Changes to the Planes

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Unski's picture
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I'm not so sure if I like all of these ideas.

All of the Post-Faction War ideas sound good to me, sure, but then suddenly the Powers go berserk, a single Crystal Sphere is devoured, the Blood War gets its first truce, and then the gods are even banished from their own worlds, which they're supposed to uphold because the Overpowers tend to be lazy? I get the feeling that you don't like the Realms, nor the gods.

Ok, firstly using Ragnarok isn't really such a good idea. I mean according to the legend even before the final battle the sun is destroyed with the moon - and since were multi-Spheric, they might all blow up. End of Crystal Speheres unless the ice giants learn to resist the effects of nuclear winter and become cannibalistic.
Then there's ofcourse Jormungand, who'll be free to devastate the Planes, and according to the legend, only two people would survive Ragnarok - all the gods would die (though Balder and Höðr will return from the dead)

So, no. Just no. Killing away dozens of the gods isn't the right way if you ask me. And as I happen to like the Realms, destroying them doesn't really fill me with joy.

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'Unski' wrote:
I'm not so sure if I like all of these ideas.

All of the Post-Faction War ideas sound good to me, sure, but then suddenly the Powers go berserk, a single Crystal Sphere is devoured, the Blood War gets its first truce, and then the gods are even banished from their own worlds, which they're supposed to uphold because the Overpowers tend to be lazy? I get the feeling that you don't like the Realms, nor the gods.

Ok, firstly using Ragnarok isn't really such a good idea. I mean according to the legend even before the final battle the sun is destroyed with the moon - and since were multi-Spheric, they might all blow up. End of Crystal Speheres unless the ice giants learn to resist the effects of nuclear winter and become cannibalistic.
Then there's ofcourse Jormungand, who'll be free to devastate the Planes, and according to the legend, only two people would survive Ragnarok - all the gods would die (though Balder and Höðr will return from the dead)

So, no. Just no. Killing away dozens of the gods isn't the right way if you ask me. And as I happen to like the Realms, destroying them doesn't really fill me with joy.

Well, someone is feeling a little grumpy Laughing out loud If I didn't like gods, do you think I'd be on a Planescape forum?

For the point about Ragnorak, your assuming a literal, no-deviation or reinterpretation of the prophesies-prophesies that are very prime-centric and norse-centric. A post-Ragnorak Nordic pantheon would be a good opportunity to develop deities suitable for a modern setting while having a familiar framework to place them in.

The reason I want to have a Pantheon War is that the standard D&D setting is very uncondusive to the development of a modernized setting. High-level magic would stymie the need for technologal advancement, while the frequent involvement of deities in mortal affairs would either warp or hamper the emergence of modern thought. Obviously, the 'rules' on several prime spheres would have to be modified to allow a modern setting to emerge on the Outer Planes. The only way that could happen is if the current system leads to a major calamity.

As for the Realms getting wrecked, that wasn't originally my idea-someone else, in an earlier thread, decided to destroy it in a simple side note. While I'm not a 'Realms-hater' in any sense, the idea seemed to have potential as a piece of the 'storyline' and I decided to play with the idea a bit. Admittedly, your the only one who's been unhappy about it. Still, I'll give some thought on this as to how we should proceed.

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I like the idea of using Ragnarok. And I agree that it doesn't have to be a literal, exact occurence of Ragnarok as described in Norse myth - how often has Planescape taken a real-world myth and then warped it to suit its own purposes? I do think having some sort of Fimbulwinter would be nice, though, just because I think 'Fimbulwinter' is a really cool word.

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Isn't that mentioned in someone's write-up of Fenris' prison-realm on Canceri?

Anyway, here is the next epoch:

The Age of Pain: That, of course, means the Lady of Pain. In this era, Sigil pulls back at a Multiverse that was accustomed to tugging on the City of Doors. For a period that's fondly remembered by future generations, the guilds and factions in the Cages start thinking of themselves as Sigilians first. The most impressive momuments in the Lady's Ward are built. Many cutters suspect the Lady was involved in creating this golden age. More certain is her role in ending it, when Her Serenity's Pardon dumped every mazed sod back onto the streets (not hard to figure out what happens next).
-The Chinese Pantheon, which remained neutral in the Pantheon War, rises to prominence.
-The Modron withdraw into Regulus, which becomes sealed off from the rest of Mechanus.
-Primes from the Eberron campaign begin to be seen on the Great Wheel.
-First recorded contact with the Fraal.
-A dispute in succession within the City of Brass leads to a Civil War amongst the Efreeti.
-Demogorgon begins 'experimenting' on Illithids and other Aberrations.

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What if the elemental plane of Fire were the 'sun' being swallowed? I've been playing towards that in a PBEM I'm running.

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Yeah. I have a 'fun' place to send some hapless PC's soon. Eye-wink

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'Ulden Throatbane' wrote:
Isn't that mentioned in someone's write-up of Fenris' prison-realm on Canceri?

Anyway, here is the next epoch:

The Age of Pain: That, of course, means the Lady of Pain. In this era, Sigil pulls back at a Multiverse that was accustomed to tugging on the City of Doors. For a period that's fondly remembered by future generations, the guilds and factions in the Cages start thinking of themselves as Sigilians first. The most impressive momuments in the Lady's Ward are built. Many cutters suspect the Lady was involved in creating this golden age. More certain is her role in ending it, when Her Serenity's Pardon dumped every mazed sod back onto the streets (not hard to figure out what happens next).

(more stuff)

-The Modron withdraw into Regulus, which becomes sealed off from the rest of Mechanus.

The first quoted point sounds interesting, but a bit unclear. In what way do the Factions begin thinking of themselves as Sigilians first? Many of them potentially would have home bases off Sigil, and while I can see the idea of a 'golden age' where everyone admires the works from the period, I don't quite figure out if you are trying to imply Faction cooperation.

Does the second of the points I've quoted mean a near-total withdrawal of the Modrons from the rest of the Planes? Or is there something I'm missing? Is there supposed to be any specific reason why the Modrons and Regulus withdrew?

The other points are interesting and make some degree of sense. I especially like the idea of a civil war within the elemental planes, as well as the rise of more pantheons to power amongst the planes.

