Changes to the Planes

I like the idea of using Ragnarok. And I agree that it doesn't have to be a literal, exact occurence of Ragnarok as described in Norse myth - how often has Planescape taken a real-world myth and then warped it to suit its own purposes? I do think having some sort of Fimbulwinter would be nice, though, just because I think 'Fimbulwinter' is a really cool word.

What if the elemental plane of Fire were the 'sun' being swallowed? I've been playing towards that in a PBEM I'm running.

The first quoted point sounds interesting, but a bit unclear. In what way do the Factions begin thinking of themselves as Sigilians first? Many of them potentially would have home bases off Sigil, and while I can see the idea of a 'golden age' where everyone admires the works from the period, I don't quite figure out if you are trying to imply Faction cooperation.

Does the second of the points I've quoted mean a near-total withdrawal of the Modrons from the rest of the Planes? Or is there something I'm missing? Is there supposed to be any specific reason why the Modrons and Regulus withdrew?

The other points are interesting and make some degree of sense. I especially like the idea of a civil war within the elemental planes, as well as the rise of more pantheons to power amongst the planes.

Random Speculation:
If a catastrophe is truly needed to shake up the Planes, one potential catastrophe for the Outer Planes is the loss of belief. There's a famous quote that "Any sufficiently advanced technology is is indistinguishable from magic." There's also a joking corollary that the converse could also be true: "Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology." If Primes are discovered that have experienced a great deal of technological innovation without the presence of magic, or ones that have blended technology and magic and have taken both to a high level, their new presence on the Planes might be enough to alter belief considerably, serving as a "wake-up call" to the inhabitants of other planes, and perhaps fermenting a disbelief in magic. Essentially, it could throw the Outer Planes into disorder, until either belief in both magic AND technology became common and stabilized the Planes at a different technical level than the previous, or simply acted as an extinction event for the whole of the Outer Planes. (which wouldn't be the case, of course, for the storyline of UP)

Since the official storyline has the introduction of formerly nearly magic-less Primes to the Planes, and thus, the introduction of technology to the Planes and magic to the Primes, there's an instant 'in' to this class of storyline effect. It also means that the the Githyanki invasion could have been either planned to produce this kind of havoc (something the Yugoloths might have done, by influencing the illithids) or that it was essentially an entirely unintentional side-effect which ended up being stronger in terms of changes than the intentional one. The Athar, , were they to learn of the actual history would probably be quite interested, as would most of the planar powers, gods, and cosmic entities that have vested interests in various planar happenings.

The Athar, if they're still around, might even go so far as to be aligned with the Doomguard and the Dustmen as a result of this. I could see at least some of them them renouncing magic and technology as extensions of the deceptions of the planar powers... Now not only are some viewed as heretics, but as luddites, and as almost pathologically unwilling to accept anything they don't directly sense as truth. Of course, that might lead to a splitting of the theist and atheist factions into separate factions too. The Doomguard would take this as simply another sign of the inevitable decay and entropy of life, and probably wouldn't be terribly affected by this, I would think or at least I feel they would be the least affected overall of the factions, though they might change quite a bit visibly. The Dusties might take it in a positive manner, feeling that it meant that they are one step closer to True Death. The other factions might be affected, but not in manners as central to the core tenets, save for perhaps the Xaositects, and some of the Sensates and the more disbelieving of the Athar are perhaps likely to join into a new faction with aspects of both.

As a result, you could start with the characters in their D&D forms, and suddenly, there's a new "history" which everyone remembers, faintly, but as if it happened a long time ago, which subjectively, it would have. THe stuff they personally did is recalled in it's "new" form, which would be appropriately modern, while famous exploits are recalled in tales and song. Characters would believe that they are descendents of the medieval-like era versions of themselves. People's plots and the like would simply have updated themselves, as well as deities and powers formed by the presence of the planes. Most beings wouldn't change in terms of their essential natures, but perhaps the exact particulars might change. Paladins might become a soldier with some divine training, and some more technologically-minded arcanists might become masters of the technical arts.

You're right ofcourse. Sorry if I seemed a bit hostile, that wasn't my intention. I was just rather uncertain, and since english isn't my main language, I sometimes have great difficulties getting my thoughts through the way I want them to get through.

A non-literal Ragnarok, eh? Hmm, when you put it that way.
And let's say for a moment that some Norse gods would dissappear - this would still leave the power vacuum, which would have to be filled with either another deity or a set of new deities altogether. Belief needs to find its home, and all that. I'm sure Terry Pratchett's novels could explain it far better.
But now that you mention it, a customized Ragnarok could be used to usher the Nordic pantheon to the 21st century. Evolve or die for them, so to speak.

Now I'm starting to understand why such an event or something akin to it would be needed. And you are right, the Prime worlds are notoriously set to the fantasy era of sword and magic - the Realms even have an explanation for it somewhere.

