for the planar versions of the Prime races, I do believe there are specific rules about those races in the 3.5 edition of the Planar Handbook.

~X

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Chapter 2: Clarifying "Outsider"

Umm... Outsiders are only banished to their homeplanes when killed if they've been summoned with a Conjuration (Summoning) spell. Otherwise, they're just dead, and their essence merges with their plane.

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Chapter 2: Clarifying "Outsider"

Right. Left that out didn't I? My mistake.

and since we're on that subject:

Quote:
Outsider (Native) does not mean that you're native to the Material Plane. It's just a category of monsters, like Aberrations, Humanoids and Animals. If you're an Outsider (Native), you belong to that particular category of monsters, and also a member of the group of monsters labelled as Outsiders.

in response to that, the SRD defines an Outsider (Native) as follows:

Quote:
A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane. Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.

I understand SRD's are not always recognized, which is why you may visit wizard's page HERE and see for yourself.

IOW, Outsider (Native) means that they are Outsiders native to the Prime Material Plane. If they travel off of the Prime, they will also acquire the extraplanar subtype as well. Normal Outsiders are extraplanar in every plane but their home plane, but in their home plane they are simply Outsiders, with the same traits as an Outsider has. There are certain things that go along with the Native subtype that apply to Outsiders that come from the Prime that do not apply to other Outsiders on their home planes.

Again, hope that helps.

~X

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Chapter 2: Clarifying "Outsider"

'nick012000' wrote:
Umm... Outsiders are only banished to their homeplanes when killed if they've been summoned with a Conjuration (Summoning) spell. Otherwise, they're just dead, and their essence merges with their plane.

The Fiendish Codex I changed that, bring back the rule from earlier editions that demons can be reborn if killed outside their home plane (or even, in some cases, if killed on it), albeit with reduced power.

It's probably safe to say the same is true for equivalent creatures such as slaadi, archons, baatezu, yugoloths, and aasimon. If it were true for bariaurs, that would make up for them being officially considered outsiders (and it would fit with Ysgard's theme of allowing warriors killed in a heroic manner to be reborn).

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Hello, guys...I am a little

Hello, guys...

I am a little clueless about something, see if you can help me?

By D&D 3.5 rules, if my character is a human Favored Soul of Sif, born and raised in Ysgard, is she a:

A- Outsider

B- Extraplanar (when out of Ysgard)

C-  Humanoid

D- Planetouched

E- All above

F- Something else.

 

Does she need to sleep or drink? Does she have a soul? Can she be banished?... 

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A: No, humaniond

A: No, humaniond (extraplanar) is the apropriate subtype.

B: She should be

C: As above, yes

D: No

E: Logically, no Smiling

F: If your DM has their own take on the matter, maybe

As a humanoid, she must eat, sleep, and drink (though it bears noting that by 2e PS cannon, many fiends did need to eat sleep and drink). She has a soul, which is seperate from the body, as do all non-oustider/elemental/undead/constructs, and as such ressurects or raises as a humanoid. She can be banished if she is not on Ysgard unless your DM has a problem with the fact.

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Thank you very much,

Thank you very much, weishan!

Actually, I am the DM, and starting a Planescape Campaign within D&D 3.5, and this conceptual character are of my spouse  ^^

So, basically, this Ysgardian chick would be "Ysgardian (Extrapalnar) Human Female FavoredSoul of Sif?

And in the case of a Githyanki born and raised on the Astral? Outsider? Humanoid? Soul or not? Eat, drink?... 

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Your "Ysgardian chick"

Your "Ysgardian chick" would only have the extraplanar subtype when outside of Ysgard.

The githyanki is a humanoid, and gains the extraplanar subtype when outside the Astral Plane (though this is another can of worms, since most githyanki are born on the Material Plane - as above, it depends on what exactly constitutes a "native" of a plane. Officially, githyanki are natives of the Astral Plane, but almost none of them are born there - it's physically impossible to be born there, because time doesn't pass on the plane, so nothing ages and fetuses (or, in this case, eggs) can't gestate. Githyanki travel to other planes to lay their eggs and hatch their young, except in a few rare cases where dead gods of time floating in the Astral radiate an aura where time passes - some githyanki are born there). So apparently that means that officially, "native" status is not simply the result of where you happen to be born. 