Random Speculation:
If a catastrophe is truly needed to shake up the Planes, one potential catastrophe for the Outer Planes is the loss of belief. There's a famous quote that "Any sufficiently advanced technology is is indistinguishable from magic." There's also a joking corollary that the converse could also be true: "Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology." If Primes are discovered that have experienced a great deal of technological innovation without the presence of magic, or ones that have blended technology and magic and have taken both to a high level, their new presence on the Planes might be enough to alter belief considerably, serving as a "wake-up call" to the inhabitants of other planes, and perhaps fermenting a disbelief in magic. Essentially, it could throw the Outer Planes into disorder, until either belief in both magic AND technology became common and stabilized the Planes at a different technical level than the previous, or simply acted as an extinction event for the whole of the Outer Planes. (which wouldn't be the case, of course, for the storyline of UP)

Since the official storyline has the introduction of formerly nearly magic-less Primes to the Planes, and thus, the introduction of technology to the Planes and magic to the Primes, there's an instant 'in' to this class of storyline effect. It also means that the the Githyanki invasion could have been either planned to produce this kind of havoc (something the Yugoloths might have done, by influencing the illithids) or that it was essentially an entirely unintentional side-effect which ended up being stronger in terms of changes than the intentional one. The Athar, , were they to learn of the actual history would probably be quite interested, as would most of the planar powers, gods, and cosmic entities that have vested interests in various planar happenings.

The Athar, if they're still around, might even go so far as to be aligned with the Doomguard and the Dustmen as a result of this. I could see at least some of them them renouncing magic and technology as extensions of the deceptions of the planar powers... Now not only are some viewed as heretics, but as luddites, and as almost pathologically unwilling to accept anything they don't directly sense as truth. Of course, that might lead to a splitting of the theist and atheist factions into separate factions too. The Doomguard would take this as simply another sign of the inevitable decay and entropy of life, and probably wouldn't be terribly affected by this, I would think or at least I feel they would be the least affected overall of the factions, though they might change quite a bit visibly. The Dusties might take it in a positive manner, feeling that it meant that they are one step closer to True Death. The other factions might be affected, but not in manners as central to the core tenets, save for perhaps the Xaositects, and some of the Sensates and the more disbelieving of the Athar are perhaps likely to join into a new faction with aspects of both.

As a result, you could start with the characters in their D&D forms, and suddenly, there's a new "history" which everyone remembers, faintly, but as if it happened a long time ago, which subjectively, it would have. THe stuff they personally did is recalled in it's "new" form, which would be appropriately modern, while famous exploits are recalled in tales and song. Characters would believe that they are descendents of the medieval-like era versions of themselves. People's plots and the like would simply have updated themselves, as well as deities and powers formed by the presence of the planes. Most beings wouldn't change in terms of their essential natures, but perhaps the exact particulars might change. Paladins might become a soldier with some divine training, and some more technologically-minded arcanists might become masters of the technical arts.

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You said first record of Nexus, right? Does that mean that you approve my idea for the demiplane-city of Nexus?

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'Terra Nova' wrote:
You said first record of Nexus, right? Does that mean that you approve my idea for the demiplane-city of Nexus?

I never realized my approval was even needed Sticking out tongue

But seriously, I think there is a distinct need for new urban areas on all the planes. And I must admit that there is a lot of potential with Nexus-if a balance can be set between "Cosmological free-for-all" and "The Lady Godwins all interlopers," it could be a great addition to the setting.

Kestral-The 'point' your missing is that I put that post up late at night, so I didn't take the time to elaborate on the Sigilian Golden Age, other than the fact that there was one. Also, the Modron withdrawl would have made more sense if I had posted what happens in the next epoch.

Another point I forgot to take note of is during the Golden Age, the New Norse Pantheon begins to take its 'modern' shape, with mortal Norse heroes, smaller pantheons, and gods from original D&D settings filling the void left by the scragged deities.

Edit-By the way, the Astral War is still going to be included in this storyline, only it will much different from its original form. (stay tuned!)

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'Ulden Throatbane' wrote:
'Terra Nova' wrote:
You said first record of Nexus, right? Does that mean that you approve my idea for the demiplane-city of Nexus?

I never realized my approval was even needed Sticking out tongue

But seriously, I think there is a distinct need for new urban areas on all the planes. And I must admit that there is a lot of potential with Nexus-if a balance can be set between "Cosmological free-for-all" and "The Lady Godwins all interlopers," it could be a great addition to the setting.

Kestral-The 'point' your missing is that I put that post up late at night, so I didn't take the time to elaborate on the Sigilian Golden Age, other than the fact that there was one. Also, the Modron withdrawl would have made more sense if I had posted what happens in the next epoch.

Another point I forgot to take note of is during the Golden Age, the New Norse Pantheon begins to take its 'modern' shape, with mortal Norse heroes, smaller pantheons, and gods from original D&D settings filling the void left by the scragged deities.

Edit-By the way, the Astral War is still going to be included in this storyline, only it will much different from its original form. (stay tuned!)

No problem about the entire Golden Age thing. I just wanted some clarification. If it's coming, that's great. I'm willing to wait. I didn't know if the idea as presented was the whole, or if there was more. I'm glad to hear there's more.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing the Nexus get bashed into a UP/PS3E suitable form, just so that there can be a official neutral city not tied to a specific plane of alignment other than Sigil that doesn't have the issues associated with Union. In a lot of ways, Union and the Nexus are somewhat close thematically in their origins. (Demiplane, merchants control much of the power..., people come mostly to buy/sell goods, it's a planar center of trade) Once there's a consensus on how the so far wonky power-structure works, then Nexus becomes a lot more attractive as a way of providing an alternate rival to Sigil to replace Union.

Ulden: I'll be interested to see how the Astral War storyline has developed. I'm of the opinion that it wasn't directly needed for my story idea to work, but I'm also interested in seeing the ideas of others on how the planes have become more like our world. I'm not saying mine's spectacularly good, just that it was one of MANY viable options (and in PS, where mages squabble about the history of the planes as a matter of course, does the reality of any given option particularly matter in the end, as long as people are convinced it is how the planes work?) that might fit some of the aspects of the Outer and Inner Planes well. Essentially, there's any number of reasons why a loss of faith would have happened. The Astral War is only one among many, and was the one I knew about.

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'Ulden Throatbane' wrote:

Well, someone is feeling a little grumpy Laughing out loud If I didn't like gods, do you think I'd be on a Planescape forum?

You're right ofcourse. Sorry if I seemed a bit hostile, that wasn't my intention. I was just rather uncertain, and since english isn't my main language, I sometimes have great difficulties getting my thoughts through the way I want them to get through.