Though, if the sudden industrialization would start in the planes instead of the Prime spheres, the Primes would be forced to follow, or witness the attacks of Baatezu platoons with sniper rifles and assault rifles.

Yes, I noticed that sidenote. Apparently someone in a position to make such decisions, too. But though the Realms do have some things people find annoying - the Chosen, Mystra giving Asmodeus the laugh (though WAS IT Asmodeus after all?) - it's the campaign setting that first got me into roleplaying, and then lead me to the planes.
And since it is one of the most fleshed out of the Primes, and one with a large variety of deities and other elements that have affected the planes in small ways, I think it's a waste to throw them away.
Maybe customize and change even heavy handedly, but total doom in the angry hands of Asmodeus would IMO be an overkill.

And sorry again, I should've waited for more info before starting to type. Now that your idea's are more fleshed out, I'm starting to like them.

I'm with Earth and other Shadow Primes that were regaining magic, and had modern (or better) levels of technology emerging onto the planes (i.e. the Astral War story).

Primes with Nuclear rockets controlling their entire sphere (something we're actually capable of doing safely today, and something that hasn't happened largely because of the hysteria surrounding nuclear technology in our society), cyberpunk primes, steampunk primes, and so on.

Actually, most of the people that voted were for Earth. 75% in fact. 50% were for alternate dimension Earths, as well. Stop lieing.

Alternate Earths includes the one we live on, berk! Are you stupid, or just blind? It's just that it also includes a bunch of alternates, as well as completely different Primes of similar technology and lack of magic. Only someone who's blatently ignoring that blindingly obvious fact could possibly interpret the data any other way.

I like most of the outline history. Indeed, my only issue with this is that as a new plane, cyberspace should probably be discovered. Stylistically, 'discovered' raises questions where 'formed' gives answers - and questions are a good part of what drives plots.

And so continues the reply notification spam. If it's getting truly hideous, sorry, all.

'Ulden Throatbane' wrote:

I concede that "Total Doom to FR" would be overkill, and it simply answers one example of fanboyism (mystra pwns lol) with one that is just as obnoxious (asmodeus pwns lol). Mabye we can downgrade to "partial doom" or "impending doom."

I would vote for a "partial doom", of being sucked off through the shadow plane and forming its own cosmology. It fits with the canon that has been established for FR in 3e.

It is no longer easily reachable from the PS cosmology, but it still exists, if you can find your way through the shadow plane to get there. (And there might even be some shadow portals that still work that lead there directly.)

This kind of thing also allows for some interesting storyline of what happens to some of the gods when a large number of their followers dissappear from the known multiverse.

Hey all. I've writtern a history of the changes that the multiverse goes through, trying to use what has been posted here and elsewhere. Just a heads up, I'm not a huge canon sage, so somethings may not fit quite right, but this is a draft i did today and want to get some feedback on (and see if the ball is still rolling for UPS ) After the main text, i'll explain a bit more about some of the decisions in the text, anyways, here it is so far......................
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Ragnorok was it. It was the driving force that changed the planes…forever. It started with Illithids. A conclave of elder brains sort to bring eternal twilight to the prime worlds so that their kind could dominate the surface worlds. They used long forgotten magitech (spell jammers) to fly to the suns themselves. They sucked the fires from those suns and unknowly plunged the entire multiverse into winter. Though their plans were stopped before they could finish their schemes, the damage hand been done. Winter enveloped the prime worlds. Prophecy came to pass, paranoia crept through mortal and immortal alike and Loki brang Baldr low.

Overwhelming belief that Ragnorok had come brings about Ragnorok. The Powers disappeared over night from the Great Wheel. Quickly, they are found upon the prime worlds, still powerful, but now mortal! Opportunity knocks, old rivalry’s from millennia past now find themselves being played out with very permanent consequences. Rumours spread that to cure the long winter, those once Powers must be struck down so a new dawn may rise. The outsiders, seeing their former masters in such positions can not sit ideally by. They break the Celestial Compact and descend to the prime worlds. Some to protect their former masters, others to kill them. The blood war quickly finds new battlefields and new recruits upon the primes. The snows of winter are turned red with blood, Powers, Primes, Proxies, it matters not.