According to the SRD, though, githyanki are extraplanar humanoids (while on the Material Plane). On the Astral Plane they become regular humanoids. 

 All humanoids have souls, and must eat and drink, whether they're extraplanar or not. 

 

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ripvanwormer wrote:All

ripvanwormer wrote:
All humanoids have souls, and must eat and drink, whether they're extraplanar or not. 

It just bears noting that there is an 'unless otherwise noted' caveat there, though if you aren't eating and drinking, there's a compelling case to change your type to something else than humanoid. Entirely different can of worms...   

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Perhaps we should abandon

Perhaps we should abandon the Outsider (Native) tag in favor of Outsider (Prime)? That might clear things up.

 

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Thanx to everybody, let's

Thanx to everybody, let's keep going \o/

 

And about 'outsider (pime)', i think I saw around here the nomenclature 'outside (mortal)', and think both suits well.

And what'd be the real difference between Outsider and Extraplanar?

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Zontel wrote:And what'd be

Zontel wrote:
And what'd be the real difference between Outsider and Extraplanar?

Outsider is a creature type. It defines an entity's being, as mentioned above - a creature who is composed of the essence of a plane other than the Material.

Extraplanar is a subtype. It can be applied to creatures of any type, and just indicates that the creature is, at this particular moment, not on its home plane.

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Outsider (Mortal) is not an

Outsider (Mortal) is not an official term, nor a nescesary one, I think. You are a humanoid with a seperate soul, or an outsider with no difference between soul and body. (Being an outsider does not preclude you from dying of old age if your DM--or you--takes a looser interpretation of the 3e definition, so mortal is irrelevant)

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 Zontel wrote: "And about

 Zontel wrote:

"And about 'outsider (pime)', i think I saw around here the nomenclature 'outside (mortal)', and think both suits well.

"And what'd be the real difference between Outsider and Extraplanar?"

Outsider (prime) is as bad as Outsider (native), since it would require us to define what a prime is. If a  slaad, xill, or other outsider is born on the Prime Material Plane (because it bursts from the chest of someone there, for example), does it become a prime, or is it still a planar? How many generations does a family of tritons from the Elemental Plane of Water have to live on the Prime Material Plane before they become primes? Just one? A hundred? It's just as difficult a question as (native), really, and one I really think the Planewalker Campaign Setting should have answered. 

(Mortal) is a much better term than (native) or (prime), and I endorse it wholeheartedly. While a standard outsider isn't necessarily unaging if the DM doesn't want it to be, I'd be fine with declaring that all outsiders are ageless unless they have the (mortal) subtype. The 4e equivalent of the outsider type is the immortal type, after all (well, that and the elemental type - both are much better names), and Planescape certainly stated that tanar'ri, baatezu, yugoloths, and other fiends were unaging as far as anyone could tell. Changing the name of the type to (mortal) also decouples it from the Prime Material Plane, which means that a cambion can have it regardless of what plane he's born on, for example, and you can apply it to things like bariaurs without any questions needed to be asked. It simplifies the whole thing tremendously.

It also means any outsider with partially humanoid ancestry (like a half-fiend or a tiefling) is obviously (mortal) regardless of what plane they come from, so a tiefling born in Sigil, the Outlands, or Gehenna still has a soul and has to eat and drink like a normal humanoid would. 

(Extraplanar) is a subtype that can be applied to any type of creature, from undead to constructs to humanoids - it represents anyone not on the plane that they're from. A human from Ysgard is extraplanar when on Bytopia or the Material Plane, or any plane that isn't Ysgard. A human from the Material Plane is extraplanar when on Ysgard or Bytopia, or any plane that isn't the Prime Material. A demon from the Abyss is extraplanar on the Material Plane, the Astral Plane, or any plane that isn't the Abyss. 