Quote:
For the point about Ragnorak, your assuming a literal, no-deviation or reinterpretation of the prophesies-prophesies that are very prime-centric and norse-centric. A post-Ragnorak Nordic pantheon would be a good opportunity to develop deities suitable for a modern setting while having a familiar framework to place them in.

A non-literal Ragnarok, eh? Hmm, when you put it that way.
And let's say for a moment that some Norse gods would dissappear - this would still leave the power vacuum, which would have to be filled with either another deity or a set of new deities altogether. Belief needs to find its home, and all that. I'm sure Terry Pratchett's novels could explain it far better.
But now that you mention it, a customized Ragnarok could be used to usher the Nordic pantheon to the 21st century. Evolve or die for them, so to speak.

Quote:
The reason I want to have a Pantheon War is that the standard D&D setting is very uncondusive to the development of a modernized setting. High-level magic would stymie the need for technologal advancement, while the frequent involvement of deities in mortal affairs would either warp or hamper the emergence of modern thought. Obviously, the 'rules' on several prime spheres would have to be modified to allow a modern setting to emerge on the Outer Planes. The only way that could happen is if the current system leads to a major calamity.

Now I'm starting to understand why such an event or something akin to it would be needed. And you are right, the Prime worlds are notoriously set to the fantasy era of sword and magic - the Realms even have an explanation for it somewhere.

Though, if the sudden industrialization would start in the planes instead of the Prime spheres, the Primes would be forced to follow, or witness the attacks of Baatezu platoons with sniper rifles and assault rifles.

Quote:
As for the Realms getting wrecked, that wasn't originally my idea-someone else, in an earlier thread, decided to destroy it in a simple side note. While I'm not a 'Realms-hater' in any sense, the idea seemed to have potential as a piece of the 'storyline' and I decided to play with the idea a bit. Admittedly, your the only one who's been unhappy about it. Still, I'll give some thought on this as to how we should proceed.

Yes, I noticed that sidenote. Apparently someone in a position to make such decisions, too. But though the Realms do have some things people find annoying - the Chosen, Mystra giving Asmodeus the laugh (though WAS IT Asmodeus after all?) - it's the campaign setting that first got me into roleplaying, and then lead me to the planes.
And since it is one of the most fleshed out of the Primes, and one with a large variety of deities and other elements that have affected the planes in small ways, I think it's a waste to throw them away.
Maybe customize and change even heavy handedly, but total doom in the angry hands of Asmodeus would IMO be an overkill.

And sorry again, I should've waited for more info before starting to type. Now that your idea's are more fleshed out, I'm starting to like them.

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'Ulden Throatbane' wrote:
The reason I want to have a Pantheon War is that the standard D&D setting is very uncondusive to the development of a modernized setting. High-level magic would stymie the need for technologal advancement, while the frequent involvement of deities in mortal affairs would either warp or hamper the emergence of modern thought. Obviously, the 'rules' on several prime spheres would have to be modified to allow a modern setting to emerge on the Outer Planes. The only way that could happen is if the current system leads to a major calamity.

Do note my boldface, please.

Hampering the emergence of modern thought, no.
Warping it, now.....that could be worked with, I think. Preserves a certain amount of style, IMO.

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Thanks for coming around, Unski! Smiling

I concede that "Total Doom to FR" would be overkill, and it simply answers one example of fanboyism (mystra pwns lol) with one that is just as obnoxious (asmodeus pwns lol). Mabye we can downgrade to "partial doom" or "impending doom." Sticking out tongue

The problem with modernization coming from the Outer Planes is that the Outer Planes does not so much create beliefs and ideas as they magnify them to the nth degree. While powers and cosmic entities can play a huge role in influencing beliefs, original concepts must first be promoted on the Prime. If such concepts become widespread, then they manifest on the Great Wheel.

Kestral-There is one problem with the scenario you've outlined:

1-Mental Frame of Reference: Humans develop a 'mental frame of reference' with regards to persons, places and things they encounter in their lives, and any new information is interpreted within this frame. We do this in order to help us interpret what we observe, but it has the side effect of blinding us to evidence that our initial assumptions are incorrect. For example, most cagers assume that A'kin's "Friendly Fiend" demeanor is a clever ruse. Why? Because he's a 'loth, and everyone "knows" that all 'loths are scheming liars. It would take a lot of interaction with A'kin for a cutter to adjust their mental frame for him, and even if they do, the change will only apply to A'kin-the rest of his kind are still bad news.

This presents a problem to anyone trying to change the Outer Planes by showing them evidence that their beliefs are faulty. Instead, the planars will adjust the evidence to fit their frame of reference. Only a gradual and/or overwhelming demonstration of the fallacy of existing assumptions can alter the Frame itself.

Also, its important to remember that the best way ideas are transmitted from the Prime to the Great Wheel is through belief. If we accept this premise, then change of the Planes will closely follow changes on the Primes. Thus, by the time significant numbers of Primes coming to Sigil are from modern spheres, the Outer Planes wil themselves be modernized.

As for your point about there not having to be an official history, I agree to a point. Unlike Planescape 2e, though, there is a definate point of reference UP has to work with. Thus, as we change one aspect of the setting, we need to see how they fit wtih the other changes we make. I think the smoothest way we can do this is to establish, behind the scenes, the how and when these changes occur. So it's not so much an "official history" as it is a "secret history"-players and GMs playing in UP don't have to know about it, but they still have the benefit of a setting that sticks to its own internal logic.

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'Ulden Throatbane' wrote:
Thanks for coming around, Unski! Smiling

I concede that "Total Doom to FR" would be overkill, and it simply answers one example of fanboyism (mystra pwns lol) with one that is just as obnoxious (asmodeus pwns lol). Mabye we can downgrade to "partial doom" or "impending doom." Sticking out tongue

Thanks for not taking it personally!

For the "impending doom" if we include the Baatezu, killing Gargauth (the self-styled Lord of the Tenth) for his lack of learning about who's really the boss, taking over his little cult, masquerading as him to lure Bane into a diabolic pact, which then opens a pathway for the Baatezu to enter that Prime without Bane even knowing that the real mind behind this is the Overlord himself.

Quote:
The problem with modernization coming from the Outer Planes is that the Outer Planes does not so much create beliefs and ideas as they magnify them to the nth degree. While powers and cosmic entities can play a huge role in influencing beliefs, original concepts must first be promoted on the Prime. If such concepts become widespread, then they manifest on the Great Wheel.