With their attention given fully to their battles, the outsiders forget the reasoning behind the Celestial Compact. The crystal spheres that protect the prime worlds can not withstand the cosmic energies of those beings. And so, what none thought would ever come to pass happens. The crystal sphere crack and shatter! The Phylon that the crystal spheres have held at bay since time immoral surges across the worlds of the prime material plane like a great Tsunami. With it comes wild magic, wild magic of the likes never seen in the memory of many of the Powers. It warps the very worlds, where moments before the long winter with its biting winds was chilling the bones from a weary warrior, the worlds now exploded with summer winds, spring rains and autumn fogs, sometimes simultaneously. The skies above their worlds cascade in a concoughanyof colours, blocking out the sun, the moon and the stars themselves. Where the battle lines had been forming, they were now in chaos once more, as Powers, Primes and Planars find themselves in a wash of anarchy as the magics transforms allies and enemies into shapeless monsters of madness. Upon the Great Wheel, the only sign of the troubles upon the prime is that all mirrors upon the Great Wheel shatter simultaneously. Later, as wild magic begins to seep into the Great Wheel with the deaths of those upon the primes, the Modrons monitor its increases, and then, as one, return to Regulas and shut down.

The prime worlds endure the chaos. The wild magic do allow a few of the Powers to regain their divine heritage and return to the Great Wheel. But even there, they realise the true extent of Ragnorok. The prime has been devastated, mortals hang on to life on the fringes of their worlds. The returning Powers quickly reinact the Celestial Compact, in a desperate bid to stop the warring. It works, for the most part, but, its too little too late for most mortals. As they attempt to recreate some sense of civilisation, they hold the Powers and magic as responsible for the devastation of their worlds. Magic is still a dangerous force, one which few if any attempt to manipulate.

The skies begin to return, the wild magics dissipating, but the stars that greet the weary survivors are not the same as their ancestors once knew, as the warping effect of the crystal spheres on distant stars is no longer there. Many mortals abandon the Powers, turning to the immediate problem of surviving. In the millennia to come, many mortals turn to Monotheism and philosophy based beliefs, but enough continue to remember the remaining Powers for them to endure.

Upon the Great Wheel, the blood war returns to the lower planes, as Bataazu strike forces use the open planes of Hades and Genhenna to hit deep into the abyss, forcing the Tanaari to meet them in battle on the lower planes, instead of the shattered prime worlds. In Sigil, the Lady’s decree is lifted and factions return to the city. The Great Wheel begins to feel the effects of the wild magic upon the prime worlds, as portals to the primes become more unpredictable and in the Astral, its silvery void becomes stormy and unstable. The Githyanki endure the changes to the Astral, using it to become stronger. The Harmonium, using their newly restored access to Sigil, use it to resupply and support their ravaged homeworld of Ortho. As the portals to and from the prime world are so rough, the Harmonium use Astral ships to navigate the silvery viod to bring large supply vessels to Ortho. The Githyanki, seeing their dominance of the Astral being challenged by the Harmonium, first resort to piracy against the shipping lanes and then launch a full scale invasion of Ortho. And though the Githyanki warrior mages can not employ their full range of abilities upon the prime, the Githyanki make deep thrusts into Ortho’s fragile, recovering civilisation. It is only with an alliance with the Fraal that the Harmonium endures the Githyanki attacks and then eventually drive them back into the Astral, though the Harmonium and Fraal take too many causalities to pursue their enemy, and their resources were still needed to continue to restore Ortho.

Back upon the primes what began as Monotheism slowly grows into what the less educated perceive as a god and so the Great Wheel slowly recovers with new Powers forming. However, these new Powers are unlike their predecessors, as their worshippers have had to turn to technology, instead of magic, to survive their dangerous worlds, even though during the intervening millennia, magic has once more stabilised. With the subsidence of wild magic upon the prime and with the most orderly primes being at the forefront of the this technological innovation, Regulas finally reboots, and the Modrons return to the Great Wheel. Regulas has been updated far beyond what most primes worlds have achieved technological, with the Modrons also being sufficiently advanced. There return marks what most sages consider to be the beginning of the technological era upon the Great Wheel. With more modern powers that are familiar with technology and with the stabilising of the wild magics, making the portals to an from the primes more stable once more, the Great Wheel once more sees an increase in primes travelling (mostly inadvertently originally) to explore the cosmo, bringing with them their technology and beliefs.
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So then, erm, i guess point one. The shattering of crystal spheres. One, it gives me a way to introduce loads of wild magic to the primes without using limbo as a source, plus it allows 'modern' technological exploration of space like in the real world. I have very little knowledge of spell jamming, but I hope what i wrote is acceptable from that point. Having it linked to shattering of mirrors on the Great Wheel is a vague hope of trying to tie some UPS backstory in with the new post faction war stuff just started up after gencon.

Point two, I figured excessive wild magic would be a very good reason why not to use magic, but instead look to technology. Simple.

Ragnorok - like the use of it, and included FR time of troubles (as time lines of campagins arent all at point C, you could use this event as ToT on Faerun) style to give a way of removing a lot of the old patheons, allowing new, indepentent powers a way in (which i think would help UPS - as i dont think tight pantheons would exsist so much)

Celestial Compact - I view this as outsiders need special rituals (summoning magic) to 'contain' their powerful essences on the primes worlds to stop them overloading them. When they descend to the primes without those rituals (even LGs, as they put some proities higher than others) this gives me a way to crack the spheres without one big uber bad guy doing it.