Personally, I'd just say that a creature is "native" (by which I don't mean the native subtype)  to whichever plane they happen to be born on, as it seems simplest. If a slaad happens to be born on the Ethereal Plane, they're extraplanar everywhere but the Ethereal Plane. Others might disagree, though, and say the slaad is native to Limbo regardless of where it's born. This would suggest that humans are always native to the Material Plane, and considered extraplanar elsewhere, in which case your Ysgardian chick would be extraplanar on Ysgard, the plane she's from. I hate how complicated and unanswered these questions are, because it makes answering simple questions much harder than it should be. Pick a standard and stick with it, is my advice. 

Outsiders are... well, the official description is  what Bob the Efreet said it was, that they're "made at least in part from the substance of a plane other than the Material Plane." So a demon is an outsider because it's spawned from the substance of the Abyss, which is chaotic evil made solid. A deva is made from the substance of the Upper Planes by the gods. A genie is made from elemental substances rather than flesh. A bariaur is born from the essence of glory on the plane of Ysgard, a xill's body is made from the substance of the Ethereal Plane, and so on. Outsiders don't normally have to eat or drink, and they don't have souls separate from their bodies. It's probably more accurate to say that they are souls; they're spirits rather than beings made of true flesh, although they may seem fleshy. An outsider is extraplanar if it's not on its home plane, but it's not extraplanar if it's in its homeland. 

The problem with this description is it's not necessarily obvious what creatures are "made from the substance of a plane." I mean, you can just look at a monster's stats: if the stat block says they're an outsider, that's what they are, and they must therefore be made from the substance of some plane, somewhere. But for a lot of creatures, like xill and bariaurs, you wouldn't know this was true if you didn't see the stat block. A lot of it is pretty arbitrary. The Planewalker Campaign Setting doesn't make bariaurs outsiders, for example, and that works just as well (possibly better, though I like the flavor of them being celestial creatures born from glory instead of mortal goat-centaurs - the latter option makes me wonder what they're doing in the Outer Planes). 

Outsiders are creatures born from mortal souls, or from the gods, or myths and legends. They're outer planar spirits, the personifications of concepts and philosophies. They're good and evil, or law and chaos, made flesh. They're magic made solid. Some are spawned directly from an otherworldly landscape, and some of them are the spirits of the dead who have evolved into something new. They're made of belief. 

Extraplanar creatures are those who are on a plane that they don't belong in. They might be lost humans in the Ethereal Plane, or eladrins secretly manipulating events on the Prime. 

One thing I really like about 4th edition is that you don't have to worry about the outsider/extraplanar/native mess anymore.

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If you're born on, say,

If you're born on, say, Avernus, would you be considered extraplanar on another layer of Baator? Would a creature born on one level of the Abyss be considered extraplanar on another level? Or is it all lumped into the same plane?

 Also, what about moving between Primes? I DM a Planescape game in which the players constantly move between three Prime worlds. Are they extraplanar on the ones they aren't originally from?

One of the PCs doesn't even know what plane she came from. She's been wandering the planes for centuries, and has spent much more time in Sigil than her home plane, where ever it may be. Is it possible to be 'naturalized' to a plane?

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Every layer of a plane is

Every layer of a plane is considered part of the same plane. Every layer of Baator is still Baator.

Alternate Material Planes are considered different planes.  A character from the Bizarro Universe is extraplanar in the "normal" universe. 

Whether or not you can be "naturalized" to a plane is a good question, and one that I don't think is answered anywhere. 

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Thanks, that's been kind of

Thanks, that's been kind of a running issue with my games. And I suppose along that same line of thinking, if 'naturalization' is possible, then it would be possible to travel so many planes for so long that you no longer have a plane you can consider home, and thus, have the extraplanar subtype no matter where you go.