Yes, but I mostly meant that couldn't a Faction or a group of mortals out in the Planes (read: in the Outlands next to the Spire) take the first steps towards industrialization with an invention or two, then slowly start to transport them to various Prime Spheres?
If the Powers have a Prohibition law against technology on their representative Primes, then we just have to come up with our Capone, eh? Smiling
Or has Earth already officially been elected as the starter, and therefore as a new part of Planescape?

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I'm with Earth and other Shadow Primes that were regaining magic, and had modern (or better) levels of technology emerging onto the planes (i.e. the Astral War story).

Primes with Nuclear rockets controlling their entire sphere (something we're actually capable of doing safely today, and something that hasn't happened largely because of the hysteria surrounding nuclear technology in our society), cyberpunk primes, steampunk primes, and so on.

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The majority on the previous thread covering the subject of the origin of tech indicated that folks pretty much didn't want to see Earth itself in there. Primes, sure, but our Earth? No. Found the thread.

Personally I think if we don't focus it on earth nessecarily then it'll be a lot easier to retain the planescape feel, and allow people who *do* want to run an earth centric game their ability to focus on it that way.

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Actually, most of the people that voted were for Earth. 75% in fact. 50% were for alternate dimension Earths, as well. Stop lieing.

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O....kay. Nevermind then.

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'nick012000' wrote:
Actually, most of the people that voted were for Earth. 75% in fact. 50% were for alternate dimension Earths, as well. Stop lieing.

Bah, votes are meant to be ignored! Sticking out tongue

Seriously, though, I believe the real reason Earth is being ignored was well elaborated in this thread.

(as much as I love Watashi's quip at the bottom, I fear putting in my sig won't make too many friends among the mods)

/durka, durka

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'nick012000' wrote:
Actually, most of the people that voted were for Earth. 75% in fact. 50% were for alternate dimension Earths, as well. Stop lieing.

You appear to be misconstruing the data. Which is very similar to lying. Only 25% of the votes were actually for including Earth. The 50% "alternate dimension earths" were, in fact, not votes for Earth. The option was "I think there would be several "Earths" and clueless primes often use the word thinking that theirs is the only one.", which suggests that 'Earth' as a concept would not necessarily include the 'Earth' we live on (although it certainly could).

And I might have been nicer about this, but you were arbitrarily berating Clueless.

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Getting back to the topic of the thread-the next epoch is the Revelationary Era (play on "Revolutionary Era"), and encompases the transformation of the Planes to their modernized form. Because the history of this era is better preserved, I'm breaking it into early and late periods.

Early Revelationary Era:
-The Astral War begins. The Githyanki, forseeing that the Harmonium will topple their dominance of the silvery void, lay siege to Ortho.
-Dwarves and Gnomes begin settling the Elemental Plane of Earth en masse.
-War of Sun and Dragon: competition for worshipers leads to open conflict between the Japanese and Chinese Pantheons.
-The first factory apprears in Bytopia.
-Skeolah is overthrown by Levistus/Leviathan.
-Monotheist religions gain prominence in the Cosmos.

Late Revelationary Era
-The Harmonium makes an alliance with the Fraal. Together, they beat back the Githyanki.
-War of Hope and Malice is fought between the Guardinals and the 'loths.
-The Elven Pantheon relocates to the Beastland
-Mechanus Reloaded: The Modrons complete their project, leading to the reforming of Mechanus into a more modern format
-On the great wheel, monotheist religions coalese around "common teachings."
-Cyberspace is formed.
-First Contact with the T'sa.

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Please don't forget about my Redeemer faction. I should be doing a draft for it anytime soon.

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'Bob the Efreet' wrote:
'nick012000' wrote:
Actually, most of the people that voted were for Earth. 75% in fact. 50% were for alternate dimension Earths, as well. Stop lieing.

You appear to be misconstruing the data. Which is very similar to lying. Only 25% of the votes were actually for including Earth. The 50% "alternate dimension earths" were, in fact, not votes for Earth. The option was "I think there would be several "Earths" and clueless primes often use the word thinking that theirs is the only one.", which suggests that 'Earth' as a concept would not necessarily include the 'Earth' we live on (although it certainly could).

And I might have been nicer about this, but you were arbitrarily berating Clueless.

Alternate Earths includes the one we live on, berk! Are you stupid, or just blind? It's just that it also includes a bunch of alternates, as well as completely different Primes of similar technology and lack of magic. Only someone who's blatently ignoring that blindingly obvious fact could possibly interpret the data any other way.

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Ok, look. I'd hoped the discussion wouldn't head off in this direction - but it has. Being civil and not insulting each other is part of the guidelines for posting here. I think you're taking this a little too close to heart, getting upset, and really need to step back and take a deep breath. The biggest thing to remember is, you're not going to convince anyone that you're right by brownbeating them. The more you do that the less likely you are to convince anyone of anything.

All I'm asking from you at this point, is to chill. There's no reason for this to blow up into a fight (and if it does I'd have to get out my moderator hat and I don't really like doing that). I know you may or may not like me at this point, but keeping the conversation civil on the forums is what my job here is - so I have to step in regardless. I hope you'll understand that, as I'm asking you to take a break and relax, come back to the debate when you're calmer.

After all, it's just a forum - it's not worth getting steamed about.

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'ulden throatbane' wrote:
Cyberspace is formed

I like most of the outline history. Indeed, my only issue with this is that as a new plane, cyberspace should probably be discovered. Stylistically, 'discovered' raises questions where 'formed' gives answers - and questions are a good part of what drives plots.

And so continues the reply notification spam. If it's getting truly hideous, sorry, all.

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Whom are the T'sa?

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Changes to the Planes

'Ulden Throatbane' wrote:
I concede that "Total Doom to FR" would be overkill, and it simply answers one example of fanboyism (mystra pwns lol) with one that is just as obnoxious (asmodeus pwns lol). Mabye we can downgrade to "partial doom" or "impending doom." Sticking out tongue

I would vote for a "partial doom", of being sucked off through the shadow plane and forming its own cosmology. It fits with the canon that has been established for FR in 3e.

It is no longer easily reachable from the PS cosmology, but it still exists, if you can find your way through the shadow plane to get there. (And there might even be some shadow portals that still work that lead there directly.)

This kind of thing also allows for some interesting storyline of what happens to some of the gods when a large number of their followers dissappear from the known multiverse.