The blood war - i didnt like that it stopped. Instead having it really spill out on the primes seems bad enough, then its the Bataazu (lawful) who force it back onto the outer planes.

Githyanki - i think having a Astral pirate angle is cool. You might have guessed that I have no idea about the Astral war stuff done or who the Fraal or T'sua are hope what I came up with is alright fomr that point???

Modrons - i say their more advanced, cos, well their modrons. I didnt want to decsribe them though, as I'm not sure if they shouold be bio-clockwork construct (steampunk), bioelectrical (cybrogs) or just classic modrons...

The advanced tech bit - I figure that the 'modern' level of tech is the average tech level of the primes and is the most easily achievable - and when it works, why bother fixing it, hence its the most common, but there are different levels of tech, as i feel this gives GMs and players the freedom to create more varying stories within the setting.

The war of hope and malice - no idea what that is, so i left it out atm....

Again, a lot of the pantheon stuff i left out as i feel that 'racial' pantheons shouldnt be and as writiers, including even past earth pantheons is treading on thin ice a bit and I feel that we have an opportunity to create new and interesting powers anyways, might as well make use of it.

Also, the Skeolah bit i have no clue about.

I love the idea of a cyberspace plane, just didnt think it needed to be in that text and nexus, im not really clued up enough about....

final point, having the primes hit hard gives the opportunity to link in the rumoured 4e core setting (ignoring its cosmo tho) - which is point of lights within the darkness (or so such odd description of lots of wilderness and few hubs of civilisation here and there).

well, thats it, i some folks with give me feedback on it.....

Kal

I will try to update my master file of the history I posted with the new ideas about the mind flayers this weekend and post it up on monday, same goes for Pandemonium too if I get the chance.

Kal

Ok, folks, here's the 'At a Glance' changes to the Planes that I'm still working on, but I'm trying to keep things moving, I would really appreciate some feedback on my stuff for this so far, as I've taken it a slightly different direction and i would like to know if people are happy with that direction or not????
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Epoch: The Greta Unhinging
· Plane of Fire cools, multiverse goes into cold Twlight - Mind flayer plot
· Ragnorok happens - All powers are pulled onto the prime world as mortal beings
· Outsiders descend to prime worlds, breaking the Celestial Compact - Blood war erupts onto prime worlds
· Crystal Spheres shatter due to numbers of unbound outsiders on the prime
· Phylon sweeps across prime worlds, drowning them in wild magic - The Maelstrom appears in Astral, destorying the Githyanki Capital and virtually completely cutting off the outer planes, similar storm in the Etheral
· The souls of the dead become trapped on the Astral
· Ragnorok ends, some powers re-ascend, most are dead - Most primes blame powers for ragnorok and wild magic
· Post Ragnorok, primes can not rely on magic, so turn to technology to rebuild - The Wild magic re-ignites the suns
· Celestial Compact reinstated
· Blood War returns to lower planes
· Wild magic begins to slowly seep onto the planes
· Lady’s Decree lifted

Epoch:
· Sigil continues to grow, unlike the rest of the multiverse
· Modrons retreat into Regulus
· Wild magic begins to dissipate - Skies of prime worlds clear
· The Maelstrom begins to lessen - Souls trapped on the Astral begin to reach the outer planes
· Harmonium use Sigil to resupply Ortho using Astral ships - Githyani first resort to piracy against them
· Her Serenity issues pardon to all former mazed victims

Epoch: Revelationary Era
· Githyanki invade Ortho - Driven back by alliance of Harmonium, Fraal and Astral Norse
· Monotheism gains prominence across the Multiverse
· New technology orientated individual powers begin to appear on the Great Wheel
· Modrons re-appear on the Great Wheel

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Ive have a WIP progress write up, but I wont post it up yet, I'll see what folks have to say to this first

Kal

i took it from that bit of work by UT....

i prefer the idea of Powers being individuals, not part of pantheons, not sure why really, i just feel its better.......vague i know but ....maybe because I find it easier to write up Powers as individuals instead of part of a pantheon

I'll change my wording to prominence instead tho

EDIT: Found this thread when checking through the UPS section, titled Monotheism in UPS.....

/forum

Kal

At least for me, I'm not particularly looking to write any info for specific prime world(s) - and I'm not gonna mention any specific prime world(s) in my own writing for changes to the planes, apart from Ortho and even that only has a very small mention (sort of need to say where the Githyankyi invaded...)

Writing a altered Toril would take a lot of effort to detail and could be another project by itself really Urban Realms :mrgreen:

Kal