 A friend raises a good question: In the unlikely event that your plane of origin is completely destroyed, where would you be 'hedged'? Is this too unique a circumstance to set in stone a solid rule? It's been kind of a big issue with my games. What do you do with a hedged leShay, for instance?

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ripvanwormer

ripvanwormer wrote:
Alternate Material Planes are considered different planes.  A character from the Bizarro Universe is extraplanar in the "normal" universe.

Is this still true from a Spelljammer perspective? Is a character from Toril extraplanar on Oerth?

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No, Toril and Oerth exist

No, Toril and Oerth exist on the same Prime Material Plane, just in different crystal spheres/solar systems. In most cases, all D&D worlds are assumed to exist on the same Prime Material Plane, at least from a 2nd edition perspective. Moving from sphere to sphere, or from world to world on the Prime Material Plane, doesn't make you extraplanar. 

By "alternate Material Plane" I mean something like Uerth, from Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, which is exactly like Oerth except everyone's alignment is reversed (like Star Trek's mirror universe), and the Abeir-Toril split in 4th edition (which seems to be a planar one, though I suppose you could put Abeir in another sphere if you wanted to), and like a version of the universe where the illithid empire never fell (from Bruce Cordell's illithid trilogy), or like different versions of Earth (Gothic Earth from the Ravenloft campaign versus our own modern Earth, for example).  This sort of thing wasn't really accounted for in Planescape, but if you include it in your campaign, people from alternate or parallel universes or timelines would be considered extraplanar.

Sorry, I guess that wasn't clear. In most cases, characters from different Material worlds will not be extraplanar in regard to one another.

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That clears it up for me.

That clears it up for me. Thanks.

Still, though, where do hedged creatures go if their plane of origin is destroyed, eg leShay?

Also, can a creature be native to a pocket plane or a demiplane? Aren't most pocket planes only coterminous with the plane they were created from? So if you were native to a pocket plane in Baator, could you be hedged there from the Prime Material? Or would you just appear somewhere on Baator?

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My guess is that you can be

My guess is that you can be native to a pocket plane (for example, a phirblas would be banished to the demiplane of Inphirblau rather than to the Ethereal Plane that it connects to), and that if your home plane is destroyed, you end up being banished to whatever kind of void of nonexistence your home plane has become... which might be tricky to escape from (you might become a vestige).

Or you could invent a kind of "waiting room" for those who've been banished to planes that don't exist anymore, a unique plane created by the gods or Ancient Brethren or great powers for that purpose. You could use the World Serpent Inn or another planar tavern where leShay and other beings sit and drink ale until the door opens that brings them back. 

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The "what if my home plane

The "what if my home plane doesn't exist any more?" question is important to a game I'm planning right now, as the PCs will be from a plane that has been destroyed (the idea came from the plot hook PDF on this site). I solved the issue by saying that there is a (very) small part of the world still floating around in the astral plane (forming a sort of open-border demiplane if you will) where the PCs would end up in such a case, but that is a very campaign specific solution and the issue might need clarification.

A possbility is that the character would be banished to whatever place he would go should he die. So a particularly zelous Paladin would be banished to Celestia for example, or a traitorous evil assassin would be banished to Carceri. There are some obvious problems with this, but it sort of makes sense. When your soul loses its connection to your homeplane you go an outer plane (IE, you die). If there is no plane for your soul to stay connected to any more, it defaults to the outer planes since that is where it is supposed to go when it no longer can reside on your home plane.

moogle001's picture
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Joined: 2004-01-02
I don't think there can be

I don't think there can be a one-true answer for such a plot-specific event, but there are a number of good options.

The Astral makes sense, being the "back-stage" of the multiverse, and the bridge between manifestation and ideas. It also fits if you're saying the Astral touches all planes.

The Shadow Plane as described in the PSCS also fits. If a plane is destroyed and memory of it fades away, the Shadow will absorb what it was and what it could be. People banished to a plane that no longer exists would go to a plane that is and isn't, the Shadowlie.

Otherwise, I would say they end up on a random plane.

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