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Changes to the Planes

'WithoutNationality' wrote:
Whom are the T'sa?

The t'sa are a race of small, lizardlike mechanics, from the Stardrive setting. This is also the origin of the fraal.

And it's who are the t'sa, not whom. Sorry, but grammatical errors make me itch.

Kal
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Changes to the Planes

Hey all. I've writtern a history of the changes that the multiverse goes through, trying to use what has been posted here and elsewhere. Just a heads up, I'm not a huge canon sage, so somethings may not fit quite right, but this is a draft i did today and want to get some feedback on (and see if the ball is still rolling for UPS Puzzled ) After the main text, i'll explain a bit more about some of the decisions in the text, anyways, here it is so far......................
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Ragnorok was it. It was the driving force that changed the planes…forever. It started with Illithids. A conclave of elder brains sort to bring eternal twilight to the prime worlds so that their kind could dominate the surface worlds. They used long forgotten magitech (spell jammers) to fly to the suns themselves. They sucked the fires from those suns and unknowly plunged the entire multiverse into winter. Though their plans were stopped before they could finish their schemes, the damage hand been done. Winter enveloped the prime worlds. Prophecy came to pass, paranoia crept through mortal and immortal alike and Loki brang Baldr low.

Overwhelming belief that Ragnorok had come brings about Ragnorok. The Powers disappeared over night from the Great Wheel. Quickly, they are found upon the prime worlds, still powerful, but now mortal! Opportunity knocks, old rivalry’s from millennia past now find themselves being played out with very permanent consequences. Rumours spread that to cure the long winter, those once Powers must be struck down so a new dawn may rise. The outsiders, seeing their former masters in such positions can not sit ideally by. They break the Celestial Compact and descend to the prime worlds. Some to protect their former masters, others to kill them. The blood war quickly finds new battlefields and new recruits upon the primes. The snows of winter are turned red with blood, Powers, Primes, Proxies, it matters not.

With their attention given fully to their battles, the outsiders forget the reasoning behind the Celestial Compact. The crystal spheres that protect the prime worlds can not withstand the cosmic energies of those beings. And so, what none thought would ever come to pass happens. The crystal sphere crack and shatter! The Phylon that the crystal spheres have held at bay since time immoral surges across the worlds of the prime material plane like a great Tsunami. With it comes wild magic, wild magic of the likes never seen in the memory of many of the Powers. It warps the very worlds, where moments before the long winter with its biting winds was chilling the bones from a weary warrior, the worlds now exploded with summer winds, spring rains and autumn fogs, sometimes simultaneously. The skies above their worlds cascade in a concoughanyof colours, blocking out the sun, the moon and the stars themselves. Where the battle lines had been forming, they were now in chaos once more, as Powers, Primes and Planars find themselves in a wash of anarchy as the magics transforms allies and enemies into shapeless monsters of madness. Upon the Great Wheel, the only sign of the troubles upon the prime is that all mirrors upon the Great Wheel shatter simultaneously. Later, as wild magic begins to seep into the Great Wheel with the deaths of those upon the primes, the Modrons monitor its increases, and then, as one, return to Regulas and shut down.

The prime worlds endure the chaos. The wild magic do allow a few of the Powers to regain their divine heritage and return to the Great Wheel. But even there, they realise the true extent of Ragnorok. The prime has been devastated, mortals hang on to life on the fringes of their worlds. The returning Powers quickly reinact the Celestial Compact, in a desperate bid to stop the warring. It works, for the most part, but, its too little too late for most mortals. As they attempt to recreate some sense of civilisation, they hold the Powers and magic as responsible for the devastation of their worlds. Magic is still a dangerous force, one which few if any attempt to manipulate.

The skies begin to return, the wild magics dissipating, but the stars that greet the weary survivors are not the same as their ancestors once knew, as the warping effect of the crystal spheres on distant stars is no longer there. Many mortals abandon the Powers, turning to the immediate problem of surviving. In the millennia to come, many mortals turn to Monotheism and philosophy based beliefs, but enough continue to remember the remaining Powers for them to endure.

Upon the Great Wheel, the blood war returns to the lower planes, as Bataazu strike forces use the open planes of Hades and Genhenna to hit deep into the abyss, forcing the Tanaari to meet them in battle on the lower planes, instead of the shattered prime worlds. In Sigil, the Lady’s decree is lifted and factions return to the city. The Great Wheel begins to feel the effects of the wild magic upon the prime worlds, as portals to the primes become more unpredictable and in the Astral, its silvery void becomes stormy and unstable. The Githyanki endure the changes to the Astral, using it to become stronger. The Harmonium, using their newly restored access to Sigil, use it to resupply and support their ravaged homeworld of Ortho. As the portals to and from the prime world are so rough, the Harmonium use Astral ships to navigate the silvery viod to bring large supply vessels to Ortho. The Githyanki, seeing their dominance of the Astral being challenged by the Harmonium, first resort to piracy against the shipping lanes and then launch a full scale invasion of Ortho. And though the Githyanki warrior mages can not employ their full range of abilities upon the prime, the Githyanki make deep thrusts into Ortho’s fragile, recovering civilisation. It is only with an alliance with the Fraal that the Harmonium endures the Githyanki attacks and then eventually drive them back into the Astral, though the Harmonium and Fraal take too many causalities to pursue their enemy, and their resources were still needed to continue to restore Ortho.

Back upon the primes what began as Monotheism slowly grows into what the less educated perceive as a god and so the Great Wheel slowly recovers with new Powers forming. However, these new Powers are unlike their predecessors, as their worshippers have had to turn to technology, instead of magic, to survive their dangerous worlds, even though during the intervening millennia, magic has once more stabilised. With the subsidence of wild magic upon the prime and with the most orderly primes being at the forefront of the this technological innovation, Regulas finally reboots, and the Modrons return to the Great Wheel. Regulas has been updated far beyond what most primes worlds have achieved technological, with the Modrons also being sufficiently advanced. There return marks what most sages consider to be the beginning of the technological era upon the Great Wheel. With more modern powers that are familiar with technology and with the stabilising of the wild magics, making the portals to an from the primes more stable once more, the Great Wheel once more sees an increase in primes travelling (mostly inadvertently originally) to explore the cosmo, bringing with them their technology and beliefs.
_________________________________________________________

So then, erm, i guess point one. The shattering of crystal spheres. One, it gives me a way to introduce loads of wild magic to the primes without using limbo as a source, plus it allows 'modern' technological exploration of space like in the real world. I have very little knowledge of spell jamming, but I hope what i wrote is acceptable from that point. Having it linked to shattering of mirrors on the Great Wheel is a vague hope of trying to tie some UPS backstory in with the new post faction war stuff just started up after gencon.

Point two, I figured excessive wild magic would be a very good reason why not to use magic, but instead look to technology. Simple.

Ragnorok - like the use of it, and included FR time of troubles (as time lines of campagins arent all at point C, you could use this event as ToT on Faerun) style to give a way of removing a lot of the old patheons, allowing new, indepentent powers a way in (which i think would help UPS - as i dont think tight pantheons would exsist so much)

Celestial Compact - I view this as outsiders need special rituals (summoning magic) to 'contain' their powerful essences on the primes worlds to stop them overloading them. When they descend to the primes without those rituals (even LGs, as they put some proities higher than others) this gives me a way to crack the spheres without one big uber bad guy doing it.

The blood war - i didnt like that it stopped. Instead having it really spill out on the primes seems bad enough, then its the Bataazu (lawful) who force it back onto the outer planes.

Githyanki - i think having a Astral pirate angle is cool. You might have guessed that I have no idea about the Astral war stuff done or who the Fraal or T'sua are hope what I came up with is alright fomr that point???

Modrons - i say their more advanced, cos, well their modrons. I didnt want to decsribe them though, as I'm not sure if they shouold be bio-clockwork construct (steampunk), bioelectrical (cybrogs) or just classic modrons...

The advanced tech bit - I figure that the 'modern' level of tech is the average tech level of the primes and is the most easily achievable - and when it works, why bother fixing it, hence its the most common, but there are different levels of tech, as i feel this gives GMs and players the freedom to create more varying stories within the setting.

The war of hope and malice - no idea what that is, so i left it out atm....

Again, a lot of the pantheon stuff i left out as i feel that 'racial' pantheons shouldnt be and as writiers, including even past earth pantheons is treading on thin ice a bit and I feel that we have an opportunity to create new and interesting powers anyways, might as well make use of it.

Also, the Skeolah bit i have no clue about.

I love the idea of a cyberspace plane, just didnt think it needed to be in that text and nexus, im not really clued up enough about....

final point, having the primes hit hard gives the opportunity to link in the rumoured 4e core setting (ignoring its cosmo tho) - which is point of lights within the darkness (or so such odd description of lots of wilderness and few hubs of civilisation here and there).

well, thats it, i some folks with give me feedback on it.....

Kal

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Changes to the Planes

From post entitled The Illithids [url]/forum]...

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According to conflicting in character sources, they were either mutated humans who were shunned as freaks and sent underground, or created thralls for the humans who had escaped slavery and fled underground. Underground, they developed psionic powers. They began gathering power and forces to retake the surface, but upon emerging, found the sphere's humans already fleeing from a demonic invasion of the crystal sphere. The Illithids cried out, and Ilsensine answered, driving the demons the demons back to the abyss and causing a cataclysm that devastated what was left of the sphere's planets.
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What was left of the Astromundi Cluster's population picked up what was left and went on with their lives. A while later, the illithids emerged as a major power in the sphere and put into motion a plot to blot out the sun in order to crush their enemies, the Antilan Sun Mages, and make surface life more comfortable.

-Spiteful Crow

================================
Ok, heres where it gets alil tricky...

So lets say this calling occurs, the demons are repulsed, *something bad happens-hopefully more detail to come*, and life goes on...

Later, the return as a major power with plan to blot out the sun.... Now, lets be serious here... this is DnD.... They dont succeed- someone busts up in their deal, breaks their shit, kills their smart guys, WHATEVER... The Illithid are weakened, but still pretty smart and powerful (all things considered...).... Now, they have this plan to blot out the sun, but EVERY TIME they try it, some other son of a bitch comes along and mucks it up or trashes their shit.... Its gotta be frustrating....

Easy to imagine a few of the Illthid elite sitting around a couple juicy brains like hmmmm.... Lucky for them, they got these things that are REALLY good at thinking; theyre giant brains after all.... And one of these brains, gets a WHOPPER of an idea....

Fenris the Wolf is the answer.

The wait, gathering their forces and their power, scouring the depths of Agathion on Pandemoniun (it was THEM, infact, that opened the hole that ended said Plane; but few know this) for artifacts and powers that might aid their cause.

They learned the nature of the 'golden leash' and forged their own; using dwarven thralls to complete their labor.

Finally, oppurtunity shined on them.

When the beast slipped its chain and fled to the Material; they sought it out and called upon Ilsensine once again- this time to place the chain upon the creature's neck. The dark power accomplished its task, but was killed and consumed by the Wolf in the process. Still- the Illithids had their sun killer.

They took the idea of their God's death relatively well, all things considered- they had enough technological know-how that they believed themselves able to live on with ease.

Arrogance always was the Illithid's downfall- this time it would be no different.

Bending the Wolf to their will, they almost literally 'fed' it the suns themselves. Strangely enough this beast didnt seem to fight as much as one would expect- it was almost as if it knew what was coming next.

The God's sent their avatars to recapture Fenris; but to no avail. Something bordering panic began to spread- where was the Chaos Hound? And where was her father?! Loki having disappeared from Asgard only days prior.

As the suns began to fall, and the Primes fall into winter and chaos, the Illithid sought to conceal their newly found prize- no telling when a sun eatter would come to use again.

Fools that they truly are though (mere mortals), the brought Fenris to Pandemonium- unaware of her fathers presence in Winter's Hall; some say awaiting her arrival.

When the prize arrived, Loki appeared and the beast fought all the more vigorously; the resulting magic breaking Agathion wide open and releasing the Plane eatting horror the resulted in the forming of the Pandemonium we know today (see The Endless Sewers of Erebus post).

Both Loki and the wolf immediately traveled to Asgard; where the norse powers (including Baldur and Odin) were in commune. With no warning, the pair appeared- Fensir leaping out and striking Odin mortally; Loki leaping upon his old foe Baldur, crippling him with a magically enchanted spear of mistletoe- coated with a foul poison the Illithid had culled from Agathion, locked away for its virulence against the divine beings.

Freke and Gere, the old wolves of Odin, tried to stop the attack; but were simultaneously consumed in the maw of Fenris- feeding upon countless stars and the Illithid God had made her a terrifying creature; even amongst the Gods.

As Fensir began to consume Odin, Loki finished it- severing the magestic head of Baldur.

The Suns are gone, the moons whirling off into oblivion in response. Hati Hrodvitnisson and Skoll, offspring of Fensir, instead arrive on the Material Plane; as does their progenitor. Loki remains MIA.

With the death of Odin, the norse powers clash for power- his remains can be seen in the Astral; expelled by Fensir prior entering the Material.

The Primes, locked in dark, deepening winter as their planets die- the death of Baldur robs them of their beauty and spark; the mortal world dropping into a dull, ugly droll. Mortal life becomes suffering and terrible, everyone turning on each other. The wolf and his offspring travel the Prime, consuming entire worlds and their people.

On the Great Wheel, word of the event spreads like wildfire- the result being, as Kal said

"Overwhelming belief that Ragnorok had come brings about Ragnorok. The Powers disappeared over night from the Great Wheel. Quickly, they are found upon the prime worlds, still powerful, but now mortal! "

The outsiders move in, not only to fell and protect their former deitys; but also to hunt down and destroy Fenris- before His eye should turn towards the Great Wheel in search of new prey. The only divine being still roaring with Power; Fenris seems unstoppable.

The crystal spheres shatter. Wild magic courses outward in a wave. Fensir is utterly destroyed- that or she simply disappeared from existence, as her presence seemed to vanish almost instantly.

...*see Changes to the Planes post, by Kal*

As for the Illithid, they suffer through Ragnarok just like the rest; albeit enjoying the lack of a sun on some level.

Even so, their empirical plans are wrecked... for now....

(In this way, I think Ragnarok is explained abit more fully indetail; as well as not trashing the 'Mind Flayer-Time Travel-Future Empire" deal from LoM)
--------------------------------------------------
Im glad you liked it

As far as the time paradox thing ( know what you mean- schools a bitch and my brain feels like a its twitching), Id say either the unity of rings deal or that these are the mind flayers usually encountered- the ones that, at some point, came back to before the classic DnD present and did the Gith deal.

This is during their slow and eventual climb to becoming that world spanning empire that threatened the Blood War- which, in turn, would probably not be for quite some time in the future. In turn, THIS group of mind flayers will not make their fated trip into the future for quite some time..... whats very unclear is, how far down the line did this end? I mean, using unity of rings (what I think that means at least) havent the Mind Flayers basically just been leap frogging backwards for who-really-knows how long?

Like, lets consider Mind Flayer group A; their basic creation..... they do the whole hiding underground thing and return.... at some point in that timeline Mind Flayer group A goes into the past.....

They now become Mind Flayer Group B. Now, Mind Flayer Group B works its way along, creating and mucking up with the Gith, eventually reaching classic DnD present.

Now, Mind Flayer Group B does what I stated above with Fensir the Wolf. Ragnarok occurs and shit hits the fan. Millenium pass as technology increases and the Planes change. Now, lets say, JUST FOR SHITS AND GIGGLES, that 500,000 years pass..... Mind Flayer Group B has achieved the Empire and are in power, when something goes wrong and they must flee to the past (something that is probably long forgotten; but still ingrained in at LEAST one of the their most powerful elder brains from back when they were MFGroupA).

They now become Mind Flayer Group C.

Heres where it gets REALLY confusing.

Now, Mind Flayer Group C does the Gith thing once again (the origin of the Gith and MF conflict likely LONG forgotten; if the Gith still exist at that point, i really dont know anything about that).... Whatever the case, they want a group of slaves so they create the Gith again, not realizing what they would become..... By this line of thought, over those 500,00+ years, MUCH of the information has been lost about this era of MF history in the past (ie, the DnD classic era during which MF Group B lived).

Finally, as you can expect, Mind Flayer Group C... those poor bastards are back at the point where there are Suns and that pisses them off... They cant figure out how to do it.... and suddenly, one of the oldest elder brains gets this 'random' idea to use Fensir the Wolf....

You see what Im saying?

If alot of time passes between Ragnarok/UPS present and the Illithd Empire (ALOT of time; id say at least a few hundred thousand years)- then the Illithid will FORGET alot of the information... but their elder brains wont....

The Elder Brains wont have 100% memory though... They have minor bits of knowledge gleamed over time that MASSIVE span of time (we are talking like, a million years total here).... And when one suddenly comes up with this great idea to use Fensir the Wolf, the Illithid arent going to question where the Elder Brain got this idea- they will simply follow its plans..... Completely unaware that THIS ISNT THE FIRST TIME THIS HAS HAPPENED!

The real question comes to be, at what point did these humans create the mind flayers during all this? Were they created in the classic DnD present (see below on this issue) or were they created at some point FAR in the past, or FAR in the future; perhaps even BEYOND their Empire's fall- imagine humans creating a slave race, after all those millenium of fighting the Illithid as slaves.... only to find that they CREATED the Illithid to begin with! GAH! WHAT HAVE WE DONE! KILL THEM! CHASE THEM BELOW GROUND!.... And suddenly, they hate the Sun... it it all begins again...

It creates a very "Would I have broken the vase if you hadnt told me I was going to break it?" situation.

Basically, "If you hadnt made me a slave, would I in turn have not created you as my slave?"

Lol, feel like the damn architect from the 2nd Matrix movie.... crazyness.

I personally feel thats an interesting aspect that should never really be tampered with- the Illithid Empire should never actually come to fruition in a DnD game; its the end time, sometime FAR in the future that people from any typical (even UPS I feel) timeline should never really encounter (unless they somehow travel through time to the future, but even then they shouldnt stay there long).... though, a whole different system based during the Illithid Empire might just be a future project for me, now that Im thinking of it.... high tech, extremely dark, mind flayer overlords ruling in vast numbers over even greater numbers of thralls and slaves.

...To be quite honest, my knowledge of Spell-Jammer is limited at best; so Im not entirely clear on the time line that is associated with it: for example, im not clear if the UPS present would be long before or long after the Spell-Jammer era-basically, do the events of Spell-Jammer occur in the far distant past, the DnD present (prior to Ragnarok), or the far post-Ragnarok future?

That bit of history I made above would be considering that the Spell-Jammer world was coninciding with the other DnD timelines prior to Ragnarok- which Im guessing is the case, since you used the Illithid making use of Spell Jammers to remove the suns.

-Dark_Reaction024

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All good

I feel we should have the mind flayers just looping in time, over and over. As for a start or an end, it is the Unity of Rings, there is no beginning and there is no end. So vague reference could be made as to mind flayers being 'created' in the image of god/superbeing etc etc which would have infact been the mind flayers themselves.....or something like that. Very planescpae and very wierd.

As for spell jammer and UPS. I consider spelljammer to be in the same tine frame as normal PS. One of my motivations for shattering the spheres was to allow modern space exploration without the need to take into account crystal spheres and the like. I also did it for irony's stake - the mind flayers (some might say masters of spell jamming) destory the spheres, allowing other races to develop 'normal' sci-fi space travel, loosing their own dominance of 'space' travel....

The mind flayer empire, long long way of off, even from UPS. As a general guideline, I am imagining UPS taking many era/epoch to get from normal to modern. And for MF empire, even more so, something like the restruant at the end of the universe (hitchhikers guide) sort of thing. (As a reference, irl, our own sun is a 3rd generation, meaning that star 1 lived then died, star 2 was born from that death, it lived then died and our sun was born from star's 2 corpse and is about middle age...i think)

-Kal

Kal
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Changes to the Planes

I will try to update my master file of the history I posted with the new ideas about the mind flayers this weekend and post it up on monday, same goes for Pandemonium too if I get the chance.

Kal

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Changes to the Planes

Hey all, just an update. I'm currently working on expanding my wiritings on Changes to the Planes and getting it together so I can submit it to PW.

I dont think I'm gonna use DR's Fenris concept, but I havent made a final decision on that yet.

Also, I'm trying to write it in a fashion of a story told by one of Sigil's bloods to a butch of clueless as a prologue to the setting, as Changes to the Planes is for us who know original planescape - someone coming in fresh wont have a clue about half of the stuff in it, but I hope it will make a nice short story of sorts.

Kal

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Ok, folks, here's the 'At a Glance' changes to the Planes that I'm still working on, but I'm trying to keep things moving, I would really appreciate some feedback on my stuff for this so far, as I've taken it a slightly different direction and i would like to know if people are happy with that direction or not????
________________________

Epoch: The Greta Unhinging
· Plane of Fire cools, multiverse goes into cold Twlight - Mind flayer plot
· Ragnorok happens - All powers are pulled onto the prime world as mortal beings
· Outsiders descend to prime worlds, breaking the Celestial Compact - Blood war erupts onto prime worlds
· Crystal Spheres shatter due to numbers of unbound outsiders on the prime
· Phylon sweeps across prime worlds, drowning them in wild magic - The Maelstrom appears in Astral, destorying the Githyanki Capital and virtually completely cutting off the outer planes, similar storm in the Etheral
· The souls of the dead become trapped on the Astral
· Ragnorok ends, some powers re-ascend, most are dead - Most primes blame powers for ragnorok and wild magic
· Post Ragnorok, primes can not rely on magic, so turn to technology to rebuild - The Wild magic re-ignites the suns
· Celestial Compact reinstated
· Blood War returns to lower planes
· Wild magic begins to slowly seep onto the planes
· Lady’s Decree lifted

Epoch:
· Sigil continues to grow, unlike the rest of the multiverse
· Modrons retreat into Regulus
· Wild magic begins to dissipate - Skies of prime worlds clear
· The Maelstrom begins to lessen - Souls trapped on the Astral begin to reach the outer planes
· Harmonium use Sigil to resupply Ortho using Astral ships - Githyani first resort to piracy against them
· Her Serenity issues pardon to all former mazed victims

Epoch: Revelationary Era
· Githyanki invade Ortho - Driven back by alliance of Harmonium, Fraal and Astral Norse
· Monotheism gains prominence across the Multiverse
· New technology orientated individual powers begin to appear on the Great Wheel
· Modrons re-appear on the Great Wheel

__________________

Ive have a WIP progress write up, but I wont post it up yet, I'll see what folks have to say to this first

Kal

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Changes to the Planes

The only one I'm curious about is the monotheism bit towards the end there. Was there a thread on this that I missed in the previous discussions? I hadn't been under the impression that monotheism was going to be treated as a dominant flavour of religion in UP, but rather as a new alternative.

Kal
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'Ulden Throatbane' wrote:
Getting back to the topic of the thread-the next epoch is the Revelationary Era (play on "Revolutionary Era"), and encompases the transformation of the Planes to their modernized form. Because the history of this era is better preserved, I'm breaking it into early and late periods.

Early Revelationary Era:
-The Astral War begins. The Githyanki, forseeing that the Harmonium will topple their dominance of the silvery void, lay siege to Ortho.
-Dwarves and Gnomes begin settling the Elemental Plane of Earth en masse.
-War of Sun and Dragon: competition for worshipers leads to open conflict between the Japanese and Chinese Pantheons.
-The first factory apprears in Bytopia.
-Skeolah is overthrown by Levistus/Leviathan.
-Monotheist religions gain prominence in the Cosmos.

Late Revelationary Era
-The Harmonium makes an alliance with the Fraal. Together, they beat back the Githyanki.
-War of Hope and Malice is fought between the Guardinals and the 'loths.
-The Elven Pantheon relocates to the Beastland
-Mechanus Reloaded: The Modrons complete their project, leading to the reforming of Mechanus into a more modern format
-On the great wheel, monotheist religions coalese around "common teachings."
-Cyberspace is formed.
-First Contact with the T'sa.

i took it from that bit of work by UT....

i prefer the idea of Powers being individuals, not part of pantheons, not sure why really, i just feel its better.......vague i know but ....maybe because I find it easier to write up Powers as individuals instead of part of a pantheon

I'll change my wording to prominence instead tho Smiling

EDIT: Found this thread when checking through the UPS section, titled Monotheism in UPS.....

/forum

Kal

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Changes to the Planes

I can't say I know the details of the damnation of Toril, but it may be important to note that damned is not the same as doomed.

It was mentioned earlier that Toril is one of the most fleshed out primes in Dnd. We could use that information, and reformat it, into a world that isn't so much destroyed as it is colonized by Hell.

You could still have adventures there, but if you want to play a good aligned party it will probably have a 'viva le resistance' feel to it.

Kal
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At least for me, I'm not particularly looking to write any info for specific prime world(s) - and I'm not gonna mention any specific prime world(s) in my own writing for changes to the planes, apart from Ortho and even that only has a very small mention (sort of need to say where the Githyankyi invaded...)

Writing a altered Toril would take a lot of effort to detail and could be another project by itself really Urban Realms :mrgreen:

Kal

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